Better Dumb Enemies: Infested Analysis U14

[notionphil]

These changes are indeed definitly a step in the right direction.

But I feel that complete loss of control is just like immunity : whoever uses them, the other is unable to fight back. These two kind of abilities are just fun destroyers; bad design.

The stagger from Runners being a (short) complete loss of control, I'm not a big fan. I'd rather have a partial loss of control. For instance, the explosion could project some slime, snaring us for a few seconds.

And, as suggested before, the hook (from ancients or scorpions) should not prevent us from shooting (only secondary weapons, like during bleedouts?). Or, allows us to cut the "rope" with the melee weapon (but it could be weird to cut it with a hammer or a whip, so, maybe use melee to just free).

Regarding the Ospreys, I do not see any big issue. A bigger hitbox would be nice. Maybe putting the gas cloud on the floor (a bit like Oberon's Hallowed Ground) would make it easier to avoid. But, since as long as we move, we take zero to one tick, I feel it's fine.

The biggest limitation to Infested remains pathfinding. Any bottleneck greatly reduces their offensive capacity (more than other factions, who tend to fallback/wait). And solving this point might prove difficult (because they all walk and all melee... wall/ceiling crawling for crawlers?)

 

I agree with this...I'd rather have a slow than a stagger. And we desperately need to be able to cut the rope and/or shoot the ancient. I'm going to make a separate post about just this issue, so it gets some attention.

[Innocent_Flower]

Agreement. Now if only the Eximus, grineer and corpus got the same kind of treatment. 

[Viverim]

Okay, I usually do exterminate missions, and I had no major issues with Exterminate or Deception with the new infested. I tried, however, to do the mobile defense alert mission today, and it was a very horrible experience.  Osprey spawned far, far too often, and apparently their gas clouds seem to fill the entire hall now, as there were numerous situations where I could not get out of them other than by retreating back up the hall where I had come from.  Add to that, at the very first defense station I had three Osprey flying back and froth covering the entire defense platform in multiple gas clouds.  You can't retreat far when doing solo mobile defense or the objective gets destroyed.  Additionally, the ancient disruptor did a 'one-hit energy drain' despite the notes saying this mechanic would no longer be in place in favor of smaller, damage based energy reductions.  I didn't even bother finishing the first defense area and quit the game, I was so disgusted.

 

While this might be acceptable (and I don't think it is) in a group mission, in a Solo mission it is not. 

 

Osprey's, in solo play, should never have more than one active at a time.  Disruptors need to have the auto-energy-drain gotten rid of.  Energy drain in any game that has super-powers is boring and contradicts the existence of said powers anyway.  Either take away the energy drain or just stop creating powers for warframes, as they will never have the energy to use them anyway.

 

Still too much toxic damage.  I already plan on putting a forma on Mirage so I can turn her aura slot into a D for the Rejuvenation.  it's her only way to have a high chance of long-term survival in solo play.

 

I have no issue with the exploding runners, as it makes you assess their range and choose between melee or ranged.  Several times I did not fire at them due to their close proximity, and instead rushed to melee them and then return to firing at other infested.  I think that was an excellent change.

 

Again, multiple Ospreys active at the same time is very bad.  You can't prioritize targets when you are swarmed by melee types and a second or third Osprey come late into the room.  And in anything other than an exterminate, extending play is a detriment.  Things won't actually get better, as there is no enemy spawn limit (something I disagree with, although I doubt anyone else shares my opinion).

 

So, to sum up; in Exterminate, Spy, or Deception - new Infested seem to be well done.  In Defense or Mobile defense - they mightily suck.

Haven't tried the new version of the Hive mission, nor Survival, although I doubt survival has significantly changed.

