Ember Still Needs A Rework

[Azawarau]

He has more than redeemed himself, at least in my eyes.  Yelling at him about how he's posting in a negative manner is only going to promote more of the behavior you are decrying.  Controlling your own reaction to S#&$posting is the biggest way that you as an individual can contribute to this forum being less S#&$ty overall.  That goes not just for you in this forum, but everyone in every forum. 

If someone is posting badly im going to point it out

 

What anyone else has to say doesnt bother me in the least

 

Youve been one of the better posters ive seen but this guy needs to stop with this

 

Read our first few posts where he makes wild claims and then agrees with me when i tell him hes wrong but tells me im still wrong

 

Its not even about that for me

 

Its about spreading misinformation. Literally the worst on any forum

 

You let it go and it becomes accepted as a fact slowly and suddenly you have a gang of people who dont know any better telling you youre wrong

 

What happened to Gas damage?

]

Someone checked the wiki and saw how many enemies resisted it

 

Now people think its bad

 

People follow DPS charts without taking status procs into account for added DPS and say things like the Serro is weaker than Orthos

 

Ive been foruming long enough to know not to let this slide

[Monolake]

Good luck killing Ancients with fire damage alone, while they pull, energy drain and poison your poor Ember.

She is crap even vs Infested now.

[RealPandemonium]

Good luck killing Ancients with fire damage alone, while they pull, energy drain and poison your poor Ember.

She is crap even vs Infested now.

I'm not that good at games and I have no problem with the Infested faction because I am capable of running backwards while also targeting the heavy units first and killing at my leisure.  Sometimes, I even have to copter or jump-kick away!  Very exciting.

Edited July 24, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

I'm not that good at games and I have no problem with the Infested faction because I am capable of running backwards while also targeting the heavy units first and killing at my leisure.  Sometime, I even have to copter or jump-kick away!  Very exciting.

It helps if you got a life strike on when you are low as well. But having to quickly switch to melee can get complicated in intense situations.

[Monolake]

I'm not that good at games and I have no problem with the Infested faction because I am capable of running backwards while also targeting the heavy units first and killing at my leisure.  Sometime, I even have to copter or jump-kick away!  Very exciting.

Not anymore. New ancient eat her alive. The stun from accelerant is not even enough to start WoF unless you use talent, the more I use WoF the more it feels like a waste of time and energy. Weapons kill faster.  Also accelerant  doesnt stop ancients pull (its not Embers personal problem but a bs mechanics, but still)

Edited July 24, 2014 by Monolake

[Azawarau]

Good luck killing Ancients with fire damage alone, while they pull, energy drain and poison your poor Ember.

She is crap even vs Infested now.

I can do that just fine

 

Accelerant then shoot

 

Or Accelerant>WoF and shoot

 

Or just stand in a high spot because infested suck

 

I'm not that good at games and I have no problem with the Infested faction because I am capable of running backwards while also targeting the heavy units first and killing at my leisure.  Sometime, I even have to copter or jump-kick away!  Very exciting.

This^

 

People seriously over exaggerate

 

You see what i was talking about dont you?

Not anymore. New ancient eat her alive. The stun from accelerant is not even enough to start WoF unless you use talent, the more I use WoF the more it feels like a waste of time and energy. Weapons kill faster.  Also accelerant  doesnt stop ancients pull (its not Embers personal problem but a bs mechanics, but still)

I hadnt realized the stun was lowered

 

Oh wait

[RealPandemonium]

Not anymore. New ancient eat her alive. The stun from accelerant is not even enough to start WoF unless you use talent, the more I use WoF the more it feels like a waste of time and energy. Weapons kill faster.  Also accelerant  doesnt stop ancients pull (its not Embers personal problem but a bs mechanics, but still)

In every thread I have been stressing that WoF is a flawed design and that in her current state Ember is better off not bringing it to high-end content.  Feedback should be focused toward the issues that ability has in particular.  My suggestion is that they make it a toggle so that it doesn't depend on duration mods and no longer wastes significant amount of energy on most casts. 

[Azawarau]

In every thread I have been stressing that WoF is a flawed design and that in her current state Ember is better off not bringing it to high-end content.  Feedback should be focused toward the issues that ability has in particular.  My suggestion is that they make it a toggle so that it doesn't depend on duration mods and no longer wastes significant amount of energy on most casts. 

