Nekros Buff And Rework Suggestions

[Temfist]

Current Shadow of the Dead is already good. It's a skill that require you to actually PLAY the game and keep track of stuffs. A quick shooting on the Shield osprey and a couple heavy or some ancients will make the skill extremely powerful. The suggested one might make it somewhat reliable but also completely guts its potential to become really strong when played right.

 

I don't get why people say he's "Not fun to play". He's FUN to play for me alright. Why? Because unlike other frames, you rely more on your actual gun play and acrobat skill. Beside the Desecrate bot, Nekros is without a doubt on the lists of "Advanced frame" with a rather high skill floor to work right. The only reason people will consider him boring to play is because they're in a team situation where Nekros Kit was NOT designed to wipe the whole map instantly. Instead, he's more of a survivalist support that can also solo contents with ease as long as you know what you're doing as he will have both the loot from desecrate and fire or defensive power based on how you use SotD.

"Advanced Difficulty" and "Solo with Ease" are kinda contradictory man. I mean, I get it, he's fun because he "challenges you". You don't want him to be made into an "easy mode" Warframe, cause it would make gameplay with him feel like a joke when it used to feel rewarding. I feel the same way, which is why I'm trying to balance out the use of his abilities some, so you don't just spam "3" anymore during team situations, and when your solo you actually have some good survivability without having to be an acrobatic pro (since any Warframe can survive under those same conditions, your just being forced into those conditions with Nekros, while other frames have other, more "dependable" options).

 

My whole Issue is that in order to feed his "Shadows of the Dead", you have to stop "Desecrating" long enough to kill things, and in order to survive you have to stop "Desecrating" in order to run around and dodge etc. I guess part of the fun is being challenged to try and feed "Shadows of the Dead" while you also farm dead bodies for health and energy etc. but does giving his Desecrate the added bonus of a scaling move that protects you for a short duration going to ruin that? I don't think it will, because essentially, your using a nerfed version of the old Ultimate in tandem with Desecrate now, giving you a brief relief/added reward for using Desecrate when you "don't need loot".

 

and that is my whole point. Turning "Desecrate" into more then just a raw loot farm. Nekros doesn't always need loot, but he does need breathing room cause he is a bit squishy (same stats as Excalibur, but with no reliable CC other then "Terrify", and his only decent damage being using the enemies against them, a feature much better performed by Nyx Chaos Imo)

Edited July 24, 2014 by Temphis

[Temfist]

Your suggestion for Shadows of the Dead removes the scaling. It would completely remove it from use in high level play. It's a bad idea, and I can't take your post seriously because of it. It shows a lack of consideration for what actually works with Nekros currently, and what really needs to be worked on.

 

Killing enemies isn't the issue, it's what you can do with your shadows after summoning. Their spread over an area is too unfocused, and doesn't support mobility in a game that relies on it. A simple fix would be for shadows to follow you when not immediately engaged with an enemy. This should not be a problem to implement, as you can see that friendly AI in invasion missions already do this. 

I believe I addressed this earlier when I actually gave some examples of how the new "Shadow Specters" would act, you can find it above in my reply to Semshol. I intentionally left it open ended so that the Shadow Specters and their use could be discussed. But thanks for addressing how the original scales and that I should clarify that in the OP, I'm gonna go edit that in shortly.

[Zeitzbach]

Super Advanced and Solo with Ease are kinda contradictory man. I mean, I get it, he's fun because he "challenges you". You don't want him to be made into an "easy mode" Warframe, cause it would make gameplay with him feel like a joke when it used to feel rewarding. I feel the same way, which is why I'm trying to balance out the use of his abilities some, so you don't just spam "3" anymore during team situations, and when your solo you actually have some good survivability without having to be an acrobatic pro (since any Warframe can survive under those same conditions, your just being forced into those conditions with Nekros, while other frames have other options).

 

My whole Issue is that in order to feed his "Shadows of the Dead", you have to stop "Desecrating" long enough to kill things, and in order to survive you have to stop "Desecrating" in order to run around and dodge etc. I guess part of the fun is being challenged to try and feed "Shadows of the Dead" while you also farm dead bodies for health and energy etc. but does giving his Desecrate the added bonus of a scaling move that protects you for a short duration going to ruin that? I don't think it will, because essentially, your using a nerfed version of the old Ultimate in tandem with Desecrate now, giving you a brief relief/added reward for using Desecrate when you "don't need loot".

 

and that is my whole point. Turning "Desecrate" into more then just a raw loot farm. Nekros doesn't always need loot, but he does need breathing room cause he is a bit squishy (same stats as Excalibur, but with no reliable CC other then "Terrify", and his only decent damage being using the enemies against them, a feature much better performed by Nyx Chaos Imo)

 

It's advanced because it has a skill floor. However, if you can get past that skill floor, you can do a lot of thing and make the game much easier than usual. The reason Nekros will end up spamming 3 in a team solution is because his Desecrate means you can NEVER have any AoE damage spell on him. If you want him to not press 3, Desecrate will have to go or you will have Mr Perfect for farming and soloing everything. The Design does not allow that. Any option that gives him access to a considerable amount of damage is immediately throw off the window unless Desecrate is reworked to no longer cause a second drop roll.

