Stamina And Why It Needs To Change (A Melee Complaint)

[thecritcommander]

     Ok. So we finally get a sword and shield weapon. AWESOME! Busted our butts off to farm the materials for it, or we just bought it. Take it out into the field and it blocks 100% of the damage! Excellent! But whats this? My stamina is GONE?!?! But i just blocked for 2 seconds!! Oh crap now I'm swamped and being mowed down. 

 

     A poorly worded example, but an example none the less. Blocking is something that is so lack luster in Warframe that its surprising anyone does so. Every weapon other than Aegis has bleed through damage even when blocking, and Aegis itself cant block for more than a couple seconds. The reason this is a problem is Stamina. All stamina is for is to limit the player from doing what their supposed to do: Wallrunning and Blocking. Now, the game has very few points where wallrunning is really needed, and blocking is unfeasible with all the high damage/high speed weapons mowing people down already. I have two ideas that could fix this.

 

     My first idea is the more drastic: The complete removal of stamina.

 

     As it is now, wallrunning is already limited by height you can run straight up, depending on speed of frame, and drop offs on horizontal wall running.

   

     Causing a stamina drain to boot is just wasteful. Not only that, but it makes blocking useless, as a pair of zorens or a few bullets from a grineer wipe out your blocking ability in total within just a few seconds. Now, most people will argue that by the time that happens, you'll be in range to cut down the assailant by then, but this isnt always the case. To block you must have your melee weapon in hand, and moving forward while blocking drains more stamina than standing still and blocking, thus breaking the block even faster. You will guaranteed take damage. 

 

    For those saying that sprinting will become infinite, so what? Sprinting does little in terms of changing gameplay other than moving faster through areas. If it really is that big of a deal, then at minimum make stamina into a running only thing.

 

   The PvP aspect, which some will say I touched up on above, needs this as well. Everyone chooses their melee weapon (usually dragon nikana), solely because of damage and speed. Having a shield is useless if it cant keep up.

 

 

 

My second idea would take a bit of work: Reworking Shielding.

 

 

   Shields would stand their ground better if they didnt take up so much stamina. Some people argue that the Aegis would be broken if you didnt eventually have to drop your guard, but again this isnt the case. Its attack range is very short, and damage isnt that impressive either. Its big draw is its ability to negate bleed through damage when blocking, but because it saps 10 stamina per second, it hardly does that. Plus, due to how Warframe's gameplay is, its easy to knock someone on their feet, effectively ending the block. This goes for PvP and PvE. Simply get around the shield to take out the shielder. Grineer Lancers already have this mechanic, as you can smack away at their shield all you want, but all you will get for it is a $#*(@ smack with it, knocking you on your @$$.

 

     I don't know if I'm the only one who's thought of this, but i really think it needs addressed with SOMETHING. 

Edited July 24, 2014 by thecritcommander

[thecritcommander]

Addition: To counter arguments of realism, Mirage makes holograms that actually do damage. Not physically possible. 

[Jun-Mai]

+1

[BaronessBlacksilk]

I've been an avid supporter of having a shield in this game since I started playing it. I agree with you. and would like to see perhaps a special mod card for the weapon itself or added onto the stance is either a highly reduced cost in blocking or negating the cost at all. I've already seen very few people using it as it is just to level and everyone I've heard talk about it complains about the damage it does. I'm fine with the low damage but I do feel it's defensive ability should be improved greatly to account for what it should be. A defensive based weapon for holding chokepoints, protecting teammates and the like.

Edited July 24, 2014 by CanonessDeTylmarande

[Rexlars]

There are stamina mods you know. 

 

But I understand what you're saying. 

 

No one wants to take up all their mod slots with stamina mods anyway.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Rexlars

[thecritcommander]

There are stamina mods you know. 

 

But I understand what you're saying. 

 

No one wants to take up all their mod slots with stamina mods. 

 

It's not just that. It's the fact that having a shield is useless if it blocks even LESS thank a katana, which is COMPLETELY stupid.

[Hybridon]

Melee 2.0 needs a Melee 2.5.

 

- Most stances arent worth other than the extra mod slots.

- Too many flying enemies, and no option on what to do with your melee.

- Melee combo counter drains out too quick.

- Stamina consumption on melee weapons is too damn high, making close combat on higher levels not a risk-reward, only a high risk.

[MoyuTheTrinity]

It's not just that. It's the fact that having a shield is useless if it blocks even LESS thank a katana, which is COMPLETELY stupid.

katana also costs 7.5 stam to swing and its  big twohanded sword while the short dagger and metal sheets suspended in air by fire  is 10

[BaronessBlacksilk]

There are stamina mods you know. 

