Better Dumb Enemies: Infested Analysis U14

[notionphil]

Community response is split on the Infested changes of U14

 

It is clear that the "Forget Better Ai - We Need Better Dumb Enemies" thread had a significant influence on DE creating interesting enemy interactions/behaviors with the new infested. However, community response is rather split on the changes.

 

We have the usual "gitgud" contingent finding some new allies who agree that the new infested post a more exciting  challenge without being "unfair". (aka: DO U EVEN DODGE)

 

Then we have the "whiners" finding new allies who agree that the infested are now more "punishing" than before and need serious nerfs. (aka: OMG ANCIENT PULL OP PLS NURF)

 

How do we make sense of this? Did DE make the right call or drop the ball?

 

change list:

 

Infested Faction Changes:

• All Crawlers move speed has been increased.
• New animations for Infested Ancient reach attack.
• Electric Crawler Attack range fixed, now more likely to attack with his lightning.
• Lobber Crawler has new effects on his lobbed grenade, making it easier to see.
• Infested Charger move speed increased.
• Suicide Runners will no longer explode on death if killed by melee. The death explosion causes stagger, and damage scales up with their level.
• Infested Leapers: Their leaping attack can be parried to nullify the stagger. Leap damage scales with their level.
• All Ancients can pull targets (Pull can be blocked or dodged).
• All Ancients - better anticipation of knockdown attack. It can now be parried to nullify damage and the knockdown.
• Toxic Ancients - Do poison damage and gives all nearby enemies poison damage. Ancient and nearby enemies are resistant to poison and gas damage.
• Healing Ancients - Links with nearby allies, any damage they take heals the Ancient up to 150% health, and it scales up to reflect having health > 100%. Also reduces damage that nearby allies take.
• Healing Ancient now has Fossilized health, to be consistent with the other Ancients (was Infested Armour).
• Leaper infested can dodge.
• Disruptor Ancients - Aura that reduces radial and power damage taken by nearby allies. Attack damage energy, rather than completely drain it. Attacks of nearby allies have the same effect.

 

My Take: Infested 2.0 is a Diamond in the Rough

 

The Infested are now an undulating sea of terror that you must deftly navigate to stay afloat. Ancients grapple you into their painful but fair (on paper) auras. Runners and leapers can stagger you if your reflexes aren't up to par. And Mutalists clouds sting, but have either been nerfed or...something has changed...because they are no longer a death sentence.

 

For the first time ever (and more than the other factions) the infested feel like a team. In their case, a hivemind with each individually lacking unit playing its role for the greater good. Wow.

 

Run for your life Tenno, the scourge that is bringing the galaxy to its knees is now something to be feared. Not everything is perfect though, tweaks are definitely needed.

 

Old Fears (and bugs) Die Hard

 

The patch notes describe a fair faction. However, our "fears" of the old infested are still ingrained and bugs seem to exist.

 

Players still fear the Mutalist Cloud as they did immediately after release, when it was a guaranteed one-hit-KO for any frame short of Valkyr. We also fear the Ancient Disruptor aura, thinking a single hit will mean being stripped of all power for good.

 

I have experienced behavior inconsistent with patch notes, and had over 300 energy drained by a Disruptor. The effect still "looks" the same. Thus, it's reasonable that we're reacting to the new attacks with the fear of the old reprocussions.

 

Time, tweaks, bug fixes and better communications can change this.

 

What Didn't Work

 

Anything unavoidable is bad. The sheer volume of the infested hoarde means you're bound to be surrounded by exploding runners, bounding leapers and toxic clouds, all the while Ancients are ready to scorpion you from behind the crowd, unavoidably pulling you into their aura.

 

If you notice, in the Forget Better Ai - We Need Better Dumb Enemies thread, one main trend is that I gave most enemies DEFENSIVE powers, to help them better resist our overwhelming offense. DE has given most of the infested better OFFENSIVE powers.

 

While I don't think that's inherently "wrong", the issue is that interaction between offensive powers can easily lead to unavoidable hits - which equals frustration.

 

 

How To Improve Infested (and enemies in general going forward)?

 

• Remember that when you add complexity, you need to adjust spawn rates/XP rewards and enemy density calculations. Killing 10 mindless waddling ancients at a time was a simple button press. New ancients should probably be more rare and worth more XP. You don't need 10 at a time to make combat challenging anymore.
   
• Make sure enemies' attacks behave as intended. Make sure energy drain is progressive as stated in patch notes, and any bugs there are fixed.

   

• A telegraph only works if you can see it. Does the Ancient Scorpion arm need to go? No, actually it's great. But you need to be able to shoot while being dragged, and a single shot to the ancient should cause them to drop you. Give ways to avoid punishment.