 

And that is something I rather not have happened. Right now, not only is he challenging to play, but he's also extremely rewarding. People are being misled by corpse disappearing = can't desecrate anymore. No, the invisible body remains there for a REALLY LONG time. My Slide jump slidehold- spell casting means I will be moving while summoning stuffs from SotD that scales along with enemies, granting me protection and fire power at the same time before I begin desecrating for loots. Then later, desecrate the SotD for more health orb which when combined with Equilibrium = infinite energy.

 

The amount of potential inside a Nekros is insane, all covered by the fact that no one want to learn how to play him and just press 3. When they do, they fail and just demand he be changed to suit their needs for an easier frame to play. Nekros is not your "Go-to" beginner frame. You have to actually play and learn him and when you do, you can go ahead and solo ODS or T4 to 40 minutes with ease.

 

Nekros has access to

 

Reliable Heal (SotD Desecrate and Desecrate + life strike = room full of orb. Unless you're already 40 minutes in where the game isn't balanced around, the orbs will do a great job although I do want them to scale more so I don't empty the whole room some time)

 

Huge Utility (SotD utility scales with enemy. I have my Vectis ready to snipe a couple of potential target and release them. Eximus Shield osprey just need to be fixed so sniping that actually summons the normal version like other targets do.)

 

Great survivability (Despite the animation time, you can cast it while moving and animation time = cc immune so a well time desecrate is one way to block CCs. Also, SotD = meatshield and desecrate health orb + equilibrium = infinite health and energy. Add rage and quick thinking for more survivability. He's squishy? Say that to the shield osprey I summoned for an in-and-out to fully regen my shield whenever I want like a Mag spamming shield polarize)

 

Great farming potential (Desecrate, nuff said)

 

and Build Varieties (His build has its up and down side for any stat. You can make a build that has no power boost except for potential and you have like 3-4 more slots for survivability and utility)

 

All of this for only one tradeoff

 

No AoE wave clear.

 

Sadly, most people removed all that and only focused on his "Great Farming Potential" point and is the reason why we keep getting this kind of thread because no one bother to learn him and just go "Desecrate slave so boring".

Edited July 24, 2014 by Zeitzbach

[Temfist]

It's advanced because it has a skill floor. However, if you can get past that skill floor, you can do a lot of thing and make the game much easier than usual. The reason Nekros will end up spamming 3 in a team solution is because his Desecrate means you can NEVER have any AoE damage spell on him. If you want him to not press 3, Desecrate will have to go or you will have Mr Perfect for farming and soloing everything. The Design does not allow that. Any option that gives him access to a considerable amount of damage is immediately throw off the window unless Desecrate is reworked to no longer cause a second drop roll.

 

And that is something I rather not have happened. Right now, not only is he challenging to play, but he's also extremely rewarding. People are being misled by corpse disappearing = can't desecrate anymore. No, the invisible body remains there for a REALLY LONG time. My Slide jump slidehold- spell casting means I will be moving while summoning stuffs from SotD that scales along with enemies, granting me protection and fire power at the same time before I begin desecrating for loots. Then later, desecrate the SotD for more health orb which when combined with Equilibrium = infinite energy.

 

The amount of potential inside a Nekros is insane, all covered by the fact that no one want to learn how to play him and just press 3. When they do, they fail and just demand he be changed to suit their needs for an easier frame to play. Nekros is not your "Go-to" beginner frame. You have to actually play and learn him and when you do, you can go ahead and solo ODS or T4 to 40 minutes with ease.

 

Nekros has access to

 

Reliable Heal (SotD Desecrate and Desecrate + life strike = room full of orb. Unless you're already 40 minutes in where the game isn't balanced around, the orbs will do a great job although I do want them to scale more so I don't empty the whole room some time)

 

Huge Utility (SotD utility scales with enemy. I have my Vectis ready to snipe a couple of potential target and release them. Eximus Shield osprey just need to be fixed so sniping that actually summons the normal version like other targets do.)

 

Great survivability (Despite the animation time, you can cast it while moving and animation time = cc immune so a well time desecrate is one way to block CCs. Also, SotD = meatshield and desecrate health orb + equilibrium = infinite health and energy. Add rage and quick thinking for more survivability. He's squishy? Say that to the shield osprey I summoned for an in-and-out to fully regen my shield whenever I want like a Mag spamming shield polarize)

 

Great farming potential (Desecrate, nuff said)

 

and Build Varieties (His build has its up and down side for any stat. You can make a build that has no power boost except for potential and you have like 3-4 more slots for survivability and utility)

 

All of this for only one tradeoff

 

No AoE wave clear.

 

Sadly, most people removed all that and only focused on his "Great Farming Potential" point and is the reason why we keep getting this kind of thread because no one bother to learn him and just go "Desecrate slave so boring".