[LABAL]

Infested are now overpowered and certainly need buff. What? Does this even make sense?
Let's look at defense:
First few waves - Infested are simple. It doesn't take much skill to down them. You just shoot and they just die. Okay.
Next few waves - Same infested. Some healers that make other infested nigh invulnerable. They glow brightly and are easy targets. But they can hide and when you kill one, two spawn. Still okay if you're quick to dispose of them. Also, mutalist ospreys. Damn pigeons. You may require abilities...
Then Hell breaks loose - Disruptors, Energy drainers, invincible Toxics, other nasty things. Their number increases dramatically, weak mobs being pushed to the cryopod. You NEED abilities. YET, energy is constantly drained, any AoE is like a matchstick in a room full of gas due to vast masses of suicide bombers being stacked on top of each other layer after layer like a volatile pancake with tabasco sauce. Overkill? Definitely.

[letir]

Toxin procs stil much, MUCH more dangerous then just clouds.

[HeroPwn]

The new infested are really great but, I tried Pluto Dark Sector Defense, BY the 10TH WAVE, nearly all of my enemies were ancient.

I am not asking for a buff or nerf, I really want them to reduce the number of enemies with special abilities to spawn.

 

Infested still are the run and gun down faction. You try to put yourself in the middle either:

1)Cloud gas gets you, and to be honest those ospreys move WAY faster than any osprey in-game, making it the most annoying target with a controller or even a mouse/keyboard.

2)Basic Infested Units will surround you to quickly and literally eat your Iron Skin/Shield/Health so fast that activating a CC is just the most suicidal thing ever.

3)Ancients and Enemy leaders everywhere draining your shield non-stop.

 

It is just pure run n gun, not that this game wasn't, but there is literally no other tactic on infested map that are not defense or Mobile Defense, and even then, on defense map it is just stay far away and blast enemies with your OP 40K+ dmg ogris. Making it purely camping mode. At least adding an infested with an enemy range far wider than all other infested units would help. Heck ODD the spot where most people stand, to infested you're non-existent.

 

Also the Ancient dragging ability is really in my opinion a lazy work done, sure they are other thing they have to work on but still tho. Why in the world is the dragging line longer than the infested arm reach, and why is it purely just scorpion copy. They can at least make it like the infested arm just has a slow homing ability until reaching max arm reach than just a black spider web from spiderman coming out of nowhere.

Edited July 23, 2014 by HeroPwn

[Liminal]

After further testing the biggest issue I have with the new infested is the excessive ancient spawns. They gave them powerful auras, which was a neat move, but when 4 or 5 ancients spawn it just ruins the whole thing: you have to go look for them and they may be behind a wall or on another floor ... and then you kill it only to find out 2 more are coming from the room you just cleared ... among other problems. It's a pain which I decide to alleviate with my Penta, because there's no way I'm letting those 25 energy-draining-shield-bypassing chargers that remain buffed near me after I killed 3 ancients 4 seconds earlier.

 

IMO ancients should be given way more hp, but they should be limited to one at a time. If players leave them behind delete them and spawn a new one in the next room or something. In defense or survival I could see 2 spawning at the same time after 15 waves or 25 minutes or whatever seemes appropriate.

They should feel like common minibosses. The infested are the "constantly buffed" faction right now.

[notionphil]

When you add complexity [to a faction], you need to adjust spawn rates/XP rewards and enemy density calculations.

 

New ancients should be more rare and worth more XP. You don't need 10 at a time to make combat challenging anymore.

 

 

The new infested are really great but, I tried Pluto Dark Sector Defense, BY the 10TH WAVE, nearly all of my enemies were ancient.

I am not asking for a buff or nerf, I really want them to reduce the number of enemies with special abilities to spawn.

 

 

 

En-masse spawns, and much worse, "backdoor" spawns, happen whatever the level range is.

 

 

 when it throws 3-4 ancients at you at a time, prioritizing doesn't matter as much as simply killing everything faster so they can't use their nigh-unavoidable attacks. 

 

First few waves ...

Next few waves...

Then Hell breaks loose - Disruptors, Energy drainers, invincible Toxics, other nasty things. Their number increases dramatically,

 

 

You can't prioritize targets when you are swarmed by melee types and a second or third Osprey come late into the room. 

 

- General wave composition problems, absurd amount of $&*&*#(%& Ospreys S#&$ting everywhere

 

 

After further testing the biggest issue I have with the new infested is the excessive ancient spawns.

 

Please keep this feedback coming, the Ancient (and to a lesser degree drone) spawns are out of hand.

