Stamina And Why It Needs To Change (A Melee Complaint)

[AureusVulpes]

if melee-ing didn't cost stamina in the first place, and blocking with a shield reduced the cost per deflection heavily i'd say the silva/aegis weapon itself would be spot on perfect, not game breaking but also functional.

 

blocking in general: i do agree that we should expend stamina when deflecting bullets and parrying melee attackers, but not 20% of our stamina bar per bullet at mid game, at most 1% of our stamina bar per reflection. instead of damage=stamina lost for blocking, each attack itself should only cost 1-2 stamina per deflection.

 

I would make slight adjustments to this based on what weapon was being fired. Sniper rounds should have a significantly higher impact but then again I don't even notice sniper enemies save for the sound of the weapon itself. Per bullet/pellet otherwise wouldn't be bad for automatics and shotguns.

 

I also agree that stamina drain per block needs to be per projectile, not per damage. This makes blocking far less useful across the board (SnA or otherwise) later game when it would ACTUALLY BE USEFUL TO USE. Early game, no one really cares about getting shot several times by a grineer goon they're rushing, cause his bullets do jack. Now, when you get to mid game, and if you're running melee primarily, and are now getting chewed up, you might go "hey, they had a block function in the game, how do I do that again?...".... after you look it up in the keybindings menu, you use it, and get wasted anyway, because it drains your stamina in less than 2 seconds.

 

Suddenly, COPTERING is way better at defending yourself for a close. This is unacceptable for a defensive maneuver. An offensive maneuver doing the job of a defensive maneuver.

 

On the subject of damage mitigation: SnA is the only melee that completely mitigates damage taken by blocking; all other melees only partially mitigate damage taken. Given the SnA has a generally lower damage output then other melees, you still wind up taking damage mid combat if there are multiple targets. Other melees, which take damage from attacks while blocking anyway, will suffer less damage while dispensing multiple targets; balance is preserved, at least partially, in this aspect.

 

Given the attacks aren't hitting you any harder (as evident from not causing you to stagger backwards on hit later in the game), it doesn't make sense that it would take more effort to block an attack just because it would do more damage. Real life example: board with a nail in it versus a wooden spiked mace of identical weight and force. Sure the wooden mace would do a more impact-type damage, and the board with a nail in it would do puncture type damage, but I'm fairly certain the board with a nail in it would do more actual damage to a person's arm if swung with the same moderate force as the wooden mace. The wooden mace might be a little painful, but the board with a nail in it would do farm more actual damage. Blocking either one with a wooden plank would require the same amount of effort. Same deal here. A bullet is a bullet, and there's no reason a level 1 Grakata should take less damage to block than a level 20 Grakata, just because it is capable of inflicting more physical harm.

[Azawarau]

I dont like either of these ideas

 

Raising the base stamina on every frame and combining Marathon and quick rest would be my suggestion

 

Possibly buff melee stam regen mods

[BaronessBlacksilk]

I dont like either of these ideas

 

Raising the base stamina on every frame and combining Marathon and quick rest would be my suggestion

 

Possibly buff melee stam regen mods

I run Saryn with the Chlora helm and both stam mods. Second wind helps you only when you manage to reach the targets and kill them. I wouldn't mind having more base stamina but this issue I'm looking at here is that blocking isn't really that viable mid to late game compared to high mobility, especially with a weapon that should specialize in it.

[Azawarau]

I run Saryn with the Chlora helm and both stam mods. Second wind helps you only when you manage to reach the targets and kill them. I wouldn't mind having more base stamina but this issue I'm looking at here is that blocking isn't really that viable mid to late game compared to high mobility, especially with a weapon that should specialize in it.

Ive done the opposite

 

Near dropping even warcry in favor of being able to block shots long enough to get by enemies and stun lock melee spam while healing with my Valkyr :x

 

But the stam isnt enough and Valkyrs build is very tight

[BaronessBlacksilk]

My Valkyr is the one frame I don't worry much about. I run a max power strength, max armor build on her with warcry and narrowminded. Only time I use her though is if I want to hardcore farm T4 survivals or just have fun with melee without any worries. I still use my block to mitigate the little damage I would take as it makes for good practice and Valk has more base stam than pretty much almost every frame.

