An Impartial Look At Kubrows

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Thanks for the continued support, everyone.

Well that's why I made the comment about it not only need to require resources( specifically ones that take time to farm) but also made it only remove a small amount of time each go. If you have the plat to spend you will obviously choose the plat over the farming since even the farming of resources needed would take to long for some.

its also why I suggested the limiter. if they made a way to speed up incubation and growth of the pup, but made it so without plat you can only speed it up by a days worth of time. then those without plat can at least shrink it from 4 to 2 days of wait. while those with plat can shrink it to 1( since plat is only used in incubation phase)

I still had the thought that this is a company and therefore needs to make money, but with most things DE has always been good at taking the edge off for people who can't afford plat while giving those with plat a slight edge time wise.

I understand, but the established system in WF is that speeding up build times is really only available through platinum transactions. It's not a bad idea, it's just not in line with the rest of Warframe.

I don't like to say "DE needs to make money somehow" but the timers are inoffensive at worst. They are almost always an amount that works with a normal daily schedule, so players can start something one day and it will be ready the next when they return from work or school (or whatever).

[Marnus]

Totally agree with every point of the OP.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Looking back, I realized that I was steering this in a certain direction, that being toward the best video game compainion ever.

 

 

If they could clean up Kubrows to be half of what Agro was, they would be outstanding.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Due to a unanimously positive response, I'm going to give this one polite bump for this afternoon and leave it alone if it falls again.

[NDarkstar]

I love the ideas, and given the much shorter turn around time for sentinels to be built, I think a small non-plat rush OR a system that builds kubrow built with market imprints faster would be acceptable. Kubrow are new and interesting, but not at all on par with and certainly not competition for my Carrier, with it's forma and reactor, and it's Deth Machine Rifle with it's forma and catalyst. I would very much like DE to give me a reason to invest the time, effort and credit/plat into my Kubrow.

DE, if you need ideas: Kubrow coat colors, body armors, collars, scarves, eye colors (glow), prosthetics (wings, alternate tails, cybernetic legs, ears, eyes, etc.) can all be used as additional revenue generators for the Kubrow without impacting it's usefulness or locking it out of reach of "the average joe".

In all honesty, I don't have money to spend on this stuff while I fight cancer and hope to god I've got more sand in my hourglass than the doctors seem to think. Even if I were healthy, I don't want to be penalized for not logging in every day. I stopped LOTRO because I got sick of having to log in and do dailies to pay for my house and various other perks, WF should be a fun game, not work.

Edited July 25, 2014 by NDarkstar

[Viverim]

Okay, I will explain something even though I disagree with the mechanic.

 

Stasis Lock

 

The 3 hour wait period for stasis is, I believe, to prevent people from by-passing the DNA degrade which occurs at server-reset/ log-in-renewal.  If you could get your kubrow out of stasis with no or little delay, there is nothing to prevent players from exploiting the system.  At 6:55 p.m. you put your kubrow into stasis.  The log-in reset takes place at 7:00 p.m. (these are my times, others may have different times).  At 7:05 p.m. you remove your kubrow from stasis and continue playing.  Since the kubrow was in stasis at server log-in reset, its DNA does not reduce, and thus you don't need to use the DNA stabilizers, which avoids the credit sink DE(L) was attempting to put into the game.

 

Now, personally I think that the DNA system should be gotten rid of.  I, personally, would make the DNA stabilizer a booster that works for x amount of time and degrades as you actively play, with the Kubrow never dropping below 100% normal health.  This keeps the credit sink feature (although I would certainly make it cost less than 100k credits unless it had a massively long timer) while also making the log-in reset timer not part of the equation. 

 

With the Stasis lock we currently have, there is little to no use for having more than 1 Kubrow other than mastery rank purposes.  You can't switch them out to use the appropriate kubrow for various missions, unless you plan on skipping 3 hours between each mission.  Not very practical. 

 

otherwise, I find everything in the original post to be acceptable. 