So, according to you, all of his "greatness" comes from two moves, Desecrate and using "SotD", should you actually kill anything (this scaling move is only useful should you be able to kill the enemies, hard to do past level 50 without max everything). How is this not the exact issue I'm trying to suggest they fix? It doesn't even mater if he was the best soloing dps frame in the game, the issue here for me personally, and that many people agree with is that A) He has two moves that are useless B) The sole function behind him existing in the first place is undermined by his farming ability

 

That said, your suggesting that in order for people to use Nekros "properly", that they need to use him a specific way, rather then playing him how they may want too (because the lack of versatility in his kit, forces you to use specific mods and strategies in order to succeed with it)? Playing that way may be fun for some people, but if the majority of people don't like playing as him that way, he becomes unappealing too most. Saying he has a Skill Floor means nothing, everything has a Skill Floor, it's the fact that his Skill Floor is higher then it needs to be, and the Skill Ceiling, IMHO, isn't much higher.

 

But, I see what your saying here. In fighting games, when a character is extremely challenging to use, it normally really cuts the characters popularity among novice and intermediate players, because they lack the skill to perform a lot of the characters combos to function properly. In the Pro Fighting scene however, that same character excels because while they are difficult to master, they offer a level of complexity and skill required to perform well, making it harder for the enemy to read your moves and predict your actions etc. This is do to a large amount of diversity in the characters ability to take "actions". The character is advanced because rather then having 1 move for 4 scenarios, they have 5 for 3, or can react to moves in non-conventional ways that force the other player to act differently or be punished, etc.

 

This is not applicable to PvE in Warframe, but the fact that you can't just spam "4" to win does make Nekros feel a little more rewarding to succeed with, it's one of the reasons I still play as him from time to time, if not solely because of the farming ability. I also get why some players find Nekros appealing as he is, is because he has the greatest farming potential in the game, and if DE were to change Desecrate to not spawn additional mods/parts anymore, they would be crucified by the community because Nekros has NOTHING ELSE TO FALL BACK ON. Take away his Desecrate, and he's got "Shadows of the Dead" as his only decent scaling move, but it requires you to kill things first, thus making it less efficient in team games.

 

The real problem I have with him, is I don't find him fun, perhaps do to a belief that I am using a Necromancer, only to discover I'm more of a Grave Robber with spooky ghosts.

Not to say a grave digger with spooky ghosts can't be fun, but it's not what was advertised, nor does Nekros' kit offer me anything more then Loot Farm in terms of gamepaly. I just feel like there are BETTER WAYS for Nekros to work as a playable Necromancer. If not that, it's the fact that in order to use him "effectively" in solo play, you need to have a maxed out set of mods and weapons, because his Desecrate and "SotD" can only save you when you kill something. "Kill to Live" I guess, thats Nekros in a nut shell, instead of "Kill to summon, then summon to kill more". In my game experience, Necromancers are supposed to feel powerful because they snowball with death, each dead body is another soldier, that in turn earns you more dead bodies.

 

Tell me, whats the point of Nekros having four different abilities, if only two of them are ever used (one if your playing with friends)? When I play as Volt or Mag, I actually really enjoy having, and using all 4 abilities, because each one is helpful. When I play as Nyx or Rhino however, I only use two of their abilties, does that mean they are badly designed characters? not at all (and that isn't what I'm saying about any of the Warframes that need reworks). Do I think the other moves could be altered to make the Warframes not only feel more accessible to the average player, but also have more of a unique style of play to offer, one that is inviting and can be altered late game with mods for a variety of different builds? CERTAINLY.

 

But it's gonna require a big push from the community to ask for it, or DE is just gonna keep putting out other stuff....which is fine, until they do get to a point where balance becomes a distant dream, a faded memory of a concept lost in time and space....I'd rather the game feel more accessible and polished BEFORE we get too far ahead with crazy new stuff to keep us interested like Vehicle based levels and Space combat (which I don't think will happen, but who knows lol)

Edited July 24, 2014 by Temphis

[Zeitzbach]

So, according to you, all of his "greatness" comes from two moves, Desecrate and using "SotD", should you actually kill anything (this scaling move is only useful should you be able to kill the enemies, hard to do past level 50 without max everything). How is this not the exact issue I'm trying to suggest they fix? It doesn't even mater if he was the best soloing dps frame in the game, the issue here for me personally, and that many people agree with is that A) He has two moves that are useless B) The sole function behind him existing in the first place is undermined by his farming ability

 

Only one skill is useless. Soul punch. Terrify is a panic button with the downside being the target cap (not really a problem unless you get range extension) and the enemy being too fast when running away. SotD to draw fire then jump out, terrify and shoot everything from behind with a close range weapon like Brakk is one way to use it. Terrify + SotD is a really strong defense tool when combined. The duration also sucks but it balance the move from being too spammable. This game really has too much "o-shi" button that's too rewarding.

