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Argon Crystals, Kubrows. A Trend We're Seeing?


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Example =/= definition.  Without a proper definition people are just going to keep dumping topics in GD.

 

And it is to hide it, whether by design or accident.  Just compare the two sections:

0Mmvftg.jpg

 

Because of the needlessly fragmented setup of the sub-forums of other sections, they are much less read and used. It is why people just congregate in GD and why people just dump their threads there as well.  By moving a thread critical of the game to one of these sections, they essentially kill off any real chance of exposure it might have otherwise gotten.

This is pretty much true. Hardly anyone goes to the subforums...

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Its a stupid idea, along a couple of other stupid ideas they have had.

 

Its designed to push you towards the shop, to spend plat on credits as a new player.

 

The moral design choice would be that the Kubrow heals inside the incubator (just like your extractors do) over time, OR you can heal them with a crafted med pack or dog food back, or dna pack, that is constructed from the billions of worthless resources you have.

 

Like I've said, Ive built one, I shall just let it die and not bother with the option of having one again until the mechanic is changed.

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I don't mind a credit sink for Kubrows. Keeping their DNA up at the cost of credits is reasonable. But I always feel like I'm on a timer. The clock is always ticking. This is how they get you to keep playing the game.

 

Help me.

Then don't play. I'm serious here. I haven't touched WF for a month because of all the crap that's been happening. Find something better and less grindy.

 

I disagree on removing the time degredation of argon crystals. Veteran players know right off the bat that when new weapons come up, they can just build them right away. Weapons that use argon crystals dont follow that rule. Veteran players must go out to the void and seek out the resources needed to build the new weapons. It's a way to keep us working for what we want. Removing that just seems to take the challenge out of some building. I like seeking resources, and as someone who plays hours and hours on end, you have almost an infinite abundance of resources, EXCEPT for argon crystals.

Whereas I, on the other hand, do not enjoy having my stuff evaporate into thin air.

 

Self-depleting resource... pet maintenance.... I wonder if equipment maintenance is around the corner

I abandoned Firefall the moment I discovered that you need to grind in order to stay still (gear maintenance). Mechanics like that aren't something which makes a playerbase happy.

 

Well, DE also doesn't like the idea of veteran players slacking off and having those "Oh, it's one of those Tenno Reinforcement days where I can fiddle my thumbs, cook from my foundry without playing an actual game, then proceed to log off."

If that's the only reason people have to log in to the game, then said game is already dead.

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I personally think that it's overall bearable. It's endgame material, endgame content that they gave us with nothing else to do. Personally I have one of the four at 30, two matured and my third maturing now. They hit 30 kinda fast, too, and they're EXTREMELY easy to keep alive in missions once you know how to do it.

I might be a bit more understanding of labeling the Kubrow as "endgame content" if the quest to obtain one wasn't unlocked through Jackal, the second boss of the game and if it wasn't available to MR1's. However, I think an MR6 or MR7 should be able to support one if an MR2 or MR3 can get a sentinel.

 

As for carrying the burden - Getting and maintaining a Kubrow would definitely be bearable if the capability of a player's Kubrow was not gimped every 24 hours for little discernible reason and at such a high cost. That's not fun.

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I'm sure I could afford to pay another 2-3 dollars a gallon for gas to drive to work. But I'd rather not.

You think that's a bad analogy then explain to me why Kubrows are endgame why are they on earth and why are they so easily accessible outside of obvious grind-walls.

Edited by DirkDeadeye
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no hotfix has mentioned Argon Crystals being removed from the Missions outside of the Void we were getting them from. they aren't a Common Resource so datamining with fair certainty that they may or may not be available outside the Void anymore (excluding Vay Hek ofcourse), is time consuming.

 

but no Hotfix has mentioned it, so i have no reason to believe it's changed.

 

Read the patch notes for 14.0.8: 

 

"Fixed an issue with the wrong resource drops appearing on Mercury."

 

So I ask again, where else are they dropping? 

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"Fixed an issue with the wrong resource drops appearing on Mercury."