   

• Remember that every single enemy doesn't need to be "interesting". It's great for a few enemy combos to mix up gameplay, but we don't need every enemy to stagger, stun, kd, shock, poison or drain.

   

• Defense can be more interesting than offense. It give us a chance to "problem solve" in real time. Yes, you added defensive auras, which I personally love (on paper) at least; we still need more skillshots, flanks etc. Stacking offensive abilities usually = unavoidable hits.
   

Challenge can stem from a few special enemies or occasional difficulty spikes to test our skills; it doesn't require a constant run for our lives! All in all, I'm happy with the changes and feel that the playerbase will grow to U14 Infested as well, but please continue to tweak.

 

DE, thank you for the changes, thank you for future tweaks, and thank you for listening.

Edited July 21, 2014 by notionphil

[Metalarcher]

New infested are more dangerous, for sure, and that's cool and all, I like the way this is going, but...

 

The Mutalist Osprey gas clouds are still nigh-invisible, unless my settings are doing something to make them like that. T^T

[RobWasHere]

I personally like the changes, people don't know how to avoid fartbomber so there is a frustration. Ancient also wont grapple you if you are strafing.

[KairaSilvermist]

I love infested as theya re right now, a threat, but your post and how you've explained it... jsut here, take my +1!

 

and yes, Defensive Abilities for infgested would be good!

 

It used to be a mindless warm of Termagants, now we have some Zoanthropes moving about, directing the horde, and giving them various increases in stats, what we need now is a true foe that gives full-on Defensive buffs, a Hive Tyrant or a BroodLord, if you will allow me this analogy.

 

Related, DE, plz Mutalist Osprey Hat for myhead? :3

[Viverim]

I've only run one infested mission so far, but i thought that the new version of the infested worked far better than the old.  Still not fond of multiple stagger results, but Runners don't explode when you melee them, so you can avoid most chain staggers (so far).  I was most pleased with the change to the Disruptors no longer draining all energy in a single hit.  Very good change.  Still too much toxic auto-health damage.  It makes me only take a Rejuvenation aura, which means all of the work on the other auras is completely worthless.

 

just my first impressions.

[notionphil]

I've only run one infested mission so far, but i thought that the new version of the infested worked far better than the old.  Still not fond of multiple stagger results, but Runners don't explode when you melee them, so you can avoid most chain staggers (so far).  I was most pleased with the change to the Disruptors no longer draining all energy in a single hit.  Very good change.  Still too much toxic auto-health damage.  It makes me only take a Rejuvenation aura, which means all of the work on the other auras is completely worthless.

 

just my first impressions.

 

Agreed, much improved.

 

Also agreed that toxic is/was really annoying and DE is relying on it too much. From my testing, it appears nerfed though - I'm not getting one-hit-killed or anything even like that now.

Edited July 21, 2014 by notionphil

[Riccoshot]

- Unnecessary Scorpion-style pull on Ancients, since there's still an Infested MOA concept that should fill the niche of ranged infested unit.

- Broken Volatile Runners that worked absolutely fine only in Damge 1.0 - there was a quick struggle animation before they exploded and deal damage, now this is an unavoidable broken explosion radius.

- Disruptor & Toxic are okay even with auras.

- Healers grant at least 50% (from what i've tested) resist which is pretty absurd already and healing themselves from the damage linked targets take - RIP explosive weapons.

- General wave composition problems, absurd amount of $&*&*#(%& Ospreys S#&$ting everywhere, and their hitboxes that are still not perfect, which makes you choose anything that have AoE to kill them.

 

Oh wait, now Loki is even better since he disarms Mutalists, all hail master race.

Infested in the current state makes you count only on yourself. Since if you have a random party that 80% of the time have 0 synergy, you'll end as soon as Toxin damage and procs will be everywhere around you.

 

Generally, that's DE problem - either to over-buff or over-nerf (this is related to anything that exists in the game).

And currently Infested are a bit over the top. I would say they're more broken on how they work rather damage-wise.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Riccoshot

[Liminal]

I would have preferred high damage Volatile Runners to even more stagger, but well ... the changes are an overall improvement to the Infested. Some tweaking would be welcome anyway.

[notionphil]

 

- General wave composition problems, absurd amount of $&*&*#(%& Ospreys S#&$ting everywhere, ith their hitboxes that are still not perfect, which [makes you rely on AoE]

 

This is the only thing you stated that I agree with as an unavoidable issue. Everything else you mentioned can honestly be addressed with target prioritization.