 

But I understand what you're saying. 

 

No one wants to take up all their mod slots with stamina mods anyway.

I actually use both stamina mods on my Saryn with her stam helm, blocking at 20+ is still a chore let alone trying to do a T4

[DiabolusUrsus]

Nope. I am against scrapping gameplay elements with potential for the sake of convenience. Consider this instead: Remove energy cost from melee channeling attacks, and remove stamina drain from normal melee swings and sprinting.

Melee Channeling now costs stamina, along with blocking. Adjust the stamina costs accordingly. All of a sudden, channeling is no longer in direct competition with powers, and stamina mods are suddenly useful. Furthermore, stamina-free sprinting and normal melee attacks make the game feel a lot more fluid and less restrictive.

 

It's improving a system instead of scrapping it. 

[thecritcommander]

Nope. I am against scrapping gameplay elements with potential for the sake of convenience. Consider this instead: Remove energy cost from melee channeling attacks, and remove stamina drain from normal melee swings and sprinting.

Melee Channeling now costs stamina, along with blocking. Adjust the stamina costs accordingly. All of a sudden, channeling is no longer in direct competition with powers, and stamina mods are suddenly useful. Furthermore, stamina-free sprinting and normal melee attacks make the game feel a lot more fluid and less restrictive.

 

It's improving a system instead of scrapping it. 

This isnt about channeling, though i like the idea. This is about blocking and making it worth a damn. Stamina just happens to be the reason why it isnt useful

[BaronessBlacksilk]

Nope. I am against scrapping gameplay elements with potential for the sake of convenience. Consider this instead: Remove energy cost from melee channeling attacks, and remove stamina drain from normal melee swings and sprinting.

Melee Channeling now costs stamina, along with blocking. Adjust the stamina costs accordingly. All of a sudden, channeling is no longer in direct competition with powers, and stamina mods are suddenly useful. Furthermore, stamina-free sprinting and normal melee attacks make the game feel a lot more fluid and less restrictive.

 

It's improving a system instead of scrapping it. 

I like the idea for taking the cost off swinging and sprinting. I remember them saying when they first talked about blocking that different weapons would be more effective at blocking. Doesn't seem like a big difference.

Edited July 24, 2014 by CanonessDeTylmarande

[DiabolusUrsus]

This isnt about channeling, though i like the idea. This is about blocking and making it worth a damn. Stamina just happens to be the reason why it isnt useful

 

I am well aware that this isn't about channeling, but it's relevant because the stamina system can still be useful for something, and being able to block indefinitely WOULD be overpowered. I agree that blocking costs too much stamina at the moment, and the Aegis should definitely be more efficient than other weapons in that respect, but I don't think scrapping stamina is an acceptable idea. 

 

Stamina should stay. It should just be specific to Channeling and Blocking, with its respective costs balanced with that in mind. 

 

I like the idea for taking the cost off swinging and sprinting. I remember them saying when they first talked about blocking that different weapons would be more effective at blocking. Doesn't seem like a big difference.

 

Agreed, and there needs to be a bigger and more noticeable difference, especially when it comes to block-specialized weapons like the Aegis. 

[thecritcommander]

I am well aware that this isn't about channeling, but it's relevant because the stamina system can still be useful for something, and being able to block indefinitely WOULD be overpowered. I agree that blocking costs too much stamina at the moment, and the Aegis should definitely be more efficient than other weapons in that respect, but I don't think scrapping stamina is an acceptable idea. 

 

 

The enemies have units that can do the exact same thing, and plenty of ways to knock you onto your face. Blocking indefinitely wouldnt be overpowered, since there are plenty of ways to either get around to the back, or knock the shield user off their feet, both in PvE and PvP.

Edited July 24, 2014 by thecritcommander

[BaronessBlacksilk]

My Saryn can burn out of stamina in about 3 seconds, running Dual Ichor with berserker going. That's with all the stam additions on her too. Also, perhaps some changes could happen with the one channeling card that converts damage blocked into stamina.

[DiabolusUrsus]

The enemies have units that can do the exact same thing, and plenty of ways to knock you onto your face. Blocking indefinitely wouldnt be overpowered, since there are plenty of ways to either get around to the back, or knock the shield user off their feet, both in PvE and PvP.