 

So I ask again, where else are they dropping? 

hm. that could potentially be about Argon.

i could've sworn i recieved them on Planets other than Mercury, however. but i can't remember clearly.

 

 

anyways, if this has infact been altered, ehh. this means the Kubro Quest is definitely for players at atleast Midgame, preferably a little further.

why do we give such a Quest to new players? Jackal is one of the earlier encounters they'll have, so they get a Quest they can't complete for what could be another hundred hours of gameplay?

 

heh.

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hm. that could potentially be about Argon.

i could've sworn i recieved them on Planets other than Mercury, however. but i can't remember clearly.

 

It was definitely about Argon. The new tiles on Mercury were dropping Void resources rather than Mercury ones, which includes Argon. 

 

Now, Phorid has for some reason been dropping Argon. I don't know if that has been changed/fixed yet. But yeah, the kubrow quest is weirdly placed if it's not meant for new players. 

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Some people aren't gonna agree on the idea of getting rid of the Argon Crystal timer because of the fact that we can always instantly build anything we want.(Well sometimes, freaking neurodes, neural sensors, and orokin cells.).

 

I think the mistake DE made was having resources drop like freaking candy from enemies and more. They allowed you to have that ability to always have the resources you need..sometimes..anyway this created an easy press button for a new weapon and wait to do something else. So, they tried to fix that by adding weapons that required a resource that added a timer on so that they can prevent people from always having the resources needed for the weapons or frames they wanna craft. It worked, right?...right?

 

Nope, because RNG stepped in and only the lucky was able to get them to drop in tons or in the right amount while others suffered because they have always been drawing crap from the cards of RNG...like what we experience with in the void.(SHHHH that player that will say I have always gotten Argon Crystals very easily I don't know why people complain, NOT EVERYONE CAN FIND THE POT OF GOLD AT THE END OF THE RAINBOW).

 

Only way to fix this issue is to lower the how many resources drop right? Yes, problem we have is that we need to have DE go down the list and work around all blueprints so that they fit the new meta. Then, we need to make sure we don't have it based on RNG, so we have it fair, like certain missions giving us certain resources or enemies, have lockers and containers have more drops and a bunch of stuff. With this change, we will effectively have it where you have enough resources to supply you for maybe a build or two but sooner or later, you will need to get grind for resources but not for very long...like we have to do with some. Then we can finally justify Argon Crystal as a resource that shouldn't be on a timer because we already have enough grinding for resources, just allow it to be a regular drop. Dear...god...the amount of work to fix this would be insane, but hey, it ain't like they haven't had to do large things before right? This update and updates before have proven this to be quite true, but hey, what do I know?

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I don't believe this mechanic of degrading crystals/health/loyalty is fun. When I first played Warframe, I didn't sign up to play a game that forces me to log in every day and pay 100k (per two weeks, which might not seem like a lot to some people, but is still quite a bit for those still trying to rank up mods or make new weapons) or risk losing my kubrow (either that or put him in stasis, which is simply a band-aid fix to the problem). I didn't sign up for a game that slowly depletes my resources, rendering my time and effort to get said resources moot. 

 

Why are we not allowed to stock up on argon crystals, like all the other materials in the game? Why are our kubrows so much more delicate than their counterparts, the sentinels? Why is there even an apparent need to make us waste 100k credits on our kubrows constantly, when there really is no credit inflation since we can't even trade credits for mods in the player market? 

 

All this does is punish us as players—no matter if we play daily or we log in once a month. I daresay that no one enjoys farming credits just to keep their kubrow alive for one more day, and no one enjoys having to hit the void just to make that new weapon or warframe after finding out that their argon stock has completely degraded. 

 

DE, I'm assuming you put these time-degrading things in the game so that we would play more. I'm sorry to say, but all it has done is made me want to play less. I don't want to go to the void, get 12 argon crystals, and watch them slowly decay day by day, with nothing I can do to stop my hard work from disappearing. I put time into the game because I like to play it—but I do NOT appreciate having the time I spend on this game spit on, which is what happens when you take away resources I have earned, mind you, for no reason other than some sort of "this material has a half-life so that we can force you to play more to get it when you need it!" answer. 