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Okay, I will explain something even though I disagree with the mechanic.

 

Stasis Lock

 

The 3 hour wait period for stasis is, I believe, to prevent people from by-passing the DNA degrade which occurs at server-reset/ log-in-renewal.  If you could get your kubrow out of stasis with no or little delay, there is nothing to prevent players from exploiting the system.  At 6:55 p.m. you put your kubrow into stasis.  The log-in reset takes place at 7:00 p.m. (these are my times, others may have different times).  At 7:05 p.m. you remove your kubrow from stasis and continue playing.  Since the kubrow was in stasis at server log-in reset, its DNA does not reduce, and thus you don't need to use the DNA stabilizers, which avoids the credit sink DE(L) was attempting to put into the game.

 

Now, personally I think that the DNA system should be gotten rid of.  I, personally, would make the DNA stabilizer a booster that works for x amount of time and degrades as you actively play, with the Kubrow never dropping below 100% normal health.  This keeps the credit sink feature (although I would certainly make it cost less than 100k credits unless it had a massively long timer) while also making the log-in reset timer not part of the equation. 

 

With the Stasis lock we currently have, there is little to no use for having more than 1 Kubrow other than mastery rank purposes.  You can't switch them out to use the appropriate kubrow for various missions, unless you plan on skipping 3 hours between each mission.  Not very practical. 

 

otherwise, I find everything in the original post to be acceptable. 

 

The workaround is a valid thing to point out. Removing stasis really only works if DNA stability is also changed as I suggested, or maybe as you have. Since we both want the degredation changed, stasis becomes useless. Both of our suggestions are more player-friendly and fit better with the flow of Warframe than the doggie death timer they went with.

 

Generally, I don't think the game needs another credit sink. I don't understand why some players are bothered by having a big credit balance ("I have nothing to spend them on" has been a complaint in WF and other games) or an excess of resources such that they would need a reason to reduce what they have with an upkeep cost. I guess it's something to grind for, but given the choice between playing for fun and playing to make sure I can afford space dog food, I'd rather play just for fun. I don't need the extra inspiration.

[Quorinus]

Suicidal Behavior

Having a "loyal", "helpful" companion that runs into certain death because it's as dumb as a rock just ensures that it's useless in a mission where the enemies are a threat. While I'm willing to accept that they're attack-focused instead of utility-focused like sentinels, but there's no excuse for them not avoiding damage.

The fix: Kubrows either need to A) Be immortal or B) have a complete AI overhaul so they actually recognize sources of damage and avoid them. Immortal helpers don't exactly fit with the game, so we'll have to go with B. As void enemies are more than happy to run right through their own laser traps and die, while Corpus will run through Grineer magnetic doors on captured tilesets, I doubt this is something DE can fix quickly but it's just something they'll need to do if kubrows are going to be worth the sentinel slot. Fix kubrow bleedout to instate player agency in the process (already planned). Modify kubrow bleedout to be mandatory (i.e. no amount of damage, be it void lasers or stalker slash dashes, can kill them without bleedout time).

I believe DE has been trying to fix this over the past few days with immunity to environmental traps and I think it still has a long way to go but I don't think Kubrows need different AI maybe a small tune up. I have to say you probably have one of the best opinions on Kubrows I have ever seen and I would fully agree with the majority of the points you make.

[Moderius]

Impartial

 

I do not think this word means what you think it means.

[CowboySparkles]

Agreed with all of this (well mostly). I love my Kubrow(s) and haven't had any moment where I've been mad, but I have been frustrated that owning one seems to be more punishment at the moment, then wonderful space-puppy companionship. DE is one of my favorite devs, but I don't think they're above critique, and constructive feedback is always in order. I appreciate that your post didn't devolve into needless bashing.