Itd sync incredibly with Fireball and Accelerant that both would use the exact same boosting mods and save ember 3 mod slots

 

Though 2 of those 3 are likely going to be energy efficiency so shell have a tight build still but much more rewarding for the effort

Edited July 24, 2014 by Azawarau

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

In every thread I have been stressing that WoF is a flawed design and that in her current state Ember is better off not bringing it to high-end content.  Feedback should be focused toward the issues that ability has in particular.  My suggestion is that they make it a toggle so that it doesn't depend on duration mods and no longer wastes significant amount of energy on most casts.

I agree but for argument sake let say they actually do that there still is not enough damage output for that endgame content. Sure it would fix the casting duration but the problem still resides in the damage of her casts.

 

There also the fact that her abilities are conveluted. Allow me to explain:

 

It's evident that you want maximum damage because that is embers strength

 

Problem is, by increasing your strength (w/ blind rage) you are degrading your efficiency and have to add fleeting since you absolutely need accelerant as a cheap cast.

 

And if WOF is toggle it would stop here. But in it's current state by increasing the efficency the duration just gets thrown out of the window. And lets be honest WOF is not a very long cast.

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Maybe they can make it so accelerant works like banshee's silence. The Aoe would cause the debuffs. It is theoretically the same thing but you are pressing 2 less.

 

And WOF need some sort of duration increase. That is for sure

 

I dont mind ember being not as powerful as lets say a Nova. But if her power strengths are weaker, then she should have at least a little bit of armor or health. Or as i mentioned before some sort of ability to replace fire blast that allows ember to defend herself. Maybe like a temporary heat aura that burns a percentage of projectiles or maybe and ability when ember turns into lava and absorbs the bullets (this is not toggle) its a 5 second cast and releases that lava towards her enemies, and each bullet taken increases her damage by a small number.

Edited July 24, 2014 by NudistBeach

[Monolake]

I can do that just fine

 

Accelerant then shoot

 

Or Accelerant>WoF and shoot

 

Or just stand in a high spot because infested suck

 

This^

 

People seriously over exaggerate

 

You see what i was talking about dont you?

I hadnt realized the stun was lowered

 

Oh wait

Not anymore, try to solo Pluto darksector survival with Ember for 15 min and get rekt by ancients. 

Then take, I dont know, Saryn and see how much better she fares. Ember is low-end frame even vs Infested already.

[RealPandemonium]

I never bring a max Blind Rage.  I run a rank two Blind Rage for maximum damage:energy ratio; along with 90% efficiency that comes out to 57% strength 75% efficiency.  I would say that WoF has fine damage output but that we can't actually use it if it only lasts a few seconds, thus the duration dependence.  Really, making it a toggle with a steeper than average energy cost would be perfect since you wouldn't brainlessly run it all the time (hi Nyx) but could pump out extra damage when you need it while also having more modding freedom and not wasting half of the energy you used to cast it due to having toi recast it all the time in between the times you need it.  

[Azawarau]

I agree but for argument sake let say they actually do that there still is not enough damage output for that endgame content. Sure it would fix the casting duration but the problem still resides in the damage of her casts.

 

There also the fact that her abilities are conveluted. Allow me to explain:

 

It's evident that you want maximum damage because that is embers strength

 

Problem is, by increasing your strength (w/ blind rage) you are degrading your efficiency and have to add fleeting since you absolutely need accelerant as a cheap cast.

 

And if WOF is toggle it would stop here. But in it's current state by increasing the efficency the duration just gets thrown out of the window. And lets be honest WOF is not a very long cast.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe they can make it so accelerant works like banshee's silence. The Aoe would cause the debuffs. It is theoretically the same thing but you are pressing 2 less.

 

And WOF need some sort of duration increase. That is for sure

 

I dont mind ember being not as powerful as lets say a Nova. But if her power strengths are weaker, then she should have at least a little bit of armor or health. Or as i mentioned before some sort of ability to replace fire blast that allows ember to defend herself. Maybe like a temporary heat aura that burns a percentage of projectiles or maybe and ability when ember turns into lava and absorbs the bullets (this is not toggle) its a 5 second cast and releases that lava towards her enemies, and each bullet taken increases her damage by a small number.

