Argon Crystals, Kubrows. A Trend We're Seeing?

[eksby]

I don't believe this mechanic of degrading crystals/health/loyalty is fun. When I first played Warframe, I didn't sign up to play a game that forces me to log in every day and pay 100k (per two weeks, which might not seem like a lot to some people, but is still quite a bit for those still trying to rank up mods or make new weapons) or risk losing my kubrow (either that or put him in stasis, which is simply a band-aid fix to the problem). I didn't sign up for a game that slowly depletes my resources, rendering my time and effort to get said resources moot. 

 

Why are we not allowed to stock up on argon crystals, like all the other materials in the game? Why are our kubrows so much more delicate than their counterparts, the sentinels? Why is there even an apparent need to make us waste 100k credits on our kubrows constantly, when there really is no credit inflation since we can't even trade credits for mods in the player market? 

 

All this does is punish us as players—no matter if we play daily or we log in once a month. I daresay that no one enjoys farming credits just to keep their kubrow alive for one more day, and no one enjoys having to hit the void just to make that new weapon or warframe after finding out that their argon stock has completely degraded. 

 

DE, I'm assuming you put these time-degrading things in the game so that we would play more. I'm sorry to say, but all it has done is made me want to play less. I don't want to go to the void, get 12 argon crystals, and watch them slowly decay day by day, with nothing I can do to stop my hard work from disappearing. I put time into the game because I like to play it—but I do NOT appreciate having the time I spend on this game spit on, which is what happens when you take away resources I have earned, mind you, for no reason other than some sort of "this material has a half-life so that we can force you to play more to get it when you need it!" answer. 

 

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as angry, but I am very disappointed specifically with the direction the game is heading with the decaying materials/health/loyalty. 

 

Degrading anything is ridiculous game design, it is in no way fun to players, and in fact makes us feel forced to play a game that we should instead be wanting to play of our own accord. 

 

---

 

So, I propose that:

1. The time-decaying aspect of argon crystals is removed

2. Kubrows do not die, like sentinels, and the health boost credit cost is reduced significantly. Loyalty does not decrease over time, only decreases when your kubrow dies in combat. 

 

At the moment, the credit cost is much too high for anyone but veteran players, and all it will do is frustrate newer players who want a kubrow. And it's strange for your kubrow to start every new day with less loyalty when you haven't even done anything bad to it. 

 

Please DE, we all want to continue to enjoy playing Warframe, but these decaying mechanics are not fun at all and just taint the Warframe experience. 

 

tl;dr - Remove decaying aspect of argon crystals (making them into a normal resource), and significantly decrease credit cost of kubrow maintenance, do not allow kubrows to die (making them more similar to sentinels), and let them keep their loyalty unless you do something specifically bad against them (such as letting them die in a mission). 

 

Edit: 

About argon giving replay value...

Degrading resources increases Replay value.

Degrading resources to increase replay is a cheaper alternative than to address game design flaws.

Degrading resources allows you to bypass the need for more content by making existing content harder to obtain.

To be fair, yes it's hard to create content that will keep everyone interested. But I don't believe degrading resources is a good way about it. What if it was instead something we can work toward, for example the event leaderboards are always fun to do to get to the top. Maybe a weekly prize for being top 3 of something or other? 

Edited July 24, 2014 by kuliise

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

I'm not sure I'll ever spend the 150 or so argon crystals I've lost through decay. But why not? :P

[OptimumBow0]

I agree on the Kubrow.

 

But anything that requires 2 Argon isn't that outrageous in my opinion.

[WingedCrusade]

Hopefully DE will see this because this is my sentiments exactly.

[KairaSilvermist]

Personally, considering that an Argon Crystal seems, to me at least, to be similar to "Dry Ice" and Sublimate over a period of time, I don't mind them Decaying :T It's not ahrd to grab a couple, just don't speedrun through the level, and hit every locker, it's simple. I think that people have asked for Loyalty to go down every day, and HP to only drop if they drop in combat, that seems to be something popular being called for.

[Steelfeathers]

Like this hasn't already been said in many different threads, but I do agree with the credit cost. Although I don't like to consider myself a "veteran" player, I did play this game as soon as it hit open beta and I WAS rocking 6 mil credits, until I blew all that away transmuting. "Oh, you slapped on 4 rare mods? Here, have Vitality you f**ker!"

