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So...the Jackal Now Breaks The Rules [Aka Pvp Now Effects Pve]


Gigaus
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So I jsut rand a mission with a friend to kill the jackal again, and, on a 12 level, he spawned at 55....Armor so high we couldn't even down his shields...I managed to get him down to half health with my Acrid before he wiped the party with rocket spam every second.....Confirm/Deny: Bosses now scale with your conclave rating? Someone in our clan said that this was the case and....Yeah

 

If it's true, this pretty much breaks the game in so many possible ways. And if it doesn't WHY THE HELL IS A LEVEL 10 WORLD BOSS LEVEL 55 ON SPAWN?!

 

Hugs and kisses, Giga

Edited by Tulzscha
edited for less toxin
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The conclave rating is just a tool for ranking your equipment, even though conclaves use it the rating technically has nothing to do with pvp. Also bosses scaling to your equipment is to give all players a good challenge.

 

Right, like making it so that high level players have the same effectiveness as players who started out....Since we all remembered how much we loved spending an entire magazine just to take a single enemy down to half health. Of course we'd want to go back to that. oh, and big surprise as well, this just means people are going to game the system and find an optimal way of lowering the bosses' level, while still having enough power to faceroll them.
 
This is expressly what you are not supposed to do in a game with a tiered system, or even really in a leveling system. You aren't supposed to scale the enemies up so that they are always above the player-- Hell, look at Elder Scrolls Oblivion, and how in the later part of the game if you ever stepped out of town you basically faced boss monsters at the gate....At that point, what is the point of leveling, improving your gear, and buffing up your numbers-- and warframe is nothing but a numbers game, don't kid yourself about there being skill or challenge, outside of people purposefully gimping themselves-- if all those numbers are going to work against you?....Especially in Warframe, where the last 4 major patches were centered around the notion of getting away from this kind of gameplay. What, stopping players from getting to or being able to survive to high-level, uber broken enemies that took 1 point of damage from fully modded weapons was for S#&$s and giggles?....So, it's not okay for this to happen when the players want it to happen, but it's perfectly fine when they don't on a boss monster that they don't want to bother with anyway?...Wow, nice double standard there. 
 
And, on that first note, no...Conclave rating was designed solely with Conclave in mind. The entire reason there's a Conclave rating is because Conclave-- AKA PvP-- exists. It's like saying ELO ratings in chess just happen to be related to chess as a general measure of skill...And not a ranking system for chess...It's an arbitrary number that was placed on gear to restrict access to specific Conclave nodes, and prevent pubstomping, which happens anyway BECAUSE WARFRAMES IS A PVE CENTRIC GAME . End of story; it's a PvP statistic, and now it's dictating PvE mobs. Great, exactly what the majority of your player base doesn't want DE...
Edited by Gigaus
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-snip-

This is how many open world games handle leveling systems, especially when you have to go back to certain areas in the game. However, it is usually a better system than basing it off of conclave score as it is now.

 

Conclave score≠PvP. Conclave score is their attempt at a scaling system away from the one they had already. Slight improvement, could use a lot of work and limitations. Just because something is named to support one thing doesn't mean it can't apply to other things. Things like real wartime strategies being used in a game like Chess(just to reuse your chess example).

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This is how many open world games handle leveling systems, especially when you have to go back to certain areas in the game. However, it is usually a better system than basing it off of conclave score as it is now.

 

Conclave score≠PvP. Conclave score is their attempt at a scaling system away from the one they had already. Slight improvement, could use a lot of work and limitations. Just because something is named to support one thing doesn't mean it can't apply to other things. Things like real wartime strategies being used in a game like Chess(just to reuse your chess example).

 

One, if Conclave, named after the Conclave-PvP mode, is ≠ to PvP, and is an attempt at introducing a new type of scaling....Why is it we're only now seeing it a year after it was first introduced? we've had multiple updates since then, and not a mention until now-- if there even is mention in the patch notes-- that Conclave is an attempt at secondary scaling.
 