 

Releasing/Selling Kubrow:

While I don't think it's the most important fix, I definitely think the highest priority change right now should be ways to release your Kubrow. This change is greatly, painfully, needed, especially if DE is trying to encourage Kubrow breeding. The point of breeding/pet sims is that you're going to have fails when you breed, and you're going to have a lot. Players NEED to be able to release or sell their failed Kubrow, or else breeding is just going to be another thing players will feel punished for. At the moment, you're only hope to free up space is to let your Kubrow slowly degrade, which feels awful, and is also a frustrating amount of time spent "culling" when you could be breeding and bonding with Kubrow you want to keep.

 

Alternative to release/sell: If DE doesn't want this feature to try and push care for the Kubrow (this is not a good idea; no one likes being forced to care for something) then I think an adorable and hilarious alternative to being able to sell or release Kubrow would be to have a new Clan Dojo room called "Kubrow Nursery" where clan members can deposit their pups to play with other failed Kubrow pups and free space in stasis. Once a pup is deposited in the nursery, players would be unable to reclaim them, thus getting around any potential exploits. There would be a limit to how many Kubrow could be in the room, so clan members would have to pick and choose which ones to display.

 

DNA Degradation:

Agree completely. The only negative to owning a Kubrow should be allowing it to die. This is tough to prevent right now with its current tendency to get into trouble, but at least with bleedout mods it's mostly preventable. Even if the Kubrow continued to throw themselves into danger, I would want this to be implemented as the only penalty in a heartbeat.

 

Loyalty:

I think if anything this should be based on consecutive login days. Right now, as was mentioned, players seem to be punished with the Kubrow by logging in, because they degrade in health. But if you remove health degradation over time, I think then the alternative to get players to login is to reward them with Kubrow loyalty. The more days you login in consecutively = the more your Kubrow loves you. Simple! 

 

Statis Time:

Another complete agreement. The very core of Warframe gameplay is being able to switch Warframes, weapons, builds at will to tackle each and every situation; Kubrow are supposed to be the awesome alternative to Sentinels, but yet if I want to switch from my Huras to my Raksa to tackle something new my squad wants to do, I have to wait 3 hours... leaving me with the choice to either just keep the Huras, or grab Carrier as usual and play just like I did before U14. Again it feels like another punishment for wanting to play with a Kubrow, and could be removed entirely if DNA degradation was.

 

Imprinting and Scrambler:

I really think it's unnecessary to have a 15 hour wait just to imprint a Kubrow. This really slows down the trading/breeding aspect of Kubrow, which is not needed considering the time investment required already.

 

But other than being annoyed at imprints times, I haven't thought enough about this to provide any sort of worthwhile comment, but I do agree with some of your sentiments, and am very intrigued about your proposed changes to imprinting. However as someone who has played many, many breeding sims, I'm not sure how "fun" it would be to guarantee coat colors/pattern via imprints. It seems to remove the challenge of breeding projects entirely. But I do agree with your suggestions currently only because the process is extremely expensive. If the cost/time cost was reduced significantly then I'd have no problem with a challenging breeding system. However I do not feel there is enough information provided on the breeding system to determine if it even is a challenge, or just more RNG. We need to have more in-game info about the genetics behind breeding Kubrow. Which brings me to something I'd like to add...

 

Kubrow DNA Information:

I think a page for Kubrow "profile" information is greatly needed. Players need a way to look a their Kubrow and go, "Oh! My grey Kubrow has a grey Lotus pattern that was invisible! I can try to breed that onto better colors!" instead of, "Oh, my Kubrow is solid grey..." there could be special entries in the Codex on all named Kubrows the player has, detailing their colors and coat patterns.

 

Example:

Name: Fluffy

Type: Huras

Gender: Female

Pattern: Stripes Color: Pink

Coat/Fur Color: Black

Build: Beefy

 

Just some simple information to help players know more about their Kubrow, and make more informed decisions when breeding.

 

 

In the end I really love my Kubrows, and think they have the potential to be one of my favorite additions to the game ever. They just need to make it so owning a Kubrow feels like a reward in itself, not a time/money punishment, and while some of these suggestions are - game development speaking - much larger than others, I think implementing them would be incredibly beneficial for Warframe in the long run.