 

Only soul punch is the really useless one because like most single target CC, if there's a skill that AoE CC, it will be overshadowed. Make the Soul punch stagged and reduce the enemy armor by 50% instead and I might bring it as a debuffer. Ragdoll is nice but sending them flying and making them too hard to shoot is an issue.

 

That said, your suggesting that in order for people to use Nekros "properly", that they need to use him a specific way, rather then playing him how they may want too (because the lack of versatility in his kit, forces you to use specific mods and strategies in order to succeed with it)? Playing that way may be fun for some people, but if the majority of people don't like playing as him that way, he becomes unappealing too most. Saying he has a Skill Floor means nothing, everything has a Skill Floor, it's the fact that his Skill Floor is higher then it needs to be, and the Skill Ceiling, IMHO, isn't much higher.

 

His skill ceiling is also high because as said, he has so much potential that his potential scales along with EVERYTHING in this game. Gun decides his fighting power. Enemy decides his utility making him scale along with something that has infinite skill scaling. Teammate decide how often his skill can be used because all of them comes with a condition (beside soul punch). The way you play also decide how strong some skill will be like SotD and how well you can keep track of your kills.

 

Let's be honest and just say 90% of the frames in this games have extremely low skill floor and  teach people absolutely nothing. Rhino is the worst case example. Most player rely too much on their frame skills instead of their own actual skill, and they hate to be told that they only got far because their frame had been saving their butt the whole time. Like, I still see complaints in ODS and infected and I'm like "guise, I solo them for a long time for a Nekros :I Stop QQing just because something drained your energy causing you to be useless and just shoot instead."

This is not applicable to PvE in Warframe, but the fact that you can't just spam "4" to win does make Nekros feel a little more rewarding to succeed with, it's one of the reasons I still play as him from time to time, if not solely because of the farming ability. I also get why some players find Nekros appealing as he is, is because he has the greatest farming potential in the game, and if DE were to change Desecrate to not spawn additional mods/parts anymore, they would be crucified by the community because Nekros has NOTHING ELSE TO FALL BACK ON. Take away his Desecrate, and he's got "Shadows of the Dead" as his only decent scaling move, but it requires you to kill things first, thus making it less efficient in team games.

 

Taking away his Desecrate would remove the faulty design behind his kit. When they do, then they can actually add potential damage to his kit because he will no longer be the super farmer anymore. Right now, his ability to farm is what broke him, It gave him too much reward as I stated before. Every survival you go, you want a Nekros. Every defense you go, after you get a Nyx and some damage, you want a Nekros. Nekros save time, something you cannot earn back no matter what. This is what makes him so broken despite having low offensive power. Nekros goes against the very system of RNG and grinding itself.

 

The real problem I have with him, is I don't find him fun, perhaps do to a belief that I am using a Necromancer, only to discover I'm more of a Grave Robber with spooky ghosts.

 

Not to say a grave digger with spooky ghosts can't be fun, but it's not what was advertised, nor does Nekros' kit offer me anything more then Loot Farm in terms of gamepaly. I just feel like there are BETTER WAYS for Nekros to work as a playable Necromancer.

 

Just "raising the dead" and "abusing the dead" is already fitting for the theme. He just needs a couple of tweaking to terrify (slow on fear and no cap) and he will be perfect to play. Sadly, you just can't erase the fact that Nekros has no actual combat ezmodo button. We are lazy. We love to look for the easiest way out that has the most reward. Because of this, we turned all our attention toward his desecrate, which pretty much say "you can be useful by not doing anything" and we all just stick with it despite how boring it is and how they are the one ruining the frame themselves. Sometime, you have to look back that it's the player's fault and not the game's fault.

 

Tell me, whats the point of Nekros having four different abilities, if only two of them are ever used (one if your playing with friends)? When I play as Volt or Mag, I actually really enjoy having, and using all 4 abilities, because each one is helpful. When I play as Nyx or Rhino however, I only use two of their abilties, does that mean they are badly designed characters? not at all (and that isn't what I'm saying about any of the Warframes that need reworks). Do I think the other moves could be altered to make the Warframes not only feel more accessible to the average player, but also have more of a unique style of play to offer, one that is inviting and can be altered late game with mods for a variety of different builds? CERTAINLY.

 

Ash only has one ability and people are okay with it because it's the "Ezmodo" button. (Bladestorm). His stealth is barely used because no one can see you to begin with if they are all dead. Nekros kit is even better than Ash in the long run (because damage stop scaling after a certain point) but because it's not a spammable ezmodo button, it's badly designed by default.

 

But it's gonna require a big push from the community to ask for it, or DE is just gonna keep putting out other stuff....which is fine, until they do get to a point where balance becomes a distant dream, a faded memory of a concept lost in time and space....I'd rather the game feel more accessible and polished BEFORE we get too far ahead with crazy new stuff to keep us interested like Vehicle based levels and Space combat (which I don't think will happen, but who knows lol)

 

In quote

[Temfist]

@ Zeitzbach

 

:D

 

 

thank you, that was some nice feed back! It is a bit hard to read with the poor "bold" option we are provided, but I appreciate it (try underline and italicize next time, I think it's easier on the eyes)

 

I guess that removing the "farming" skill from Nekros is the key here. The rework Idea I had could still work without Desecrate farming extra mods and parts, since you could still use it to sustain your party, but then the durations on the "Shadow Puppets" would need to be fairly short (like 6/8/10/12 seconds, affected by power duration) in order to balance such a good utility move.