And Two...This is not an open world game. This is not an MMO-- This isn't even an RPG as some incorrectly label it. This is a Dungeon Crawler; Think Diablo, Torchlight, Path of Exile. Yes, the enemies get harder, and can get harder in areas you've already been; It's called Nightmare Mode in this game. They however don't get more powerful based on the gear you're using for three very critical reasons. A, it makes your gear useless unless they have special abilities. 90% of the weapons in warframe don't have any kind of special ability. Why are they useless? Because even if they get better, the mobs are always going to be stronger, have more defense, more health, and more damage. B, your gear most of the time is based on pure and utter luck. Warframe, you can craft and buy such things, sure...But modifying them up, beyond the prologue 'broken' mods, improving your weapons/frame is rolling dice and hoping to get a 1. If the enemies are scaling off your luck now, then...Yeah, good luck.
 
And C....Wait for it...It means that players and control the enemy spawn levels at will...Yes, some games do this, and do this well; Dark Souls, Bastion/Transistor to name a couple....But warframe isn't designed around this notion; It's designed around progressively difficult enemies via the virtue of scaling levels, and scaling stats based on those levels. Introducing a mechanic that let players decide what level of enemy they're going to engage outside of the normal system will lead to an overall breakdown....It completely defeats the point of the new system....add into that it more screws over new players than it does older ones, which at this point DE might as well declare war on anyone trying to get into their game. Everything that's implemented is only, only, for 'end tier', once you're geared out to high hell....Starting the game from scratch, even with the free mods is a huge slog of near unkillable enemies, tedious grinding, and needless waiting. Because you now have to beat the boss of a system, as where in the old node system you could avoid the boss and still progress, new players could very possibly get map-locked in a system because the boss is too hard. not even a 'get better scrub' kind of hard, I'm talking 'this boss would normally have 10k HP and 100 damage, but now has 200k effective hp, and 500 damage'. Why?...Because normally you can't beat bosses on your own starting out, your gear doesn't allow it-- and you can't get new gear without paying money-- and now if you call in friends or go in a 4 man party, the boss suddenly becomes even harder, just because. 
 
So...what's the excuse here?....Why are we using this system when the majority of games that use it fail expressly because of it. Again, Oblivion, the combat was the worst due to the bad attack system, and the horrendous leveling system. 
Edited by Gigaus
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-snip-

First off, for god sakes man, edit your post. I have to highlight it to read it.

 

We've already had it scale bosses, just not as massively. It has been used as a secondary scaling system since it has been scaling bosses(I'm honestly not sure how long ago that was). 

And yes, your worry is one of the many worries many people have over the recent change. If it proves to be an issue, it'll be changed. You honestly have no way of buying your way out of an impossible boss battle, it simply costs too much to do.

 

This is where I encourage you to go try and fight Vor with a reasonable new player starting equipment. Test it out, see what happens. If you have issues defeating him beyond the norm, create a topic on it. Talk about it constructively, suggest improvements if needed.

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First off, for god sakes man, edit your post. I have to highlight it to read it.

 

We've already had it scale bosses, just not as massively. It has been used as a secondary scaling system since it has been scaling bosses(I'm honestly not sure how long ago that was). 

And yes, your worry is one of the many worries many people have over the recent change. If it proves to be an issue, it'll be changed. You honestly have no way of buying your way out of an impossible boss battle, it simply costs too much to do.

 

This is where I encourage you to go try and fight Vor with a reasonable new player starting equipment. Test it out, see what happens. If you have issues defeating him beyond the norm, create a topic on it. Talk about it constructively, suggest improvements if needed.

 

I keep editing it to try to fix...What ever that is-- It's only happening in this thread, and it won't go away! Still trying to see if I can fix it. 

 

Regardless....No, we didn't have conclave scaling bosses. If we did, it was some time back and was removed-- I know this for fact because I've been running bosses over and over with my friends who just got in, and need better frames. It didn't matter what I or they brought, the bosses levels were always the same. And even if it somehow was tied to boss level, honestly it shouldn't be for reasons already explained. Especially since all bosses have armor, and with Ignore Armor gone armor is pretty much king in the game atm. It makes enemies go from 500 to 10k Hp in only ten levels. 

 

And honestly, that is the issue. My worry is that things will be changed-- for the worse. DE, love some of you guys, but damn can you make some really poor choices. The worry isn't that the system is broken; The worry is that because it's broken, everything else could be changed to fit the broken part. Kinda the notion of 'if there's a stain in the rug, color the rug that color to hide it'. It's a toss up, where the system could be fixed or removed....Or it could lead to yet more working parts being broken to fit the issue.