 

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as angry, but I am very disappointed specifically with the direction the game is heading with the decaying materials/health/loyalty. 

 

Degrading anything is ridiculous game design, it is in no way fun to players, and in fact makes us feel forced to play a game that we should instead be wanting to play of our own accord

 

---

 

So, I propose that:

1. The time-decaying aspect of argon crystals is removed

2. Kubrows do not die, like sentinels, and the health boost credit cost is reduced significantly. Loyalty does not decrease over time, only decreases when your kubrow dies in combat. 

 

At the moment, the credit cost is much too high for anyone but veteran players, and all it will do is frustrate newer players who want a kubrow. And it's strange for your kubrow to start every new day with less loyalty when you haven't even done anything bad to it. 

 

Please DE, we all want to continue to enjoy playing Warframe, but these decaying mechanics are not fun at all and just taint the Warframe experience. 

 

tl;dr - Remove decaying aspect of argon crystals (making them into a normal resource), and significantly decrease credit cost of kubrow maintenance, do not allow kubrows to die (making them more similar to sentinels), and let them keep their loyalty unless you do something specifically bad against them (such as letting them die in a mission). 

 

Edit: 

About argon giving replay value...

 

To be fair, yes it's hard to create content that will keep everyone interested. But I don't believe degrading resources is a good way about it. What if it was instead something we can work toward, for example the event leaderboards are always fun to do to get to the top. Maybe a weekly prize for being top 3 of something or other? 

As a rule, I don't like quoting posts in their entirety.  As a rule, I don't like responding to these sorts of threads.  And if I do, as a rule I don't bother giving detailed opinions that I know aren't going to end up on the first (and far most-read) page of commentary.

So, hey.  Here's a hat-trick for you.  And I can give you the summary up-front.

tl;dr: Economy isn't fun (for most people), but it's necessary, and this is a straightforward and practical way of running an economy.

The issue with Warframe and the vast majority of MOGs (multiplayer online games) is that the non-premium resources don't work anything like real-world money.  There is a pragmatically infinite amount of them and they comes from nowhere -- it's just made up on the spot to reward something the game wants you to do.  The game, unlike your employers (or whatever other source you have for real-world money), has no need to budget to ensure everyone gets paid.  It just prints more money.

This is obviously a huge problem.

 

Also unlike the real world, you mostly don't need to spend this money if you don't want to.  No matter how frugal I am IRL, I need to eat and drink, and I need shelter.  In order to make money to pay for food and shelter, I also have to have functional transportation, clothes, soap and water, and a host of other things.  Whether or not I want to pay for these things on any given day is immaterial.

On the other hand, I can login and play Warframe with a zero-credit, zero-resource balance indefinitely.  Not that that's practical, since any form of playing I can think of generates credits, as described above.

So that leaves the developers with two broad initial reactions: First, acknowledge resources are meaningless and ignore them or outright remove them.  We could talk about why they might not want to do this, but it goes beyond the scope of what I'm dealing with right now.  Second, keep resources meaningful somehow.

Okay, so how to combat this infinite flowing faucet of money into the game?  We're going to assume that you already have some use for them related to existing game systems and progression, otherwise you probably would have just gone with #1 above.  Well --

  • Inflation.  Periodically up the costs of everything.  This tends to hurt new players a lot because they don't start out having had this faucet running over them for as long.  Also, it devalues prior effort placed into the game by other players.  Third, it doesn't really add anything to the game.  And lastly and worst, it can require nearly the full time of an employee to keep it running smoothly.  So it works, but it's messy and constantly a chore.

     

  • Obsoletion.  Typically this means periodically introducing an entirely new resource that can only be gained in certain ways.  coughOxiumcough.  It devalues prior currency because it's no longer enough -- now whatever the new means of acquisition is must be engaged in as well.  I don't really want to get deeply into this, but the short version is that I hate it; it's the easiest short-term solution but it solves nothing in the long term and makes a giant sloppy mess of the world it's used in.  It'd be fine in moderation, but it's almost never used in moderation -- and it results in piles of creature types or entire areas that need to be maintained long after whatever problem they were introduced to solve ceases to be relevant.  In my opinion, it's like paying off your car with your credit card.  And *everyone* does it.  And *everyone* has to do a currency overhaul every 2-4 years to solve all the problems it's causing.  Blech.

