Power Efficiency; Why It Is Broken And How It Can Be Fixed.

[Stravix]

So, one thing that has been bugging me so far is how the power efficiency stat is currently being handled.  As of right now, both fleeting expertice and streamline have been added to the list of mandatory mods for any mid-late game player.  This is becasue, unlike every other stat modifier in the game, power efficiency scales exponentially instead of linearly.  For example; if you were to add 50% power efficiency you would be able to cast your abilities twice as often, but by adding half more, you can now cast them four times as often. This makes maxing out power efficiency a must for any later build warframe, thus leaving Blind rage with almost no usability.  As it stands a pure power efficiency build will do more damage per energy than a build that has both efficiency mods with both strength mods.  2.20 / 0.65 = 3.52 < 4 = 1 / 0.25

 

This needs to change.  a simple rearrangement of the way power efficiency is calculated could bring power efficiency in line with every other stat.  As is power useage is determined by; Base Cost * (1 - Power Efficiency)

 

In order to make the graph of ability uses per set energy  a linear one one would simply need to modify the equation to be; Base Cost / (1 + Power Efficiency) 

 

If such a change were made two other small changes would also have to be implemented; firstly the arbitrary 75% cap on power efficiency would need to be removed and fleeting expertice should be brought in line numerically with the other corrupted mods at 10 ranks for +9% Efficiency and -5% Duration per rank

 

Any feedback / suggestions / counter-arguements?

 

 

EDIT:  Due to the comments talking about how if DE were to remove PE it would break certain things I say, do you see anything here about removing PE, this is a thread on how to rework to calculations for balance sake, not a rage thread saying that it should be removed. Thank you.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Stravix

[NikolaiLev]

I honestly think efficiency should just be removed.  It's too useful a stat to be in the game unless the numbers on Streamline and FE were heavily decreased.

 

Expect non-constructive posts, though.  Any attempt to ask DE to balance the game will met with fierce resistance.  People just don't like having variety for some reason.

[VioDuskar]

I honestly think efficiency should just be removed.  It's too useful a stat to be in the game unless the numbers on Streamline and FE were heavily decreased.

 

Expect non-constructive posts, though.  Any attempt to ask DE to balance the game will met with fierce resistance.  People just don't like having variety for some reason.

 

conflicting much?

 

and to the OP: these mods have drawbacks, and you have to balance builds around each drawback. want a stompy rhino? use BR and FE!

and a absorbing nyx? use FE, wait, want her 1st and 3rd to have duration, use narrowmind!

 

these mods are so useful because they have negative effects. I dont have a problem using BR, and FE, and NM, and OE on the same build. WAIT WAIT WAIT! all four? yeah, i have before. because forma and potatoes.  they all balance each other out. i love having options, choosing which abilities i want to specialize in. if you're using all of a warframes abilities on every warframe you arent getting the most out of any one or two abilities. thats why these mods are in the game, to specialize.

 

so keep power efficiency. and it isnt about just being able to spam abilities. hydroid, nyx, and banshee rely on efficiency now instead of duration for their toggle on/off powers/

[Pandoran_Stallion]

I like this, save one thing: Fleeting, under that system, would give you 99% efficiency. That means one orb = 25 rhino stomps, or 50 iron skins, or 100 rhino charges. With siphon, forget orbs. And even if you have blind rage maxed, you get 74% efficiency anyway. It doesn't solve the problem at all, if anything, it makes it worse.

I say raise the cap to 50, keep streamline as is, and lower fleeting to five ranks, +8 efficiency per rank if that were the case.

However, energy is a precious resource, needed for channeling and QT, which my Valkyr and Loki avid use of. Taking this into consideration, why not:

1) Make efficiency lower as the ability gets more powerful (doubles)

2) Maintain the cap

3) Increase the effectiveness of channeling and QT (this means decreasing the energy drain of melee utility while increasing Focus Energy by 20%, and making QT about 60% more effective).

This allows utility mods requiring energy to be more useful, while also preventing ability spam - but not affecting the current performance of other energy-dependent abilies.

[Zedera]

Oh lord...

 

There was a massive thread on this a few months ago that went horribly the wrong way. I personally agree that power efficiency is so valuable that builds that don't include it are just kidding themselves. The problem is getting the numbers right. DE set an arbitrary limit on how high it can go, and getting rid of the limit and retuning efficiency would just result in another limit, still technically arbitrary, that people would rush for. And if you nerf Streamline and FE a tad too much, then you just render them useless. It's a tricky slider, and though I feel DE has erred too much on one side of the spectrum, you will encounter hordes of people who declare that you are wrong, and that they NEED all the efficiency they can get in order to get through places like T4.