 

-Melee Volatile Runners or back away before shooting them (but i do agree the explo should delay more)

-Shoot ancients first

-don't use explosives on healers or powers on disruptors.

 

We can't expect more interesting enemies if we aren't willing to adjust our playstyles from press-4-or-mouse-to-win

 

EDIT - added more agreement :D

Edited July 21, 2014 by notionphil

[notionphil]

I would have preferred high damage Volatile Runners to even more stagger, but well ... the changes are an overall improvement to the Infested. Some tweaking would be welcome anyway.

 

Yes, i would have preferred a slower explosion animation, which would allow you to use gunplay + reflexes

[Renegade343]

DE(L) has not yet fixed one problem: Chargers. 

 

The description does not fit the actual thing. Chargers do not do much fast swiping, but they hit like a truck. I would prefer multiple fast swipes with actual weak damage from multiple Chargers, just to get the feeling of being swarmed. 

[notionphil]

DE(L) has not yet fixed one problem: Chargers. 

 

The description does not fit the actual thing. Chargers do not do much fast swiping, but they hit like a truck. I would prefer multiple fast swipes with actual weak damage from multiple Chargers, just to get the feeling of being swarmed. 

 

That would make even more sense now, as the runners and leapers do deal "burst" damage.

[S7ORM]

New infested are more dangerous, for sure, and that's cool and all, I like the way this is going, but...

 

The Mutalist Osprey gas clouds are still nigh-invisible, unless my settings are doing something to make them like that. T^T

Definitely your settings.

I'm running on the lowest settings, and they appear as virtually a big green cloud blocking my view.

[Varzy]

Disruptors are draining all our energy because their attacks can proc Magnetic, which damages shields but also reduces Energy to 0. I don't know if it's a bug they haven't fixed or intentional, but it really needs attention.

[Metalarcher]

Definitely your settings.

I'm running on the lowest settings, and they appear as virtually a big green cloud blocking my view.

Anyone know which setting it is?  Especially on Orokin Derelicts, the cloud is so sparse and translucent and the yellowish wavy lines don't appear much (though I doubt that's due to my graphical settings).

 

EDIT:  Though come to think of it, this is still a problem; graphical settings shouldn't affect readability during gameplay under any circumstance...  Hopefully that gets ironed out.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Metalarcher

[Aramanth]

Disruptors are draining all our energy because their attacks can proc Magnetic, which damages shields but also reduces Energy to 0. I don't know if it's a bug they haven't fixed or intentional, but it really needs attention.

 

Sounds intentional.  Imagine what'd they be like without the threat of disarming you of energy.  Even the healer ancients are a major threat now, these guys would just be cannon fodder without disruption.

[Varzy]

Sounds intentional.  Imagine what'd they be like without the threat of disarming you of energy.  Even the healer ancients are a major threat now, these guys would just be cannon fodder without disruption.

They're not supposed to totally drain energy anymore, though. Plus, their aura now gives other infested energy drain, so it feels balanced.

 

I'm more annoyed about how the Magnetic proc on our frames is too powerful, since it's been advertised as a shield-reducer ala Viral, not an energy drainer.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Varzy

[Aramanth]

They're not supposed to totally drain energy anymore, though. Plus, their aura now gives other infested energy drain, so it feels balanced.

 

I'm more annoyed about how the Magnetic proc on our frames is too powerful, since it's been advertised as a shield-reducer ala Viral, not an energy drainer.

 

That's understandable, but when you consider 99% of the infested are close range fighters it makes sense that getting that close to them would be that dangerous.  My general strategy is to get as far away from them as possible and carpet bomb the crap out of them as they get closer.  Even my Valkyr has a tough time slicing infested up, and she's made specifically for melee!

 

Bottomline is, intentional or not I can live with disruptors sucking away all your energy just by touching you.  They still have that annoying 100% knockdown proc that is really fast and difficult to avoid, so I just figure they're not to be fought that close.

[notionphil]

Disruptors are draining all our energy because their attacks can proc Magnetic, which damages shields but also reduces Energy to 0. I don't know if it's a bug they haven't fixed or intentional, but it really needs attention.

 

And this is why RNG really shouldn't play a role in an action game. There's so much going on that we're unable to tell what happened or why.

[Falchoin]

The problem with Valkyr against infested now is Hysteria doesn't mitigate or prevent the energy drain from disruptor buffed infested.

 

But hey, at least now I have a reason to dust off Trinity.  Link protects from the energy drain on hit so I can still melee without too many problems.  Add in Energy Vampire for perma-channeling and Blessing for the emergency heals and it's almost like she's useful!

[Mokkania]

How To Improve Infested (and enemies in general going forward)?