     

  • Deprecation.  This is slightly different than both of the above things, and basically it's Argon.  It means having a resource that has a built-in means of being worth less tomorrow (or a week from now, or whatever) than it was yesterday.  Introducing this (and the next system) from the get-go are probably the best ways of dealing with the economy problem.

     

  • Necessity/Operating Cost.  A periodic obligation the player must meet to continue playing at the level with which they've become accustomed.  The short version is 'like repairing armor in many games.'  This system alone, by the way, is never enough -- if it's a significant enough cost to balance the economy as a whole, it means in practice that about two thirds of your playerbase cannot meet their normal operating costs, and will probably quit in (entirely justifiable) anger at your crushingly heavy-handed economic system.  But in conjunction with some of these other systems, it's one of the best ways to mitigate the issue... if and only if it's introduced from the beginning.  Otherwise it's pretty obnoxious, like giving someone free lunch every day for a few months and then when they stop carrying cash, putting up a sign that it's going to be $10.
     
  • Vanity.  This is the oldest solution to the faucet problem -- the empty sink.  Sure, you don't need a Kubrow to be competitive -- there are some compelling arguments to keep your Sentinel floating around for a while.  But I bet you want one because they look pretty darn nifty.  Plus it's brand new!  And everyone else has one!  And darn nifty!  ...Well, you'd better fork over some credits, because they don't come cheap.  Even early-adopting with Platinum purchases I've spent 150K on mine already.

    The solutions proposed by the OP are basically, "More faucet!"  And while I can see the appeal... okay, actually, I can't see the appeal.  That's a terrible idea, and best-case scenario it keeps DE scrambling hard to balance their own revenue (since buying cash shop weapons or resources would be even more ludicrous than it already is) with the additional labor they need to keep the game interesting (since new play elements would need to constantly be introduced since content gating would be basically a non-thing).  Don't ask for that.  If you want them to remove a resource sink in one area, offer a different sink as a solution.

 

Edited by noneuklid
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I don't like the use of stabalizers or loyalty systems. Or more-so, how the DE's are going about doing it.

As an older player, I can afford 100,000 credits for stabalizers. But for new players? How long will that take? 3 sets of 5 invasion missions for credits? And with it constantly decreasing, that means ALL players with Kubrows have to spend 100,000 every week to keep it alive? Now, before U14, I only logged in once or twice a week for an hour because frankly, I was bored of grinding. But now I HAVE to log in to grind for this otherwise I'm penalized. "Oh well just put it in stasis." That Costs plat and once again forcing someone to spend money just because they're taking a break for a few weeks. Granted since the update I've been playing every day but what about people that don't?

I just used my Kubrow for the first time on mercury (I started out small) and he died in 70% of the missions. He's too weak and there's no bleed out indicator to show me where he ran off to and (all suicidal) jumped into a crowd of enemies. (Now I'm hearing whispers that there is no bleed out?) I like the concept of the loyalty system and you're right, if they get killed in battle then they would be a little &!$$ed. But if I'm doing a simple T1 survival/defense mission, and both a teammate and my Kubrow goes down, I'm forced to pick my Kubrow over my fellow Tenno because of the drawbacks. 

What I suggest:

1) remove the stabalizers, or make them 1,000 credits instead of a whoppng 100,000.
2) Either have an infinite bleed out where the Kubrow becomes incipacitated indefinatly until I can get to it and help it up, OR teleport them to the ship when they "die" and your loyalty isn't touched. 
3) Loyalty is only affected when you don't use it. *Random % of missions completed* > *% of missions using the Kubrow* = neglected. This way you have to give it love by taking it out, but you don't have to worry about stasis'ing it. If you log off for a month, your game picks up right where you left off. Why shouldn't your Kubrow?

I really hope this post gets some attention because I hate feeling really bad when I keep getting my pet dog killed so much that I don't even want to take it outside for a walk around the Grineer shipyards. 