 

If I can't beat Vor with the starting equipment, for any reason, then again, DE might as well declare war on new players. Vor is a Patsy, he's meant to be defeated with little struggle; Its once you get to the other bosses, like the Jackal, that the issue crops up. Again, it's now possible for new players to get map-locked because area progression hinges on beating a boss, whereas before it didn't. If players can't continue to progress, the whole game breaks down and becomes a deadlock...Until someone basically gets lucky. If you can't beat the boss solo, and calling in help makes it hard, then there's a big problem, a lot of big problems. 

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The conclave rating is just a tool for ranking your equipment, even though conclaves use it the rating technically has nothing to do with pvp. Also bosses scaling to your equipment is to give all players a good challenge.

but why is it necessary to give all players a challenge at all times? yes it should be challenging for players running through it the first time, but for a veteran coming back to do it after unlocking everything....why does it need to be a challenge?

also scaling in this way will punish noob pugs unlucky enough to be joined by veterans. In that case they don't have a chance at doing meaningful damage or even protecting themselves. 

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It's the difference between newbies not getting a shot in because the vet can one shot the boss with his crit dread build or newbies having a tough battle that they overcome with the vets help. Neither is ideal but the second one at least allows for some gameplay.

 

....Except that in the second, even the vets can't do damage to the boss...Please read the thread and the problems stated above; The problem with bosses specifically scaling like this is all of them have armor, and increment values that were not designed for this. Jackal, after level 50, takes about 1 point of damage from anything, meaning you either bring toxic weapons-- something a newbie won't have-- or you just don't play him....You can't 'stun' him by shooting his legs at that point-- There's not enough bullets in the world. 

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It's the difference between newbies not getting a shot in because the vet can one shot the boss with his crit dread build or newbies having a tough battle that they overcome with the vets help. Neither is ideal but the second one at least allows for some gameplay.

just sounds like a situation like: out of the frying pan into the fire

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Just asking this to make sure nothing is overlooked.

 

Was it nightmare mode?

 

Nope, hell no XD

 

The whole reason we even were fighting him was for the Kubrow quest, and to unlock the next areas for a friend that recently joined. He's now wary about coming back because of the extremities of the game.....Pretty much like all my friends whenever DE updates anything. 

 

It was on normal, with three people, and we had a high conclave rating.....We all essentially stripped ourselves down to one weapon and went in naked; He still spawned at level 26, and soaked bullets like a mofo. We beat him, but only by the virtue of me bringing an Acrid and using pretty much all my bullets.

 

On that note, if this is what Jackal is like, then it's likely no other boss is really beatable outside of melee or bringing team ammo restores. Jackal at least drops ammo and orbs around the arena to keep you going; no other boss does. 

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Just tried to solo Jackal on my new character. Loki, Braton, Lato, Skana. He was L 23(!!!!!!!!!). At last stage he outright stopped taking damage to either leg and just spammed rockets. Blew through revives and he still owned me right up my &#!. DE #*($%%@ up so many things in this update, expecialy for newbies, it's unbelievable.

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Just tried to solo Jackal on my new character. Loki, Braton, Lato, Skana. He was L 23(!!!!!!!!!). At last stage he outright stopped taking damage to either leg and just spammed rockets. Blew through revives and he still owned me right up my @$$. DE #*($%%@ up so many things in this update, expecialy for newbies, it's unbelievable.

Jackal too OP, confirmed.

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Jackal too OP, confirmed.

 

Too OP for new players, yeah.....This is the entire problem in a nutshell; If your gatekeeping boss can't be beaten by new players the whole game breaks down and grinds to a halt. This was the whole reason you didn't have to kill the bosses of each planet to get to the next. Now that it's hinged on beating a boss that will always be high level than you and your weapons, Warframe's going to hemorrhage even more new players. 

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Just tried to solo Jackal on my new character. Loki, Braton, Lato, Skana. He was L 23(!!!!!!!!!). At last stage he outright stopped taking damage to either leg and just spammed rockets. Blew through revives and he still owned me right up my @$$. DE #*($%%@ up so many things in this update, expecialy for newbies, it's unbelievable.