 

Any you got a solid point, People consider his Skill Floor Higher due to his lack of a "Let me just stand her and watch you die horribly" power spam.

 

That said, for me, the fun factor for Nekros is determined by the fact that I feel like a machine, having to constantly spam powers non-stop, only taking short breathes, and problematically, not even my change to Desecrate would really fix that, unless it just simply was a "Toggle" move.

 

that being said, what if you Toggle Desecrate on and off, and while it was on, all dead bodies you come into contact with have a chance of being looted and raised from the dead as a "Shadow Puppet" per second (only costs energy when it procs on a dead body). Desecrate wouldn't work on "Shadow Puppets" so you could just keep it on until your energy is getting low or whatever. Then you could also turn on "Terrify" as an Aura, with a Toggle effect, and while that would possibly drain you really fast, you'd have the option. I dunno, there are a lot of possible ways to change how the skills work to make Nekros feel more powerful and interesting, but I've only come up with these ideas so far that I'm rather fond of lol.

 

So, if you want, we can always brainstorm some new ideas if these ones sound too different or possibly broken, etc.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Temphis

[Zeitzbach]

Toggling desecrate was often brought up and is one of the scarier suggestions to work with. Desecrate is still % based and even if the thing pops every 2 seconds, failing 3-4 time in a row is still a possibility and unable to use it on demand can pretty much ruin the ability when you fight against infecteds as their bodies will disintegrate is about 4 seconds and only lasts for about 6 at most.

 

Shadow pet sounds nice but after awhile, the scaling is going to take a lot of hit and it will become just a meh part of the skill. Also, having over 30 puppet in the area after killing the infected trapped in Vauban's Vortex = have fun with the lag.

 

I would actually like it more if the ability has its "Second loot roll" and the red orb rate switched. 90% for it to work and spawn a healer orb with 60% double loot rate. Although this will reduce his farming potential by a certain amount, it will also greatly reduce the amount of time Desecrate will be used while keeping his combat ability to fight the same (and also making it more reliable since my orb will be around in a shorter amount of time and less energy). With the farming potential nerfed, we can finally distribute that nerfed power to the other part of his kit.

 

(But let's be honest, even if the double loot rate was reduced to 10%, people would still demand the Nekros do nothing but press 3 because loots = loots. Only complete removal will fix the "Press 3 only" forcing playstyle on the Nekros. Imagine if % starts to scale with power now. People would just make you spam more with Overextended with the lower chance. There's absolutely no option here but to rework desecrate as a whole and that would be the most hated patch in this game history so DE wouldn't do that.)

 

I used to have this funny idea if the corpse were to release a debuff cloud or something instead that can stack (using the current animation) and reduce the opposing side armor, damage and speed by a certain amount (like 25% multiplicatively), it would actually be nice to have. Snipe a couple of target, desecrate then go out and wipe them all. But then again, I doubt anyone will agree to this because it will add to the skill floor even more while also greatly reducing the reward.

 

 

Soul punch

 

 

It's hard to work with this skill. The 25 energy cost are always the hardest. Any CC is nulled by Terrify and the only utility it can bring that will scale and not break the game is

 

1) some kind of status proc.

 

or as suggested before

 

2) Armor reduction

 

Which will be really useful especially when used on bosses that scale now. It will also help if you aren't running 4x Corrosive Projection.

 

 

Terrify

 

 

Terrify as an aura looks nice but what if we just add a second part of the skill to it after removing the target cap?

 

Current Terrify will fear up to 20 meter and 12 targets.

 

My suggestion is that beside adding the slow and possibly removing the target cap

 

-Make it so that targets within 5 meters will not run away, but cower in fear (Animation will be like bleedout) for the entire duration instead.

 

or

 

-Don't reduce the terrified targets' speed but add a 5 meter aura around the Nekros while Terrify is active. Any terrified target within that area will fall down and cower in fear as they try to slowly crawl away until they are outside that range where they will attempt to stand up and run again. Normal targets will be slowed and deal less damage.

 

Both option will still have the current CD mechanic.

 

It will really fit the "Scaryasfk" theme because when you panic, you don't only just run. You fall and wait for your turn to die. This will also make the terrify a lot more reliable as an offensive tool as well if the player wish to use it to chase down enemy, or just stick to assisting.

 

SotD is better off the way it currently is. Just fix the bug with some eximus not spawning its normal version when killed, especially the Shield Eximus. Try soling for a bit and you will love this when you got the hang of it, especially when you kill a healer ancient and spawn it immediately. You're so tanky with the new aura system. When they all die, desecrate for easy heal (don't forget equilibrium!). SotD pretty much seperates the bad from the good.