Edited by chaosbleeds91
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As an older player, I can afford 100,000 credits for stabalizers. But for new players? How long will that take? 

Dunno.  Sentinel BPs cost 100K credits + 15K to craft.

 

"Oh well just put it in stasis." That Costs plat 

 

No it doesn't.

 

 

if I'm doing a simple T1 survival/defense mission, and both a teammate and my Kubrow goes down, I'm forced to pick my Kubrow over my fellow Tenno

 

You're a terrible person.  "Well, I could've saved you, but I didn't feel like risking a few thousand credits worth of health on my Kubrow.  You're good on revives today, right?"

 

What I suggest:

 

If you can't keep your kubrow alive, don't use it.  I promise DE will pay much more attention to no one using Kubrows than they will to people complaining about the costs of Kubrows.

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1) remove the stabalizers, or make them 1,000 credits instead of a whoppng 100,000.

2) Either have an infinite bleed out where the Kubrow becomes incipacitated indefinatly until I can get to it and help it up, OR teleport them to the ship when they "die" and your loyalty isn't touched. 

- 1000Cr for a box of 6 would be pretty measly, and thusly pointless. they're expensive so that they have an impact on the game. piss poor cheap would mean it's a bloat feature that doesn't do anything useful other than require more clicks. that would be bad.

 

- that could be interesting i suppose, a decent timer to revive them if they die, and if you can't get to them, some consumables you can craft to opt to just warp your Kubro back to your Liset to save it that way.

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You're a terrible person.  "Well, I could've saved you, but I didn't feel like risking a few thousand credits worth of health on my Kubrow.  You're good on revives today, right?"

 

You're absolutely right! I would be! I wouldn't want to have to pick and choose at all. I'm always one to rush to save a downed guy, but guess what? That's going to happen! You can look at me like I'm a monster for saying it, but someone has to! Why should we be forced to decide who lives and who dies in the first place?

And saying that I'm the only person who lets their Kubrow die is really narrow minded (see what I did there). Anyone who says their Kubrow or Sentinal has never died is either lying or only plays Mercury. Isn't it better to verbally state a problem that a community as a whole is having instead of ignoring it as ludacris it because it doesn't apply to you?

Edited by chaosbleeds91
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Why should we be forced to decide who lives and who dies in the first place?

In the context of playing a space ninja who finds it easier to launch the supernatural equivalent of a fission bomb than sit down, I'm not sure how to answer that question.

 

 Isn't it better to verbally state a problem that a community as a whole is having

Scroll up a little further.

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I will go out on a limb and say I do like argon crystal decay.

 

why? It kind of keeps the void/derelict (if they drop there, don't recall they do, they should) somewhat active, if not more active. Yeah, it kind of sucks having to go back to get crystals. But after I left my clan, that was pretty active and have been a part of since like update 8 or 9, shortly after clans were added. All I had to do was mention a void run, and we were there. When you rely on /recruiting its nice to see people within both ends of the spectrum as far as knowledge, and ability go.

 

Kubrow maintenance is garbage. Why the hell is my dog dying of space cancer? Why does my dog have a 3 hour summoning sickness? And why in gods name is there a rush out of that? The whole concept of kubrows seems to revolve around some kind of sick experiment around Asian style monietzation. Which is in such close proximity to that thing that we just flipped out about earlier, that makes me feel uncomfortable..like we're being focus tested weather or not they should do it.

 

And what really grosses me out is, a lot of people who play this game are probably giving them data to support these vile strategies. Anyone notice the silly crap on the 'popular' sector of the market front page, mod packs, I think I saw credit packs, and the kubrow starter kits. I bet if you put a coin slot on the kubrow, and demanded 5p per hour, the 'whales' would be jamming platinum quarters into their dogs.

 

God, what I wouldin't do just to look at the data on how many people spent more than 100p scrambling the colors on their kubrows, cause I haven't seen one hatch that wasin't white..or off white.

Edited by DirkDeadeye
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On the subject of Argon Crystals.....