[Gildemesh]

I don't mind a credit sink for Kubrows. Keeping their DNA up at the cost of credits is reasonable. But I always feel like I'm on a timer. The clock is always ticking. This is how they get you to keep playing the game.

 

Help me.

[SgtFlex]

I disagree on removing the time degredation of argon crystals. Veteran players know right off the bat that when new weapons come up, they can just build them right away. Weapons that use argon crystals dont follow that rule. Veteran players must go out to the void and seek out the resources needed to build the new weapons. It's a way to keep us working for what we want. Removing that just seems to take the challenge out of some building. I like seeking resources, and as someone who plays hours and hours on end, you have almost an infinite abundance of resources, EXCEPT for argon crystals.

 

As for kubrows, I think the health degredation should stay in place to keep it realistic and to make us feel that we should take care of them. Although, the DNA blueprints for health should be reduced drastically. After taking care of several kubrows, it gets hefty on your credits. Im lucky I got permadeath kubrow and got 6 for free because im flat @$$ broke right now. Kubrows still got some work on their combat and AI pathing, but they're not in a bad place, they fill a different role than sentinels do.

 

 

In a way though, that expensive amount of credits DOES keep me playing additional missions to get more credits. I like having a goal instead of just playing random missions here and there. Now my objective is to seek out credits.

Edited July 24, 2014 by SgtFlex

[JohnProdman]

DE, I'm assuming you put these time-degrading things in the game so that we would play more. I'm sorry to say, but all it has done is made me want to play less. 

Then play less.

[GunBladeSlash]

i agree they try to make this game new player friendly but kubrows appear to be for experienced grinders only costing agron for the incubator core and 100k creds to heal up your kubrow.

[LegacyOfLamb]

Then play less.

The man has valid points, why don't you contribute to the discussion, instead of comming off as a smartass?

[Etsoree]

Why are we not allowed to stock up on argon crystals, like all the other materials in the game? Why are our kubrows so much more delicate than their counterparts, the sentinels? Why is there even an apparent need to make us waste 100k credits on our kubrows constantly, when there really is no credit inflation since we can't even trade credits for mods in the player market? 

 

This post actually reminded me to switch my Kubrows out.

 

Anyway.

 

It fits into lore. Kubrows as of right now are cloned from genetic material from BAD clones of them, so ours degrade, ableit a lot slower. They are far, far more powerful than the wild ones and far, far more powerful than a Sentinel. They are living, breathing, organic-like things in the game, so we must take care of them, or they die.

 

The Djinn Sentinel cannot be argued into it since it could just be considered a giant tumor.

[eksby]

Personally, considering that an Argon Crystal seems, to me at least, to be similar to "Dry Ice" and Sublimate over a period of time, I don't mind them Decaying :T It's not ahrd to grab a couple, just don't speedrun through the level, and hit every locker, it's simple. I think that people have asked for Loyalty to go down every day, and HP to only drop if they drop in combat, that seems to be something popular being called for.

It's not hard, yes. But for those of us who do not have that much time to play, it ends up eating into that time and becomes a bit frustrating. 

 

I disagree on removing the time degredation of argon crystals. Veteran players know right off the bat that when new weapons come up, they can just build them right away. Weapons that use argon crystals dont follow that rule. Veteran players must go out to the void and seek out the resources needed to build the new weapons. It's a way to keep us working for what we want. Removing that just seems to take the challenge out of some building. I like seeking resources, and as someone who plays hours and hours on end, you have almost an infinite abundance of resources, EXCEPT for argon crystals.

 

As for kubrows, I think the health degredation should stay in place to keep it realistic and to make us feel that we should take care of them. Although, the DNA blueprints for health should be reduced drastically. After taking care of several kubrows, it gets hefty on your credits. Im lucky I got permadeath kubrow and got 6 for free because im flat @$$ broke right now. Kubrows still got some work on their combat and AI pathing, but they're not in a bad place, they fill a different role than sentinels do.

 

 

In a way though, that expensive amount of credits DOES keep me playing additional missions to get more credits. I like having a goal instead of just playing random missions here and there. Now my objective is to seek out credits.