 

The reason I really love Nekros, beside the design, is the "If I mess up, I die" kind of playstyle. No other frames is this tense to play. Oberon for example, despite how horribad it is to people, still has Reckoning as the lifeline. As a Nekros, my lifeline was "Carrier + I hope desecrate spawn a lot of red orb) and that I won't get CC'd at all. The latter completely depending on my own ability to cc immune through all of it while also copter toward my cover.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Zeitzbach

[__Kanade__]

I like how Shadows of The Dead works. I like picking off certain enemies I want to use like heavies, healers and osprey.

 

The only change I would like to see is the shadows given their own hp based off their original lvl when they were taken out instead of a timer.

 

He's still a good support frame either way.

Edited July 25, 2014 by __Kanade__

[Moderius]

That is still not validating your observations, your just restating them with really vague and broad generalizations, of which the only point you made (Neo "Shadows of the Dead" not scaling) is only an assumption based on the fact that I didn't clarify how the stats of the "Shadow Specters" are determined. (this would have been a good time to input your own ideas on how to improve what I listed. I'm obviously not perfect, and so any "idea/suggestion" I post is gonna need to be "tested", and never would be put in the game as is.)

 

So my claim that your Shadows wouldn't scale is wrong, because it might scale, even though you don't know how, can't explain how, and made no mention to it scaling. Well, except you did.

and their damage is effected by power strength, 

 

So when I point out the problem with that, it obviously means something other than what you said. Obviously!

 

You continue to plow ahead with the assumption that I should come up with a "better" way for your changes to work. Which works on the flawed assumption that the ability should be changed in the first place. You're basically asking for people to propose changes to an ability that they do not want changed. Which goes to show how entrenched you are in your opinion of changing it.

 

My original point still stands. If you think every single frame needs a rework and buff, there is something wrong with how you approach design. I can prove it with two words: "Power Creep". There are other things, but that's the simplest.

[Moderius]

Here, I'll bullet-point some other issues.

 

24 minions at a time: a thousand reasons for this to be no. Four Nekros on a squad, that is a potential 100 units just on one side of the fight. Even with one Nekros, that's clutter blocking both sides. 

 

Nekros would need every caster stat increased to use his abilities even slightly effectively.

 

Terrify's change would completely negate it being a reliable, immediate source of defensive CC.

 

Desecrate's change would completely remove Nekros from his supportive role in a squad.

 

You throw "scale with power strength" at everything to keep it vague. Aforementioned Desecrate's chance too low? Well it scales with power strength to an unspecified degree!

 

And the real kicker: If any of this even worked and scaled, you would just sit back as your 24 minions constantly fought everything and you, in the middle of 24 allied units, would be doing...what? Pumping out more minions? So is "Minion factory" so much better than "Desecrate factory"? What, exactly, is going to be fun and engaging about your final product? How is it going to be beneficial for the team?

 

All of this falls into the problem with how you approach design for Nekros. Let's assume you look at an unfinished painting. Your opinion is that it is a sloppy portrait of a person. However, it is actually an unfinished still-life of a fruit bowl. But here you are, listing all the problems with the colors and structure of the face and proportions. But it's a fruit bowl. But you continue to criticize it and demand changes be made to make it more like a portrait. Because that's what you think it should be.

The problem is, you see Nekros as something entirely different. The problem is, some players like Nekros just as he is. And the problem is, that you are here, saying this needs to change, that Nekros isn't right, and that his concept is wrong. The real problem is that you're proposing Nekros be made into a different Warframe. Not a buff. Not a rework. A Warframe based entirely on something else. That's the problem. 

[Perserve]

What a great Idea! I'd feel like playing an actual necromancer and not a loot bot.

[Hueminator]

Desecrate should also leave some lingering fire or just straight out "corpse explosion with loots"

[zenksy]

i like the sound of exploding corpse with descreate, its like a beatbox barbarian and corpse explosion necro combined.

[fatpig84]

We don't need massive re-works for every character imo.

I prefer simple usable changes instead of fancy effects.

 

1) Soul Punch

On impact it causes an explosion.

Sending enemies near the impact point to rag doll and damage whoever they hit when flying through.

 

 

2) Terrify.

No target limit. Enemies attempt to run from you for X duration.

Slows targets down by 40%.

Reduces target armor and shields by 25%.

Both effects can be boosted by power strength.

 

Terrify armor reduction will take place AFTER Corrosive Projection.

So if target has 2k armor, corrosive projection reduces it by 75%, that means 500 armor.

Terrify (at max no blind rage) will reduce this further by another 25%, that means target will only have 375 armor.

 

 

There you have a frame if boosted correctly, can let you deal all your damage dealing needs without stacking excessive corrosive projection and naturally cutting down armor helps Shadows tremendously.

 

If you want to further boost shadows of the dead, just increasing their base line stats will be sufficient.

At rank 3, Shadows have 40% extra hp and 40% extra damage. Again can be increased by power strength.