Use max fleeting and blind rage

 

It costs 5% less to spam accelerant

 

Add streamline to lower it to 35% less with the full damage modifiers

 

With the two lower durational mods maxed and narrow minded half ranked with stretch to balance range youll end up with 15ish seconds of WoF at a cost of 65ish and a spammable 35ish energy Accelerant

 

If WoF becomes a toggle then youll receive all the benefits with no drawbacks

 

Not anymore, try to solo Pluto darksector survival with Ember for 15 min and get rekt by ancients. 

Then take, I dont know, Saryn and see how much better she fares. Ember is low-end frame even vs Infested already.

I did that with SOTD Nekros and the Serro

 

At least throw a reasonable challenge

[RealPandemonium]

Use max fleeting and blind rage

 

It costs 5% less to spam accelerant

 

Add streamline to lower it to 35% less with the full damage modifiers

 

With the two lower durational mods maxed and narrow minded half ranked with stretch to balance range youll end up with 15ish seconds of WoF at a cost of 65ish and a spammable 35ish energy Accelerant

I'll take a 3.92x multiplierAccelerant that costs 13 energy over a 5x multiplier Accelerant that costs 33 energy any day. 

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Can I just add this in:

 

These Are Embers Stats w/ max Vitality/Redirection

 

Some others just to compare

Nekros

 

Mag

 

This upsets me

 

Nova clearly does much more damage than Ember and yet she has much more armor than Ember 50 more to be exact. Sure, nova has less health and shield but in the end she will still out survive Ember because of her abilities. I know that the armor not seem like alot but in addition, Nova has MP to slow down enemies and can use wormhole to reach higher places to prevent her from getting shot. If the tradeoff is Health for Casting power for these damage frames why don't these rules apply to ember.

 

Mirage is debately one of the squishiest frames in the game. But thats alright because she has buffs like eclipse and hall of mirrors that prevent her from getting shot. So why can't ember have something similar? Nova is really weak and that is alright! Because her damage output is out of this world!

 

And just to put it out there Djinn can out-tank ember just saying

 

please dont tell me that this is alright...

Edited July 24, 2014 by NudistBeach

[Azawarau]

I'll take a 3.92x multiplierAccelerant that costs 13 energy over a 5x multiplier Accelerant that costs 33 energy any day. 

I use rage because #IGETREALLYMADWHENIBURNTHINGS

 

Can I just add this in:

 

These Are Embers Stats w/ max Vitality/Redirection

 

Some others just to compare

Nekros

 

Mag

 

This upsets me

 

Nova clearly does much more damage than Ember and yet she has much more armor than Ember 50 more to be exact. Sure, nova has less health and shield but in the end she will still out survive Ember because of her abilities. I know that the armor not seem like alot but in addition, Nova has MP to slow down enemies and can use wormhole to reach higher places to prevent her from getting shot. If the tradeoff is Health for Casting power for these damage frames why don't these rules apply to ember.

 

Mirage is debately one of the squishiest frames in the game. But thats alright because she has buffs like eclipse and hall of mirrors that prevent her from getting shot. So why can't ember have something similar? Nova is really weak and that is alright! Because her damage output is out of this world!

 

And just to put it out there Djinn can out-tank ember just saying

 

please dont tell me that this is alright...

You do realize the difference between 15 nd 65 armor is near nothing right?

 

And again going for the bad arguments

 

Taking a cheap shot with a comparison to nova being softer but dealing more damage

 

Something she does compared to literally every frame

 

Youre the worst comedian ever, these jokes are old and worn out

 

Mirage Hall of mirros is debatable against 2/4 factions because non hit scan weapons become much more likely to hit her when theyre fired around her constantly rather than right at her. Dodging becomes an issue

 

Oh an Djiinn can outtank Nova too so whats your point there?

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

 

And again going for the bad arguments

 

Taking a cheap shot with a comparison to nova being softer but dealing more damage

 

Something she does compared to literally every frame

 

Youre the worst comedian ever, these jokes are old and worn out

 

 

Im not even going to bother anymore so heres a happy face

 

:)

Edited July 24, 2014 by NudistBeach

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

I'll take a 3.92x multiplierAccelerant that costs 13 energy over a 5x multiplier Accelerant that costs 33 energy any day. 