Personally, I would rather keep all my resources than be forced to go seek them when I know I had enough argon crystals say, a few days ago. 

 

I suppose the problem is on one hand, the decaying resources/credit sink helps out those players who have already gotten everything, while for those who are still getting everything, it becomes a hindrance. 

 

 

This post actually reminded me to switch my Kubrows out.

 

Anyway.

 

It fits into lore. Kubrows as of right now are cloned from genetic material from BAD clones of them, so ours degrade, ableit a lot slower. They are far, far more powerful than the wild ones and far, far more powerful than a Sentinel. They are living, breathing, organic-like things in the game, so we must take care of them, or they die.

 

The Djinn Sentinel cannot be argued into it since it could just be considered a giant tumor.

 

I'm not asking for kubrows to not degrade at all, I'm asking that the credit cost be lowered, and that they won't die if they hit 0%, although since they can be put into stasis the dying-if-they-hit-0% I don't mind too much, honestly.

Edited July 24, 2014 by kuliise

[taiiat]

- Argon Crystals

- Kubrow Health

- Kubrow Loyalty

alright, let's clear this up one by one.

 

- Argon Crystals are available outside of the Void now. so in the random Missions you're playing from time to time, you should always have few handy.

so Argon Crystals are more available now, since they're being used by non-one-time blueprints.

 

- Kubrow Health basically 'forces' you to login once a week. not daily. their Health degrades by ~20% per 24hr.

once a week is not the end of the world, and if you won't be around for a week, put it in Stasis.

i'd say in about a week of playing some number of hours daily, a newish player would still be able to acquire 100,000Cr in a week. 

 

- Kubrow Loyalty... i'll agree there, i don't really feel the animal should get less loyal just because he hasn't had his fill of bloodlust recently.

only when it dies sounds reasonable to me.

 

 

"Oh, you slapped on 4 rare mods? Here, have Vitality you f**ker!"

hey, we used to be guaranteed a Rare Mod from 4 Rare Mods (that weren't identical). but, people whined that they didn't want Warframe Abilities.

 

and look now! now we get Common and Uncommon Mods instead of Rare Warframe Abilities. the holes in the 'drop rates' were filled in with things other than Rare Mods.

*slowclap*

 

i'd love if people would take a step back and think about what they're asking for, and what the likely outcome is before they ask for it.

Edited July 24, 2014 by taiiat

[KriLL3]

DE has been making decisions lately I don't agree with and I can't really see their motivation for making them, I wish WF had a more fair F2P model where you only pay for cosmetics, not convenience, though I'm honestly not sure how that'd affect their bottom line, if WF was more fair the playerbase should increase and thus more players would voluntarily buy cosmetics, but I'm not sure how much money they'd make on that vs the current "pay us money or grind for x hours, or wait x hours before you get your weapon" etc.

 

Kubrow health and loyalty and the customization slot machine are good examples of really weird decisions though, I wouldn't mind health as much if there was some way to make your own DNA stabilizers instead of paying for them, and frankly it would make sense if the incubator could slowly raise their HP on it's own, ie if you don't want to or can't pay for the DNA stabilizers just let them rest in the ship for x hours/days. Loyalty wouldn't be as big of an issue if it wasn't limited to 3 times per day and kept going down on it's own, that smells like a retention tactic, making you log in to the game to care for your kubrow.

Edited July 24, 2014 by KriLL3

[PachTrick]

Argon crystals are fine, man Argon is a noble gas and I think it's not supposed to form crystals.

 

The Kubrow DNA thing is too much though, I don't have that many 100K for me to spend on.

1 pack 6 shots, 1 shot 40%, so it's 100k for 12 days.

For a month, you'll need an extra 300k.

You might say spending 300k is normal if you fuse mods and craft stuff, yes it's not much but now we'll need 600k for a month if we have a kubrow, that's @(*()$ insane.

[AtomicWaffles]

DNA Stabilizer costs 100k for ~six days of use. I really do not see a problem with that. Credits are very easy to come by with the introduction of the Dark Sectors.

 

Need to keep up you Kubrow for a week? Play one game of Sechura per day for five days straight, and there are your credits. And I know that the majority of folks play more than one round of Dark Sector Defense per day.