[thecritcommander]

Valkyr has base 150 Stam while others only have 80-100. Her armor is also the highest of all frames, and her abilities are melee based, making her the perfect frame for the Aegis/Silva. Problem is, the weapon is useless.

[Azawarau]

My Valkyr is the one frame I don't worry much about. I run a max power strength, max armor build on her with warcry and narrowminded. Only time I use her though is if I want to hardcore farm T4 survivals or just have fun with melee without any worries. I still use my block to mitigate the little damage I would take as it makes for good practice and Valk has more base stam than pretty much almost every frame.

I run a 6 or 7 forma Valkyr and T 4 missions really give me some heat with all of my builds

 

Max Marathon and Quick rest Valkyr  doesnt last very long as all against a wave of enemies so you really have to push through and get to them before you run out or youre done

 

The bad side of this is youll have low stam when you get there so killing and going is tough when you can gain enough to keep pace

 

Its driving me back to QT tanking for emergencies since stam doesnt last long enough to really be viable compared to tanking up and taking hits

Edited July 25, 2014 by Azawarau

[Drasiel]

I have never been very fond of the stamina system in warframe, mostly because I feel like it doesn't add anything to the game. I made a crazy idea post about removing the stamina system entirely and replacing it with a noise system a coon's age ago, and I'm just going to copy what said I there about the stamina system because it's still how I feel about it.

 

from the 23rd of September 2013: (I would put this in a quote if I could but the end quote won't close the quote for some weird reason)

Why I personally don't like Stamina Systems in General and in Warframe specifically:

 

The stamina system that sticks most in my mind is the stamina bar in Diablo 2. This is not because it was a well handled mechanic but more because it  was (to me) executed really poorly. In early game it is a constant hindrance and in late game it barely bothers you at all. This was my first real experience with a stamina bar and it did not set the bar high. Every other time I ran into stamina it either irritatingly slowed down game play or didn't really affect it at all making it unnecessary. In  a couple of games it worked well with the game play and ended up enhancing the experience (shadow of the colossus is a good example of this), but I couldn't tell you if it was because the developers found the perfect stamina balance or the style of game play better fit a stamina system.

 

Warframe's Stamina system reminds me of Diablo 2's. It hinders you until you learn to work around it. You probably know what I am referring to, sliding to regain stamina while you run or zoren/fangcoptering to pretty much bypass it. If you really want to you can add a stamina mod to make your life easier, but it's still not really necessary even with the recent stamina tweaks.

For anybody who is curious about the entirety of that archived post here is a link https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/112272-stamina-is-akin-to-hunger-systems-extraneous-together-we-can-do-better/#entry1300180

 

 

Even with the more recent changes to melee and blocking, stamina still feels like that one slightly uncomfortable chair that you pull out of the closet when you have one too many guests over. It's inconvenient to be stuck with, but not worth making a fuss over :\ . The more I've thought about what makes a good stamina system the more I come down to tests of endurance vs the world. Here's two examples of what mean:

 

Climbing in Shadows of the Colossus is given extra tension and makes you pay more attention to how you use up your stamina and where you can recover it because climbing the Colossi (and killing them) IS the core of the game and one of the major themes is that you, a tiny nearly insignificant human, are pitted against something that is more a force of nature than a creature. Defeating such a monster despite the limitations the stamina system places on you is what makes it feel like a real achievement when you bring down a Colossi, as well as hammering home how fragile you are compared to them with every slip or fall caused by losing all your stamina.

 

In "I Am Alive" (A post apocalypse pseudo survival game) in order to navigate and reach your goals you often have to climb over the shattered remnants of a once familiar world. The constant drain to stamina while climbing helps bring home that you are not some super powered badass, you are just a normal guy who wants to find his family and stay alive.