 

It's turning an otherwise challenging, enjoyable faction into a frustrating aura stacking, unavoidable pull from every direction spam-and-run slog.

Edited July 23, 2014 by notionphil

[HeroPwn]

Here a picture of an example of the 10th wave at sechura, the squad was killing everything easy and by the 10th wave..... Hell just broke loose.

Yes I know I could have put my penta or a frame with some nice CC, but I use Sechura mainly to rank up stuff. And with the Exp nerf on the eximus this turned this great exp farm map into a "better not even try beyond wave 5" map... Heck T4 Defense feels like less of a pain to survive, this took down our squad in less than 5 sec 

 

http://i.imgur.com/deigrwe.jpg]

Edited July 26, 2014 by HeroPwn

[notionphil]

Here a picture of an example of the 10th wave at sechura, the squad was killing everything easy and by the 10th wave..... Hell just broke loose.

Yes I know I could have put my penta or a frame with some nice CC, but I use Sechura mainly to rank up stuff. And with the Exp nerf on the eximus this turned this great exp farm map into a "better not even try beyond wave 5" map... Heck T4 Defense feels like less of a pain to survive, this took down our squad in less than 5 sec 

 

]http://i.imgur.com/deigrwe.jpg]

That is simply out of hand. Once the kubrow frustration threads die down on the forums, hopefully we can get some attention to this issue.

[Monolake]

As Iv posted in another thread (that got burried under 50 tamagochi topics)

 

 

Iv played infested all day.

Main issues:

Pull mechanic is still unfair, you cant dodge it, unlike patchnotes say, you HAVE to equip Surefooted or you get puled, swarmed, disrupted and poisoned (all at the same time). And ~95% of players dont even have this mod, it never drops. 

Old effects (disruption and poison) assumed that you could run away and wont get hugged. Now you are guaranteed to get dragged into Ancients.

Didn't test blocking, cause its impossible to quickly switch to melee, and full melee mode vs Ancients is a suicide now (maybe except on Trinity)

Toxic Ancients do HUGE damage on contact: lvl 40-42 Toxic instantly kills 660hp/65 armor (shield ignore ofcourse!). Just like that full HP -> DEAD, cause Toxic sneaked on you.

 

These both (pull and huge shield ignore damage) are completely unfair and need fixes.


There are still energy drain leaders even with new pulling Disruptors. why? At least they don't steal your ammo on the go...

Partial energy-stealing attacks were added to be more fair,  yet total disruption with screen messup is still there, so nothing is improved.

 

As for resistance auras and bullet sponges, Im not sure, But I run good weapons (for example ~15k burst, 12k sustained dps) and try to target Ancients first, it feels like they are just a bit more bullet spongy than void Heavies of the similar level. No more easy mode, level up your unranked weapons on low levels. This is fair game: want to fight high level - bring high level guns and prioritise targets.

BUT

Frame powers are less effective too, for example Ember is garbage even vs Infested now. These have to be looked at, but its another issue not exclusive to the Infested.

Also auras is a visual mess.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Monolake

[notionphil]

As Iv posted in another thread (that got burried under 50 tamagochi topics)

 

 

Iv played infested all day.

Main issues:

Pull mechanic is still unfair, you cant dodge it, unlike patchnotes say, you HAVE to equip Surefooted or you get puled, swarmed, disrupted and poisoned (all at the same time). And ~95% of players dont even have this mod, it never drops. 

Old effects (disruption and poison) assumes that you ciould run away and wont get hugged. Now you are guaranteed to get dragged into Ancients.

Didn't test blocking, cause its impossible to quickly switch to melee, and full melee mod vs Ancients is a suicide now (maybe except on Trinity)

Toxic Ancients do HUGE damage on contact: lvl 40-42 Toxic instantly kills 660hp/65 armor (shield ignore ofcourse!). Just like that full HP -> DEAD, cause Toxic sneaked on you.

 

These both (pull and huge shield ignore damage) are completely unfair and need fixes.

There are still energy drain leaders even with new pulling Disruptors. why? At least they don't steal your ammo on the go...