Edited July 26, 2014 by fatpig84

[(PSN)oracle-ryuu]

 

Nekros is almost fine, except in the new Dark Sector Conflicts, where he is far from the top frames.

 

Also, like many, I do not feel a lot the necromancer theme.

 

Here are a few suggestions regarding these matters:

 

 

 

Light tweak

 

Desecrate, when applied on Tennos, could prevent revive (temporary or permanently adjust for balance).

 

 

 

Heavy version

 

First power: Desecrate

Just like current power, but with a small addition: captures the soul of the victims (they become "flies" around Nekros and increases a counter on the Desecrate icon).

Max X (20?) souls, increased by power strength

 

Second power: Haunt

(A merge of Soul Punch and Terrify)

Nekros grabs a soul and sends it to haunt enemies.

Reuse Kunai throwing animation, but throws a skull (skull flies just like Kunai). Upon impact, deals D damages in R meters radius. Damaged enemies cower in terror for T seconds. Terror could reuse the "engulfed in flames" animation from the fire status proc, without flames. (The terror part might do nothing or be just a stun in PvP)

Cost: E energy + X souls

Adjust E, X, D, R and T for balance.

 

Third power: Raise the Deads

Sacrifice some souls to instantly revive fallen tennos in R radius.

Cost: E energy + X souls per tenno

Optionnal (because might be too powerful): if Nekros is down, if he has at least 2 X souls and E energy left, he can use this power during the bleedout to self-revive (death does not means much for a necromancer). Drains all souls to prevent abuses.

Adjust R, E and X for balance. Maybe only revives at a percent of max health (increased by power strength).

 

Fouth power: Shadows of the Deads

Almost like current power.

Channeled.

Cost: E1 energy + E2 energy per second + 1 soul per shadow

Max N shadows, but can be created in several times.

This would just add versatility and mobility for Nekros. It would also allow to create 1 soul for a quick sacrifice, or a full army, depending on the situation.

 

 im not so sure about that, it would require a lot of major reworking, and i think it would be better to simply use the tools he as now but maybe reworked. as for you Semshol. firstly i'd like to say that i respect you view, and i see its validity, a GOOD player can probably make the most out of any frame as is. and i agree that maybe some of the buffs that Temphis suggested are maybe a little over the top. but lets look at how MOST people view Nekros. MOST people seem to regard him as " the farming warframe" and don't use him for anything else. i would think most people DON'T have fun with him because of that. I for open try to see him differently. i DO think desecrate is his most useful support skill, but not to farm mods, but get health and energy orbs. the extra mod drops is just a bonus. HOWEVER... i like Temphis' idea because it makes sense, and would, (Probably) allow more players to have fun with him. i particularly like the desecrate idea, which allows him to be useful as an aggro puller and additional loot dropper. maybe his form of shadows of the undead needs to be tweaked a little. but terrify and soul punch definitely need buffs/ and or reworking-and as a bonus, here's why i think WHY.

 

TERRIFY- is nekros' panic switch, when he's gonna die, you flip the switch and your enemies go running. my only problem with it as it stands is that you must wait for it to wear off, which easily allows the second wave of enemies to flies in and strike down your poor warframe. temphis, im sorry, but your plan for terrify is a little much. let nekros use it as many times as he like, (the downside being of course he'll waste energy) and' i think it'll work out better.

 

Soul Punch: who says a warframe can't have all of his abilities be useful? sure many warframes have the 1 or 2 abilities everyone uses, but i think that ALL a warframes powers should be useable in SOME way. allowing for unique playstyles. JUST LOOK AT HYDROID! all of his abilities are useful and well thought out, there damage may not scale well but their stun utility rocks wherever you are and thats GREAT! souls punch is......lack luster, even near the beginning. the added shadow puppet mechanic might be stretching it, but i still like it, being able to selectively build your army without having to keep track of who you killed. plus, it would still require marksmanship and timing so you don't waste your energy-SKILL INVILVED HOLY CRUD!-. if thats still too much for you then maybe just a stun AOE that radiates from the target, so it knocks down enemies for some CC, (i know he's a support role but lets give him some solo viability here!).

 

again do not please for the love of god do NOT take this as an angry rant. its more like, widening your horizons! not every player is skilled enough to use every warframe, but a fighting chance is nice! and everyone can appreciate a good class that can hold its own without too much trouble. (not to say that an unskilled player should be able to solo a t4 mission with a mediocre build. lets keep some challenge right?)

 

And moderius....i might be inviting scorn here, but to be fair you didn't really back up your points, whereas Semshol did.  i disagree that Temphis' proposal would be a nerf if the 12 summoned spectres are more practical, than 24 mediocre enemy AI's. and his take on desecrate is not a mess. a little raw, true, but some form of additional utility to Desecrate would certainly make me feel better about spamming it all the time,

 

Temphis had a point when he posted this. 

 

here is how Nekros feels to me when I play as him right now

 

 

Here is what I think of when I think of a necromancer themed character, and what it would feel like

 

Who would you rather play as? A skeleton that loots dead bodies? or a guy that summons a legion of minions to fight his enemies?