 

I created an alternate account for the reason to go through U14 from a fresh start. I had no problem soloing Jackel with only my Braton with broken Serration and Stormbringer. It was even easier with Grakata, broken Serration, and Stormbringer as I stun locked him the whole time. I would say it took about three and half mags to take him down with my Grakata. I'll have to try it again but I didn't have any real problems. Could it be that scaling is now not only based on conclave but maybe mastery rank as well (I was only at rank 1 and 2 at the time I faced him)? The U14 notes state they improved scaling but they didn't say how. It just stated "improved their scaling for groups of high level Tenno".

 

From U14 Notes:

 

Boss Balancing Changes:

  • The following bosses have gone through a balancing pass to improve their scaling for groups of high level Tenno, we hope they are a little more challenging!
  • Grustrag 3, Hyena Pack, Vay Hek, Jackal, Alad V and Zanuka, Sargas Ruk, Lephantis, and Captain Vor.
  • Speaking to the Jackal, The Jackal had some additional fixes to reduce the amount of stun locking possible and also allowing him to scale better with level. The health of his legs was changed to a % of his total health, which scales up with level, making it harder to knock him into his stun state. His stun timer was also decreased while the damage required to break him out of stun early was also increased and made as a % of his total health rather than a set value.
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I went to Jackal again with a Level 30 Volt, Level 22 Karak, Level 11 Akzani, and Level 9 Orthos and he spawned as level 17.

 

Volt and Karak Load-out (Forgot to screenshot the Akzani and Orthos but they only had one low level Heated Charge and Pressure Point equipped):

 

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He scaled up 5 - 6 levels with these load-outs:

 

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I have to say it wasn't difficult to beat him but should scaling already start with these load-outs? I remember facing Alad V solo and being able to beat him at his base level but when I changed matchmaking to public two other Tenno joined in and Alad V spawned at level 45 which wasn't fun at all.

 

I wonder if the best solution is to allow the player to choose to have the bosses scale to the player's level. That way people who want a challenge can have them scale while others only looking to farm quick resources, BP's, or to trigger events can face the bosses at their base level. There should also be an option to have a player choose to only join others or have others join them that are only within a range of their conclave rating to avoid unbeatable boss fights.

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Just out of curiosity.....if Conclave isn't simply another name for a player's PvP score.....what else can it possibly measure?  It's a measurement tool used solely (as far as we know) for PvP matches, so....?

 

In theory, anything. It could measure weapons to skill level based on stats...conversely, it could effect anything from enemy levels to loot drops. It's a matter of how it's used. And since DE is notorious for keeping players out of the loop on so many critical things-- Like how systems work and bosses function-- as well ast he fact that they hijacked the Wiki and refuse to update it, it's unlikely we'll really know the extent of it. 

 

@ Creepindeath: Remember that it's based on Conclave rating, and not much else. Last I checked, so don't quote me on it, the level of a weapon doesn't factor into Conclave, as nothing happens combat stat wise when you level them; You get more mod points and that's it. Warframes gain a minor amount of Conclave as they level, as they get player stats [HP, Shields, Power, ect.]. Modding out either will raise your Conclave. 

 

As I mentioned before, this opens it up to a lot more gaming than we saw before. It means players can build very specific builds to level rape bosses, but only IF they have the means to pull off that build; New players aren't going to be able to. Additionally, if they mod out their weapons to the fullest, they're going to increase their Conclave despite having weaker offensive stats. Take a look at your build-- also thank you for pictures in tab.

 

On your weapon, you have 6 slots unused. Your conclave is fairly low because of that. I'd like you to go back and fill every slot, even if it's with mods that don't directly increase damage, crit/status chance, or even RoF. Suddenly you Conclave jumps, especially if you level them up. You're a High Tier player on a smerf account; You know what you're doing, for one, and for two know how to get the best result with the least expenditure....New players won't. New players are going to fill every mod slot they can thinking it's going to give them at least a small edge. Further more, few are going to solo like the guy above or like us; They're going to be in groups, and as a result, the Boss will jump in levels just because there's more guys there.

----

 

My two cents would be to let players choose to have the boss scale or not, Nightmare Style. When a node has the nightmare tag, you can choose between normal mode, and nightmare mode. Do the same for bosses. Normal mode, or Scaling mode. It'd let people have a challenge, but not force it on low level players. Problem solved. 

Edited by Gigaus
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Bosses have always scaled with conclave rating, or at least since October 2013 when I started playing.

 

If they ever did, it was never noticeable. Let alone an actual problem. If it always scaled, why are we hearing about it now in notes? 

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