 

...Just my two cents.

 

Edit: Also stasis. Use it.

Edited July 24, 2014 by AtomicWaffles

[DarkDestiny]

I read the thread and I may of missed this but I really feel it needs to be pointed out that its not 100k credits a day, its about 100k credits every 2 weeks.

 

Your Kubrow loses 20% of its health integrity bar every day, 1 DNA stabilizer gives at least 40% Health (Maybe more? Not sure.), DNA Stabilizers costs 100k credits for 6. That is 100k credits every 12 days at least, it could possibly be even more if they stabilizers give more then 40% health which I am unsure of.

 

This is EXTREMELY easy to achieve. There is literally no reason to not be able to meet this requirement unless you simply only play once every other week or so, and if that's the case you wouldn't be able to keep your poor Kubrow alive anyways.

 

As for loyalty, the loyalty system needs to be completely revamped or considerably tweaked. Losing 40% loyalty on your poor Kubrow dying is extremely taxing on the player considering they can only revive 60% loyalty a day. It is very punishing to anyone who doesn't have a maxed out Kubrow. Unfortunately, not only are Kubrow mods a pain to farm but health/shield/armor link ones require the same amount as a redirection mod to max EACH. So for the first several weeks of having a Kubrow, you have to baby the heck out of that thing and not take it to any fun missions at all because if it dies you are screwed for the day.

 

My solution to that is to simply increase the amount of loyalty returned from interactions to 40% or to completely change the system as its very taxing on any player, new or veteran.

[UmbraVenator]

Argon degradation makes sense. Ridding the timer completely takes their point away. Why do you wish to stock up on a resource? Just farm it when you need it. Really it's not like anything requires 10+ argon crystals. I agree with what SgtFlex said; being able to immediately build things takes part of the achievement feeling from completing it.

 

Kubrows can be done better, but really they JUST released them. The numbers they used probably have skewed reasoning, we are basically their guinea pigs on what "feels" right. Is owning a pet really cheap? No, and I feel it makes you either care MORE about the kubrow or make you feel like you don't want to handle it. That's FINE. You don't need a kubrow, you want one (minus the costs).

 

All this being said I do feel they went a bit overboard with the health degredation and loyalty. The swap seems like a much more reasonable idea. As for kubrow selling I'm personally conflicted.

[Zagrax]

I don't mind needing to keep them up, I do disagree with the steep maintenance costs however (100k for a 6 pack..).

[eksby]

DNA Stabilizer costs 100k for six days of use. I really do not see a problem with that. Credits are very easy to come by with the introduction of the Dark Sectors.

 

Need to keep up you Kubrow for a week? Play one game of Sechura per day for five days straight, and there are your credits. And I know that the majority of folks play more than one round of Dark Sector Defense per day.

 

...Just my two cents.

 

Edit: Also stasis. Use it.

You might not see a problem, but for quite a few players, 100k is too much. Even for a week. 

[Demon-King-Lamb]

Well the Argon Crystals are pretty cool and are fine the way they are. But the only thing keeping me from obtaining a Kubrow is the Health/Loyalty degeneration. I don't have the luxury of logging on every hour to upkeep a Kubrow. Perhaps if we get a mechanized Kubrow and won't have to worry about the Health and Loyalty thing.

[Riate]

I disagree on the Argon Crystal resources, it forces veterans to get into the void for a bit of farming instead of just buying the bp on a new weapon and hitting the build button. 

 

As for the Kubrows though, I was hoping to get a perfect kubrow of each type but the hefty prices on power cores and dna stabilizers kinda stings, same thing with the time-sink that comes with wanting to switch kubrows. Can't go stealth mode into a mission then switch to a Sunika for Capture on the flip of a dime like I was hoping to.

[CandyDragon]

Degrading resources increases Replay value.

Degrading resources to increase replay is a cheaper alternative than to address game design flaws.

Degrading resources allows you to bypass the need for more content by making existing content harder to obtain.

Maximum Game dev logic.

[fatpig84]

I got like 9 argon crystals expiring in 6 hours or so.

With nothing to spend them on.

 

U want em ?

Too bad can't trade em.