 

But this ties into how abilities themselves are limited. Currently they are only resource limited, with no timers and cooldowns and such for the vast majority of them. This means spamming can and will be done as long as there's energy. Nerfing efficiency doesn't fix any of this.

 

In the end though, there's no reason to argue against being OP. Besides, they help to allow higher levels of Blind Rage to be usable by counteracting its negative effects. More power to you.

[DeathKoala]

Edit: I was mistaken. Ignore me.

Edited July 25, 2014 by DeathKoala

[Stravix]

I am not suggesting a removal of PE, simply a rework as it is the only stat in the game to scale exponetially and as such having it at anything other than maxed is a waste.  Doing so is a mandatory lock of two more mod slots, and with two already locked down with redirection ( or steel fiber if Valkr) and vitality, too many of the mods slots are being filled with needed mods. A simple change to the way PE is handled will make it suefull, without being needed.

[shut]

I've become far too used to having every single one of my abilities available at all times to see an Efficiency-nerfing update without feeling upset about it. XD

But yeah, if it helps the game's balance, then I think it would be better in the long run if efficiency were reduced (e.g. the Fleeting Expertise mod, which is considered by many to be the one mod that destroyed Ability balance the most). Yes, Fleeting already has a tradeoff... but for the ability to have any Ability at your fingertips at virtually all times, the downside is virtually nonexistent. Very few people (besides maximized-Duration Lokis and such) will find another mod more worthy of that slot.

 

 

My biggest gripe, though, is that with higher energy consumption comes more and more reliance on RNG-based blue orb drops. Playing the game prior to U10 was incredibly frustrating because I constantly found myself trying to increase my energy from 0 to 25, only to fail continually and eventually die because I kept getting crappy rolls of the dice-- with absolutely nothing I could do about it. That is not okay.

 

I agree that something needs to be done about ability spamming, but reducing Efficiency is just going to make the game more frustrating and less fair until we see a full-on energy system rework. Not that I'm against Efficiency reductions, mind you-- but it's just that other steps have to be taken beforehand for something of the sort to go over well. xD

 

 

 

EDIT:

TL;DR - Reducing Power Efficiency is needed for balance, but it would cause too much reliance on RNG-based orb drops. We need a reworked, skill/contribution-based Energy system before we can reduce the Efficiency that abilities have.

Edited July 25, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Stravix]

I like this, save one thing: Fleeting, under that system, would give you 99% efficiency. That means one orb = 25 rhino stomps, or 50 iron skins, or 100 rhino charges. With siphon, forget orbs. And even if you have blind rage maxed, you get 74% efficiency anyway. It doesn't solve the problem at all, if anything, it makes it worse.

I say raise the cap to 50, keep streamline as is, and lower fleeting to five ranks, +8 efficiency per rank if that were the case.

However, energy is a precious resource, needed for channeling and QT, which my Valkyr and Loki avid use of. Taking this into consideration, why not:

1) Make efficiency lower as the ability gets more powerful (doubles)

2) Maintain the cap

3) Increase the effectiveness of channeling and QT (this means decreasing the energy drain of melee utility while increasing Focus Energy by 20%, and making QT about 60% more effective).

This allows utility mods requiring energy to be more useful, while also preventing ability spam - but not affecting the current performance of other energy-dependent abilies.

Did you read about changing the calcuations for how PE was handled, +99% PE wouble make 1 energy stomps, it would cause 51 energy stomps...

[KairaSilvermist]

Honestly, MOST of my builds I use Streamline and Flow, over fleeting, because I need duration. IMO, Flow, Streamline, Stretch, and Continuity are all amazing mods, and for most of my frames, I won't touch a corrupted mod. that's not to say I won't touch one ever, my Saryn and Nyx have max efficiency, while my Mirage, Vauban, and Valkyr just have streamline.

 

There's trade-offs, and nerfing something too much, or removing it entirely, have rather negative results for those of us who utilize these. Before you say "not using them is kidding yourself", I play late-game Solo, at *MY* own pace. if the pod goes down in defense, it's *MY* fault. If I run out of Life support, it's *MY* fault. I can explore at my own pace solo, at the cost of only one aura, and a limited number of guns/powers in the group. a Trade-off which, to me, is worth it.