 

Warframe has nothing like this. What serves as tests of endurance are 1hour + high level survivals or round XXX on endless defence. Not only that but everything is geared towards making us feel powerful. We are elite space ninja's from the distant shadowy past, a terror to behold and a nightmare to face. The feeling of weakness or struggle to physical overcome things that seems to make stamina systems shine, is simple missing from warframe. 

[fatpig84]

It is not the whole system is a problem, it is silva and aegis that needs buffing.

I ran Quick rest and I have rarely if ever run out of stamina while blocking... Just saying.

Edited July 26, 2014 by fatpig84

[RealPandemonium]

Stamina in general is more of a nuisance than anything.  The only thing stamina does for me is limit the number of consecutive slide attacks I can perform, and occasionally make me jog for a few seconds after I've sprinted for a long time.  It's just annoying and not really a factor in gameplay besides as a blocking limiter for those few who wield their melee stance.

[Jokubas]

I'd entirely behind your first proposal: remove stamina.

 

I'm not aware of anything it adds to the game other than some minor nuisances. And those nuisances aren't of the necessary evil kind either. The game wouldn't break if people could sprint infinitely or whatever. Is there anything it prevents that you'd even notice?

[fatpig84]

I'd entirely behind your first proposal: remove stamina.

 

I'm not aware of anything it adds to the game other than some minor nuisances. And those nuisances aren't of the necessary evil kind either. The game wouldn't break if people could sprint infinitely or whatever. Is there anything it prevents that you'd even notice?

 

"Oh noes ze Rushers !'

We had that before lol

[__Kanade__]

Stamina needs to be there, shield or no shield, you will get tired from blocking attack after attack eventually.

 

Vindictus balances its stamina system perfectly, specifically for Fiona who's the only character that uses shields to block attacks and each attack drains her stamina the longer she sits in heavy stander or from regular blocks.

 

Like Warframe, you have remedies to counter stamina costs with stamina mods. In Vindictus, you use stamina potions to help regenerate stamina quickly, so fifi can get some stamina back while in heavy stander between each attack.

 

Few games take out stamina for infinite sprint like battlefield and cod, but most the their maps are large ( single player for cod ), especially battlefields. Warframes tilesets excluding Corpus planetside tileset are too small and they're enemies in each room, but this game is heavily exploited through coptering which still requires stamina to use. Taking away stamina will make the game worse when DE still doesn't understand balance.

Edited August 3, 2014 by __Kanade__

[Azawarau]

Stamina needs to be there, shield or no shield, you will get tired from blocking attack after attack eventually.

 

Vindictus balances its stamina system perfectly, specifically for Fiona who's the only character that uses shields to block attacks and each attack drains her stamina the longer she sits in heavy stander or from regular blocks.

 

Like Warframe, you have remedies to counter stamina costs with stamina mods. In Vindictus, you use stamina potions to help regenerate stamina quickly, so fifi can get some stamina back while in heavy stander between each attack.

 

Few games take out stamina for infinite sprint like battlefield and cod, but most the their maps are large ( single player for cod ), especially battlefields. Warframes tilesets excluding Corpus planetside tileset are too small and they're enemies in each room, but this game is heavily exploited through coptering which still requires stamina to use. Taking away stamina will make the game worse when DE still doesn't understand balance.

My big issue is having less than a  second of total block time with the highest stam possible and stamina rapidly depleting in heated melee leaving you entirely unable to block

[DeadVoid118]

Stamina? No! I agree, stamina is an annoyance AT BEST

[J-Reyno]

I also dislike stamina.  A lot.

 

At the very least I'd like for blocking to consume FAR less stamina across the board, not just for S&A.  It's really not even a feasible mechanic right now.  None of the stamina mods help at all.  Quick Rest is the best of them but it doesn't help with blocking in the least.  Plus I only have like one warframe with room to spare for it, and that's mostly so I can sprint nonstop.