Partial energy-stealing attacks were added to be more fair,  yet total disruption with screen messup is still there, so nothing is improved.

 

As for resistance auras and bullet sponges, Im not sure, But I run good weapons (for example ~15k burst, 12k sustained dps) and try to target Ancients first, it feels like they are just a bit more bullet spongy than void Heavies of the similar level. No more easy mode, level up your unranked weapons on low levels. This is fair game: want to fight high level - bring high level guns and prioritise targets.

BUT

Frame powers are less effective too, for example Ember is garbage even vs Infested now. These have to be looked at, but its another issue not exclusive to the Infested.

Also auras is a visual mess.

What are your thoughts on spawn rates? By wave/time and solo/group?

[Monolake]

What are your thoughts on spawn rates? By wave/time and solo/group?

 

I have played mostly solo and overall spawnrates in survival are not very high now (said I killed 600 by 25 mins, but many other times I couldn't get that far with lower spawns and low lifesupport drops), but ~half of the enemies  by 15 min. are ancients.  Group In ODD seems like there are more ancients in earlier waves as well.

Or maybe it only seems this way because they are much harder to kill now, while small enemies die relatively easy. 

 Would make sense to lower ancients ratio now, since they buff each-other.

[Me.Greedy]

OP said, "Remember that when you add complexity, you need to adjust spawn rates/XP rewards and enemy density calculations. Killing 10 mindless waddling ancients at a time was a simple button press. New ancients should probably be more rare and worth more XP. You don't need 10 at a time to make combat challenging anymore."

 

^This... it's really the only problem i'm having with the new infested. to many auras are making it near impossible to do anything. you can't channel for melee, and you can't use your energy skills... you can't shoot at some point because the runners are to powerful and explode the pod...

[Monolake]

Some  more observations. 

 

Venomous Eximus seems to be bugged not taking any damage from melee attack (either from Hysteria or from weapons), but took normal damage from guns (encounterd it twice). Maybe thats the case o resistance auras bugging.

 

Best way to avoid a pull seems to be using a melee weapon with momentum that prevents knockdowns - like Ichors - just start swinging as soon as you see ancients. Or try to roll, but its slower and not as reliable. Simply 'dodging' as moving sideways from hook sometimes actually works, but I honestly don't see a pattern, sometimes it gets you when you dodge, other time it just misses you. Visuals are not in-line with the mechanics. 

 

 And it happens way too fast.

 

From counting frames in a video, it looks like pull happens in ~0.6 second from the start of an animation(which looks like a normal arm swing too) , giving almost no time to react. The hook itself flies less than 0.2 of a second (~4 frames @25fps depending on distance) and the rope is poorly visible too ...  Needless to say this has to be changes into a more distinct telegraphed and avoidable attack.

 

Some abilities dont stop hook despite providing a stun (ie Acceperant)

 

Hook distance and angles are still ridiculous (as we all know from Scorpions - same bs with Ancients ). Once I got hooked from a higher floor in the derelict having no direct line of sight to the enemy, but it only dragged me half-way up. Or you can get hooked by an enemy that faces the other direction. And this one missed me http://i61.tinypic.com/66g0if.jpg RNG much?

 

And of course sentinels die to toxin in no time with nothing you can do. Time  for anti-toxin sentinel mod?

[Hueminator]

We should get quick block back

 

+1 for increase Ancient XP

Edited July 28, 2014 by Hueminator

[Monolake]

Imma bump this important topic highlighting the issues for DEL designers to fix.

 

Look at this amazing hook through solid geometry.

 

 

 

Here is Valk (600 armor = 3x damage mitigation) vs lvl36 Toxic http://i57.tinypic.com/548ykz.jpg

Toxic poison attack for  254 = 769 unmitigated shield ignore damage http://i59.tinypic.com/s6lqug.jpg

Btw if wiki is correct Antitoxin mod is only 2/3 effective (30% effective resistance at max level)

 

Then like every fifth unit energy drains you and spotting Eximus with constant leach aura is impossible in this colorful mess (its one of the chargers near the pod btw).