Yea tru dat frequency > Strength

Edited July 24, 2014 by NudistBeach

[RealPandemonium]

Comparing any frame to Nova is laughable.  Nova's the best at pretty much everything. 

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Comparing any frame to Nova is laughable.  Nova's the best at pretty much everything. 

Yes but im just looking at it at a techincal level. You are right about that tho.

[Azawarau]

Im not even going to bother anymore so heres a happy face

 

:)

Youve got nothing good to offer outside of smiling to keep yourself from looking worse

 

+1 for getting smart for once

 

Comparing any frame to Nova is laughable.  Nova's the best at pretty much everything. 

Pretty much all he does

 

Read below

 

Yes but im just looking at it at a techincal level. You are right about that tho.

Then why make bad comparison as if theres a point

[RealPandemonium]

It is true that people compare Ember to Nova because people are obsessed with the "glass cannon" label.  Nova isn't actually a glass cannon, though, due to MPrime's slow and other factors that allow her to reduce or avoid damage.  Ember's combination of medium range abilities and proactive defense creates a fun, fast-paced, exciting play style (IMO) that is radically different from Nova's.  I think most of the people who provide inaccurate feedback don't have a good understanding of game mechanics or have only halfheartedly tried the frame. 

[Azawarau]

It is true that people compare Ember to Nova because people are obsessed with the "glass cannon" label.  Nova isn't actually a glass cannon, though, due to MPrime's slow and other factors that allow her to reduce or avoid damage.  Ember's combination of medium range abilities and proactive defense creates a fun, fast-paced, exciting play style (IMO) that is radically different from Nova's.  I think most of the people who provide inaccurate feedback don't have a good understanding of game mechanics or have only halfheartedly tried the frame. 

This happens far too often on these forums

[Holynight6]

To that comment earlier, I'll confirm my Ember has exactly 5 formas on it. Anyway:

Overlooking the armour, she's an average-tank frame with a nice energy pool, so I think we can just look at her abilities.

 

What would people say to the following, if implemented in part or as a whole:

1. WoF, initial cast reduced to 25 energy, costs 12 energy p/s to maintain

2. Accelerant duration rescaled to 8/12/16/20 second duration.

3. Fireblast energy cost reduced to 50 energy, the ring has a 100% status chance the first time each enemy passes through it. Now scales with power range.

4. Fireblast is now more transparent, and doesn't limit tenno vision range to a 4m radius

5. Initial cast of Fireblast staggers enemies in the area.

 

I based the numbers of #1 on Nyx and Banshee, who have similarly operating ultimates. I feel this type of ability would do wonders for Ember, as it frees up a lot of mod slots previously used in duration.

#2 was to reduce the impact of not having duration mods, the negative duration on fleeting expertise, and open up options for ember players outside of spamming accelerant every 5 seconds to maintain the debuff. I'm not sure if it's enough or if a different approach would be better.

#3 makes fireblast quite viable against infected, operating like a 3 second duration bastille disable but with added damage. Also adds a guaranteed two or three ticks of damage, rather than enemies sprinting through to the center and only taking one.

#4 is just a wishlist thing of mine after months of bleeding eyes.

#5 is more a quality of life fix, and allows fireblast to be used more offensively. I feel a knockdown would be too powerful here, whereas a stagger should nicely cover the cast time.

 

Rather than replacing fireblast, I feel we can tweak it to fill a niche. The concept is good, namely punishing enemies who try to close the distance, but considering its limitations I feel that punishment needs to be a lot harsher. Adding a control element and reducing the cost should make the ability more viable.

 

 

For anyone curious, here's what I'm using:

http://i.imgur.com/dkVc9KX.jpg

Edited July 25, 2014 by Holynight6

[Bazookagofer]

Why bring an ember when I can bring a rhino who with one stomp will do more damage to an entire room than an ember and also the rhino can survive much longer... and if his ult don't kill em it makes em helpless.. nuff said... ember needs a buff... i don't know how but she needs one ...

[Azawarau]

Why bring an ember when I can bring a rhino who with one stomp will do more damage to an entire room than an ember and also the rhino can survive much longer... and if his ult don't kill em it makes em helpless.. nuff said... ember needs a buff... i don't know how but she needs one ...

Thats overexxagerating

 

I dont even need Corrupted mods on ember to beat rhinos damage