Edited July 26, 2014 by CowboySparkles

[reltats]

this post gets 11/10

 

I would actually consider opening warframe again with this kind of fix. At the moment warframe is nothing but a grindfest cash grabbing pos imo. This would definitely take away a lot of my ammunition for making such a statement. (Which that statement does make me quite sad as I used to love this game)

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

I believe DE has been trying to fix this over the past few days with immunity to environmental traps and I think it still has a long way to go but I don't think Kubrows need different AI maybe a small tune up. I have to say you probably have one of the best opinions on Kubrows I have ever seen and I would fully agree with the majority of the points you make.

 

That's valid. I considered making them notice and respond to sources of damage to be a big change because nothing else seems to do that, but if they can tweak that in instead of building a whole new program for them, it still accomplishes the goal of more sensical kubrow behavior.

 

I do not think this word means what you think it means.

 

Impartiality doesn't mean middling results. I was not biased for or against kubrows and most of the opinions are formed from the standpoint of what's best for the player and what fits with the established practices in Warframe.

 

Imprinting and Scrambler:

I really think it's unnecessary to have a 15 hour wait just to imprint a Kubrow. This really slows down the trading/breeding aspect of Kubrow, which is not needed considering the time investment required already.

 

But other than being annoyed at imprints times, I haven't thought enough about this to provide any sort of worthwhile comment, but I do agree with some of your sentiments, and am very intrigued about your proposed changes to imprinting. However as someone who has played many, many breeding sims, I'm not sure how "fun" it would be to guarantee coat colors/pattern via imprints. It seems to remove the challenge of breeding projects entirely. But I do agree with your suggestions currently only because the process is extremely expensive. If the cost/time cost was reduced significantly then I'd have no problem with a challenging breeding system. However I do not feel there is enough information provided on the breeding system to determine if it even is a challenge, or just more RNG. We need to have more in-game info about the genetics behind breeding Kubrow. Which brings me to something I'd like to add...

 

Kubrow DNA Information:

I think a page for Kubrow "profile" information is greatly needed. Players need a way to look a their Kubrow and go, "Oh! My grey Kubrow has a grey Lotus pattern that was invisible! I can try to breed that onto better colors!" instead of, "Oh, my Kubrow is solid grey..." there could be special entries in the Codex on all named Kubrows the player has, detailing their colors and coat patterns.

 

Example:

Name: Fluffy

Type: Huras

Gender: Female

Pattern: Stripes Color: Pink

Coat/Fur Color: Black

Build: Beefy

 

Just some simple information to help players know more about their Kubrow, and make more informed decisions when breeding.

 

 

In the end I really love my Kubrows, and think they have the potential to be one of my favorite additions to the game ever. They just need to make it so owning a Kubrow feels like a reward in itself, not a time/money punishment, and while some of these suggestions are - game development speaking - much larger than others, I think implementing them would be incredibly beneficial for Warframe in the long run.

 

I would be concerned about making it too easy if it didn't take six imprints per kubrow, and obviously people are going to want all four kubrows in the end. That's a lot to collect or trade for.

 

If they want to keep the "combine two imprints" breeding system, I'd like it if they took some inspiration from Minecraft enchanting where the resulting enchantment or, in this case, kubrow could be previewed. For kubrows, I'd like to keep the results reliable and unobfuscated. This would encourage players to have a couple open kubrow slots and to collect imprints just to see how they combine. This would allow players to stumble on combinations they didn't know they liked.

 

I am, however, concerned about DE and RNG. A new RNG-less system wouldn't hurt a game that's been riding on it, and they do talk like they want to reduce the presence of RNG in things. Even with reduced cost and time, it would be nice to have the production be certain even if the acquisition is still dependant on what the player can get from farmed kubrow eggs or trading (which still depends on what someone can get from eggs).

 

The breeding could be a fun aspect if they fixed it up and made the process more transparent though.