 

Having them Decay and them being common, easy to get, guaranteed 1 per void run = OK

Having them be pretty rare and heavy RNG and not decay at all = OK

Having them Decay AND be pretty rare and hard to get = NOT OK

 

And I don't want to hear some idiot come along and say "I get them all the time!"

 

Yes, well, some of us can spend 5 keys+ and not get a single 'crystal. I'm one of those people who, on average, needs to spend 3-4 keys before I see a crystal or two drop. This is commonplace for me.

 

As to the "You don't have to go in void to get crystals now!"

 

This is a BUG. It has been listed in the Issues Megathread as "Resources are dropping in places not intended". It will be fixed then it will be back to VOID ONRY.

 

On the subject of Kubrows, I agree. 100k is way too expensive. We are already forced to interact with them constantly or stick them in stasis, but we ALSO have to spend huge mountains of credits?

 

Or I could..... you know... take a Sentinel who needs no credits and no forced interaction and has no loyalty issues, and can even resurrect itself automatically once per map and almost never gets shot at or hit except for AoE explosions.

 

As of their current Live implementation, I cannot really fathom why I'd take a Kubrow on any actual serious mission. I like the Kubrow, don't get me wrong, but the mechanics behind them are just.... not appealing. I'll keep one as a pet on my Liset, probably have to stick her in stasis so she doesn't drain my credits dry, sadly.

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OP's post

I agree about Kubrows, but I want to mention an important point about Argon.

 

Hardly ANYTHING in the game requires large amounts of Argon to build. I have almost all end-game weapons and AT MOST, I've need about...what? 6 crystals? (I think that was the highest I ever used in a Single Day). If I ever need new Argon I just go to recruiting, join a survival mission and boom 1 - 2 crystals every time.

 

Use what you need and then never bother with it again. PLAN your weapon purchases so you know what materials you need beforehand. You don't need to stock up, when you know exactly what you're going to do. So Argon is not a problem, it is not a necessity for the most important item (forma), so it shouldn't be a priority since you don't need it everyday to craft.

Edited by Semshol
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Honestly until you need like 5 Argon crystals to build something. It is mostly fine.

I had another 9 vaporized on me since I could not trade it.

 

Kubrow stabilizing cost can be reduced some what.

But it should still be there.

Edited by fatpig84
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@noneuklid,

 

I want to pick a small disagreement with your post in one regard.  Inflation.  Credits in game have only one real use.  Acquiring gear.  They cannot be used to pay for trading with other players (platinum is used for this), and have no real impact outside of paying for blueprints or mod adjustments.  As such, they really don't have much value at all.  Making an item which requires very large uses of Credits in no way hampers those veterans who already have the means of making millions of credits a week, but it does brutally penalize new players who can barely meet the expenses that fusing mods require. 

 

The current Kubrow DNA system is designed to punish any new player who attempts to partake of the game.  If you design the new items around pandering to the elitist veterans, then the elitist veterans are eventually the only people who will be in the game.

 

This is not healthy for the game as a whole, and no one should be for a system that restricts the access to the game's content.

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Credits in game have only one real use.  Acquiring gear.  

I said "resources," not credits; and without getting into the problems of defining "real use," I would have to say this isn't true (credits are used for mod fusion, they are used in trading, etc).  But those are actually secondary to my main issue with this statement: It's a gross oversimplification.

Because guns in Warframe only have one real use. Killing enemies.

It just so happens that gear acquisition is a core game element.  Whether that's written as an essay, a paragraph, or a single sentence, controlling the flow of credits is literally essential to the game as it is.

 

The current Kubrow DNA system is designed to punish any new player who attempts to partake of the game.  

 

No, it isn't.  Kubrows are a vanity purchase; depending on what you are doing exactly, they range from marginally better to significantly worse than Sentinels as companions.  Please join me in advising new players to buy Shades or Carriers rather than rushing to Earth to grind for space doggies.

 

and no one should be for a system that restricts the access to the game's content.

 

...This statement needs an essay as long as the previous one on economics.  Content gating is a staple of MOGs for reasons... and I don't think I've seen you campaigning for the removal of void keys for all these long months.  I feel like nearly everyone is in favor of having a new shiny just a little further on.

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