 

• Remember that when you add complexity, you need to adjust spawn rates/XP rewards and enemy density calculations. Killing 10 mindless waddling ancients at a time was a simple button press. New ancients should probably be more rare and worth more XP. You don't need 10 at a time to make combat challenging anymore.

   

• Make sure enemies' attacks behave as intended. Make sure energy drain is progressive as stated in patch notes, and any bugs there are fixed.

   

• A telegraph only works if you can see it. Does the Ancient Scorpion arm need to go? No, actually it's great. But you need to be able to shoot while being dragged, and a single shot to the ancient should cause them to drop you. Give ways to avoid punishment.

   

• Remember that every single enemy doesn't need to be "interesting". It's great for a few enemy combos to mix up gameplay, but we don't need every enemy to stagger, stun, kd, shock, poison or drain.

   

• Defense can be more interesting than offense. It give us a chance to "problem solve" in real time. Yes, you added defensive auras, which I personally love (on paper) at least; we still need more skillshots, flanks etc. Stacking offensive abilities usually = unavoidable hits.

quite well detailed, that's rare. (in a general sense)

[SableSonata]

I hate the new infested, because they gave them all abilities that aren't fun, and don't require any thought to get around. Literally the only strategy required is keep moving, and kill everything as fast as possible. Players don't like direct-to health damage? Give them more direct-to-health damage. Players don't like unavoidable energy drain? Now even being near infested can drain your energy. Players don't like the knockdown mechanics? Now half of the infested can knock you down from long distances. 

 

There's no challenge involved; infested are now a pure numbers game; DPS is king, because the only way to avoid their attacks and abilities is to kill them faster. 

 

Having 30 infested attacking at a time, combined with Warframes visually-noisy aesthetic makes prioritizing targets nearly impossible, and even then, when it throws 3-4 ancients at you at a time, prioritizing doesn't matter as much as simply killing everything faster so they can't use their nigh-unavoidable attacks. 

[notionphil]

I hate the new infested, because they gave them all abilities that aren't fun, and don't require any thought to get around. Literally the only strategy required is keep moving, and kill everything as fast as possible. Players don't like direct-to health damage? Give them more direct-to-health damage. Players don't like unavoidable energy drain? Now even being near infested can drain your energy. Players don't like the knockdown mechanics? Now half of the infested can knock you down from long distances. 

 

There's no challenge involved; infested are now a pure numbers game; DPS is king, because the only way to avoid their attacks and abilities is to kill them faster. 

 

Having 30 infested attacking at a time, combined with Warframes visually-noisy aesthetic makes prioritizing targets nearly impossible, and even then, when it throws 3-4 ancients at you at a time, prioritizing doesn't matter as much as simply killing everything faster so they can't use their nigh-unavoidable attacks. 

 

While I don't agree with you, I would like to hear ideas of which sorts of changes you would have preferred the infested to have.

[Liminal]

While I don't agree with you, I would like to hear ideas of which sorts of changes you would have preferred the infested to have.

He/she does have a point: the new infested changes encourage Pentas and Antimatter Drops (at least for me).

 

"Screw that! No way I'm diving into that horde with this Tigris and Nikana". 

- All my frames.

 

:P

[SableSonata]

While I don't agree with you, I would like to hear ideas of which sorts of changes you would have preferred the infested to have.

Well, instead of knocking you down, the ancients' long range attack could instead lock you in place, forcing you to shoot their hand in order to break free. Since Chargers and Runners pose no threat as long as you can jog, this would present a danger, while also not locking the player into a long, drawn-out animation where they have no control. And since they have pretty absurd range, it would feel less unfair when an ancient hit you from across the room because now you can actually do something about it. 

 

The disruption effect could just prevent the use of powers (or decrease their efficiency) temporarily, instead of just taking away all your energy. As far as the aura goes, the HUD distortion effect might be good by itself.

 

Replace Toxic damage with Corrosive damage, increase the damage, and make the Mutalists' clouds small enough that you can roll to the side and not still be in the AoE. You should be punished for running into the cloud or staying in the cloud, not just because you happened to be in the huge, almost-instant AoE and you get stuck with a status effect that's going to deal 200-300 unavoidable damage straight to health. 

 

Give Runners and Leapers some physical armour (like the Shield Lancers) to protect them somewhat from the front (this armour would only be effective against ranged weapons). 

 

Give special crawlers the ability to buff allies with their damage type (except toxic).

 

That's just off the top of my head. 

 

The current updated infested is just more unavoidable attacks with irritating effects that can only be solved by increasing DPS. only the Ancient Healer really adds anything that requires any thought, and even then, it can be overcome easily by higher DPS..