 

Not entirely true. With appropriately applied melee channeling, you're immune to knockback. With proper positioning, you can cover your back as well. Infinite blocking would be overpowered; just add Reflection. Sure, the damage it does isn't all that great, but when you're invulnerable and completely protected, you could potentially just sit there until enemies killed themselves. Infinite blocking would be overpowered. 

[thecritcommander]

Not entirely true. With appropriately applied melee channeling, you're immune to knockback. With proper positioning, you can cover your back as well. Infinite blocking would be overpowered; just add Reflection. Sure, the damage it does isn't all that great, but when you're invulnerable and completely protected, you could potentially just sit there until enemies killed themselves. Infinite blocking would be overpowered. 

 

   I had that reflection argument thrown at me too, and honestly, i'd say get rid of the mod with it. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

My Saryn can burn out of stamina in about 3 seconds, running Dual Ichor with berserker going. That's with all the stam additions on her too. Also, perhaps some changes could happen with the one channeling card that converts damage blocked into stamina.

 

Again, I agree that the costs of blocking are way out of whack, though they're somewhat exacerbated by stamina consumption from sprinting and normal melee. Blocking costs should be reduced across the board. 

 

There's only two things I'm disagreeing with here:

a) that stamina should be dispensed with entirely, and 

 

b) that blocking should be unlimited. 

[BaronessBlacksilk]

I'm with you there. I'm just looking at ways that if they aren't going to make passive changes to it all then perhaps it could be worked better into the mods system.

[DiabolusUrsus]

   I had that reflection argument thrown at me too, and honestly, i'd say get rid of the mod with it. 

 

See, this is the whole mentality that I just can't disagree with. Something troubles you, so get rid of it entirely. All it takes is a little bit of effort - a little bit of balancing, and your issues disappear while the game maintains its diversity. 

 

If your whole idea is just scrapping a gameplay element, I disagree. There are plenty of interesting and reasonable things that can be done with blocking and stamina aside from just giving the player an arbitrary power boost.

 

Edit: Typo.  

Edited July 24, 2014 by DiabolusUrsus

[thecritcommander]

See, this is the whole mentality that I just can't disagree with. Something troubles you, so get rid of it entirely. All it takes is a little bit of effort - a little bit of balancing, and your issues disappear while the game maintains its diversity. 

 

If your whole idea is just scrapping a gameplay element, I disagree. There are plenty of interesting and reasonable things that can be done with blocking and stamina aside from just giving the player an arbitrary power boost.

 

Edit: Typo.  

 

I did mention that iw as a drastic idea, and i even stated a rebalance. Just stating theres 2 ways to go about fixing this stuff

[DiabolusUrsus]

I did mention that iw as a drastic idea, and i even stated a rebalance. Just stating theres 2 ways to go about fixing this stuff

 

And what I'm saying is that your proposed "drastic idea" is unnecessary, because there are other, less-destructive ideas that should be readily apparent. A simple adjustment to the stamina cost for blocking with the Aegis being the first one that springs to mind. 

[MoyuTheTrinity]

what if instead of removing gameplay choices when we run out of stam they change it to be

+0%   stam = emerything suffers 10%  <-cant sprint still possibly

+25% stam = everything suffers 5%

+50% stam = normal sprint efficiency, sprint speed ,melee damage, melee efficiency, melee channeling efficiency, blocking stam efficiency, blocking damage mitigation

+75% stam = everything gainst 5% more

100% stam = everything gains 10% more

 

this way we can still do everything even with 0 stam but we pay for it and are encouraged to pay attention to it

Edited July 24, 2014 by MoyuTheMedic

[LasersGoPewPew]

if melee-ing didn't cost stamina in the first place, and blocking with a shield reduced the cost per deflection heavily i'd say the silva/aegis weapon itself would be spot on perfect, not game breaking but also functional.

 

blocking in general: i do agree that we should expend stamina when deflecting bullets and parrying melee attackers, but not 20% of our stamina bar per bullet at mid game, at most 1% of our stamina bar per reflection. instead of damage=stamina lost for blocking, each attack itself should only cost 1-2 stamina per deflection.

[BaronessBlacksilk]

blocking in general: i do agree that we should expend stamina when deflecting bullets and parrying melee attackers, but not 20% of our stamina bar per bullet at mid game, at most 1% of our stamina bar per reflection. instead of damage=stamina lost for blocking, each attack itself should only cost 1-2 stamina per deflection.

 

I would make slight adjustments to this based on what weapon was being fired. Sniper rounds should have a significantly higher impact but then again I don't even notice sniper enemies save for the sound of the weapon itself. Per bullet/pellet otherwise wouldn't be bad for automatics and shotguns.