 

I'm not suggesting a super buff here man, just a rework of how he plays/works (but since Nekros is pretty weak and offers no alternative to gun play this may seem like a super buff.....)

 

because lets be honest, theres no enough lich's in the world where you can really ...y'know..do this......if you want to disagree you are more than welcome too, but i'd like to here WHY. you may actually have a really good point we're not considering!

[Warrior-Ninja]

I prefer now not responding. I did not even understand why someone needs something constantly remake. This warframe works perfect way. gl hf

Edited July 26, 2014 by -CZ-Plutos

[Sh4rk3y]

Shadow of the dead doesn't need a rework, just a slight buff. Better AI, 20% more damage and give us back the chance to spawn Eximus units.

The shadows level scale with the enemies killed level, so it's really good for long runs. I use a 4 only build Nekros and i'm having lot of fun with him, don't see why people want to rework his ulti.

[CephalonBMO]

I agree with the OP he needs change I want to main Nekros but all i would do is desecrate and desecrate and desecrate. I would be crazy to ever use Shadows of the Dead cause

1) Bad Ai they just stand there and they are not viable

2) You are a MAJOR UNMOVING TARGET the cast time is too long for useless minions

3) I dont even know what I would spawn 1 heavy gunner and 11 normal ones arent worth it I rather pick my targets

 

I love the idea of some kind of tenno spectres that directly charge at the target better yet they generate threat as 1) they save you 2)they distract the enemy

 

I think Shadow Punch should mark the target so upon death it resurrects as a minion

Desecrate is ok as it is

Terrify should be an aura like Banshee's Silence but don't make it that they run away from you as that is very annoying make it so that they can't target you or make it so they heavily lose their accuracy

[MattHarrigan]

In appreciation of the notion for a nekros rework, I'm reposting my own, rather unpopular post about a Nekros rework. Please consider it aswell. Ideas For A Meaningful Nekros Rework

[Moderius]

What a great Idea! I'd feel like playing an actual necromancer and not a loot bot.

 

Read again:

 

 So is "Minion factory" so much better than "Desecrate factory"? 

[(PSN)oracle-ryuu]

Shadow of the dead doesn't need a rework, just a slight buff. Better AI, 20% more damage and give us back the chance to spawn Eximus units.

The shadows level scale with the enemies killed level, so it's really good for long runs. I use a 4 only build Nekros and i'm having lot of fun with him, don't see why people want to rework his ulti.

i can respect that, Shadows of the undead really does work fine, my earlier post was mostly a rework for it so that it would operate better with the other ability reworks that were suggested. but as to the attack boost, i'd like to bring forward the concept that this IS a Support frame: not a warrior. his abilities are meant to support his allies....sorta. a good point i saw in a review for nekros is that even though he is a "support" frame, his abilities feel oddly self serving, with benefits to his allies merely being a side-effect. I love the idea around this and feel it would make him unique amongst the other support warframes. And that's kind of how I wanted him remodeled, so that all of his abilities primarily support himself (for soloers out there) but have secondary benefits for others. for example, terrify, the panic button, it gets Nekros out of a jam... but helps his allies by reducing the enemies armor, thats almost perfect! removing the cap and letting him use more often would make it the perfect support / selfish ability that fits nekros. im not going to go "all in" on the abilities again, but I feel i established the point i was trying to make. he DOESN'T need  MAJOR rework, just enough to give him some versatility in playstyles. i.e, solo or support roles, minion raiser vs loot bot, or a balance between those things.

[(PSN)Goldengeartwo]

I like.

[-Scourge]

nice ideas but it could use some tweaks

 

3 of his skills make allies, needs a little bit of.. variety.

 

also added a link to your thread in mine. +1

 

Scourge Of The Living (Nekros Overhaul) [Re-Done]

Edited July 27, 2014 by -Scourge

[(PSN)oracle-ryuu]

nice ideas but it could use some tweaks

 

3 of his skills make allies, needs a little bit of.. variety.

 

also added a link to your thread in mine. +1

 

Scourge Of The Living (Nekros Overhaul) [Re-Done]

hm, you have a point there, but what if the "allies" did different things. for example, the Soul punch mechanic would bring about a typical shadow, like the ones from Shadows of the undead currently. and possible shadows from Desecrate, would NOT be smart cover taking AI's, but suicide runners, as if nekros had primed them to be toxic explosives, that really would be desecrating their bodies then, (somehow need to work the loot drop into that though). and his ult, Shadows of the undead, raises the berserker tenno, with smarter AI's to have some use guns, and some use melee, all while taking on aggro

 

 

Ps. i'm pushing for the additional allies as a mean for support, by taking aggro OFF of nekros (and consequently other players), while laying down some cover fire. the shadows don't have to be particularly strong, but they should be dense, or scale with this enemies as that seems to be one of the BIG arguments against this form of ability arrangement.

[-Scourge]

 

that could work :o