 

Thats why Infested is nightmare mode now: unfair mechanics with helload of shield ignore damage and energy drain from nowhere. Yep. Its like Shieldless + Energy Vampire combined, unless you annihilate everything before it comes closer than 25m to you.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Monolake

[Monolake]

Another 'spot the parasite' game.  And they come every wave. And they are 'tanks' 10 levels above the average with higher resistances.

 

Leach aura has to go.  Its completely unfair and uncounterable.

Color-coding needs to be cleared up. And remove it from corpses please.

 

 

Granting 90% damage resistance to others while  gaining health himself in the process ... balanced?  

http://i58.tinypic.com/23k2ok.jpg

If you wanted to make aoe weapons less effective, why not just do exactly that? We all know Penta/Ogris and Angstrum are OP. Time for rebalance.

What you did is made already non-scaling underwhelming damage abilities completely useless.  Because energy-drain alone was not enough? 

Once again, all these mechanics (old and new) are not bad on their own, but  stacking with each-other  its too much.

Doing 10% damage, while getting energy drained, hooked and getting hit for 600 poison damage all at the same time is not a fair game.

[Taranis49]

Nothing in the new infested requires more DPS than before. The major difference is that in order to escape significant harm you must use a combination of melee and firearms, or firearms and evasion.

 

You don't need to increase DPS, you just need to apply the right type of DPS to certain targets first, while being more mobile. The pull is an exception to this which can become unfair and should be tweaked.

 

In the chaotic carnage fest that is WF, almost all of our problems will/should be solvable by throwing DPS in the general direction of our enemies. All we can hope is that "more DPS" is not the best solution, but simply one solution.

 

Sorry, but on this particular point, that's not really correct, e.g. multiple Ancient Healers renders the idea of target prioritization moot, since they all share in the benefits of the aura generated by the others. Which means that the only method to effectively put them down is more DPS.

[imaxium]

I dont mean to promote my own thread, but I started a reponse and it turned into its own thread. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/289031-how-to-improve-the-infested/#entry3309103

 

I agree that the ancients are overpowered on endless missions and need a rebalance.

[notionphil]

Sorry, but on this particular point, that's not really correct, e.g. multiple Ancient Healers renders the idea of target prioritization moot, since they all share in the benefits of the aura generated by the others. Which means that the only method to effectively put them down is more DPS.

 

Spawn rates need to be fixed, aura stacking needs to be removed.

 

Have been saying that (specially about spawn rate) since before these changes happened.

[Monolake]

Well. been playing ODD for hours.  

 

Leachers continue to be the bane of infested missions.  Come on, stop this nonsense, I'v just faced 7 or 8 of them in  a single wave of ODD!!! I couldn't beat that even with Booben using energy restores and killing them with maxed weapons. They drain all your energy in a second! This crap is unfair and uncounterable. You might as well roll the dice every wave for a random 'YOU LOSE' condition. 

 

 

Is it just me or the Ancients spawn rate been toned down and Disrupters don't come together with Healers?  Good thing, cause Disrupters have 90% immunity to AOEs and give resistance aura to others.

EDIT: they do come together but dont affect each other and their auras dont combine on other units, from what I see.

(Did anyone test this, is it 90% at all the levels, and how much resistance is aura?)

 Ironically I only started to bother about that once they hit lvl 120+ smth, like "wait, my Penta is not killing them quick enough, something is wrong" 

 

Toxics continue to one-shot so I even removed the Antitoxin mod - it makes no difference, you still die from Toxic's fart, and aura is not a big deal.

 

And now for balance sake: Infested still cant do much when you sit on a high ground, only some toxic auras or fireblasts get you (and energy leach of course!) The game is still the same: climb high and spam your weapons. This probably requires map redesign as much as faction change.

 Add flying enemies? (that don't poison everything around please! you cant counter that and cant run away in defence obviously).

 

 

Also infested jump out of Bastille even being under the limit, not sure what causes this ability bug or a new undocumented  infested; feature?

 

As of some observation: Disrupters and units under Disrupter's aura seem to get out of Bastille after ~3 seconds but even if you kill the Disrupters and aura tint vanishes, Bastille still doesn't work.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Monolake