[thececilmaster]

-snip-

so keep power efficiency. and it isnt about just being able to spam abilities. hydroid, nyx, and banshee rely on efficiency now instead of duration for their toggle on/off powers/

This^

 

Also, as stated by others, efficiency isn't on every build (contrary to what you claimed), since Duration and Range are both needed on some builds. for example, my Mirage and my Loki both use high-duration builds for their powers (since, typically, I end up getting all my used power back before the end of the ability's duration). If a rework is to be done, it should affect the abilities themselves - change how using abilities works, in the right way, and we wouldn't have this problem.

[Pandoran_Stallion]

I honestly think efficiency should just be removed. It's too useful a stat to be in the game unless the numbers on Streamline and FE were heavily decreased.

This. I have no qualm with efficiency. I have an issue with it being in the mod system. Efficiency should come as a reward of mastering your frame- 25% every 10 ranks, or 2.5% every level. Mastering your frame does not just mean slightly higher shields that make no difference to level 60 corrupted. It should mean 75% efficiency, 30% power strength, 30% duration, etc. As defaults. That would open space for all four abilities and 'band-aid mods'. Better yet, remove abilities altogether from the mod system, it's restrictive and ruins drop tables.

It's not an issue with balance or efficiency or anything like that. It's an issue with the game's core mechanics. If these things were standard, and builds were almost purely for utility, or generic abilities, or corrupted mods and whatnot, it would balance PvP. It would balance the drop tables. It would balance the mod system and allow us to use utility mods without sacrifices, like DE intended. But we all saw how Steve reacted on the live stream to such a suggestion, so I doubt this is ever going to get fixed, though deep down, I hope he'll go back and fix it.

Edited July 25, 2014 by UpgradeInProgress

[Stravix]

Also, as stated by others, efficiency isn't on every build (contrary to what you claimed), since Duration and Range are both needed on some builds. for example, my Mirage and my Loki both use high-duration builds for their powers (since, typically, I end up getting all my used power back before the end of the ability's duration).

 

But with those abilities you get more time per point of energy by using fleeting, loki can stay perma inviable due to fleeting, Valkrs have 40s+ ults that cost 25 energy becasue of fleeting.  ATM, fleeting isn't the problem per se, it simply made the real problem, how power efficiency is calculated, come to light

Edited July 25, 2014 by Stravix

[Pandoran_Stallion]

Did you read about changing the calcuations for how PE was handled, +99% PE wouble make 1 energy stomps, it would cause 51 energy stomps...

Ah, I must have missed that, thank you! So many essays here, makes it feel like a school night and it's the middle of break .

[Yopee]

Just want to clear up how your system would work before giving my opinion.

 

So with your new efficiency calculation, the maximum possible efficiency with maxed Streamline (30%) and Fleeting Expertise (99%) would be 129%?

An ability that costs 100 energy normally would then cost 43.7 energy?

[Stravix]

Just want to clear up how your system would work before giving my opinion.

 

So with your new efficiency calculation, the maximum possible efficiency with maxed Streamline (30%) and Fleeting Expertise (99%) would be 129%?

An ability that costs 100 energy normally would then cost 43.7 energy?

Yes, that would be correct

[MXultra]

If you cut power efficiency out, you would have to increase energy orb drop rates 6-fold.

 

Consider the situation where high level infested are swarming the pod and you get zapped by a disruptor or eximus. A lot of times the only thing that gets me to the next wave is that I can kill a couple mobs, grab one orb out of the crowd and pop off an emergency ult. This usually doesn't even wipe everyone out, it just momentarily stop the destruction of the pod. If you had to grab 4 orbs at the current drop rate, it'd be over.

[Zeitzbach]

Steamline - FE combo is now dead since Streamline will barely add anything to it.

 

Also, this will just force people to use Rage- Quick thinking - Flow and Equilibrium combo more instead. We will always move from one alternative to another just to abuse this infinite energy for as long as possible.

 

And maybe drop some gears around.

[Stravix]

Steamline - FE combo is now dead since Streamline will barely add anything to it.

 

Also, this will just force people to use Rage- Quick thinking - Flow and Equilibrium combo more instead. We will always move from one alternative to another just to abuse this infinite energy for as long as possible.

 

And maybe drop some gears around.

Streamline would then add just as much as any other basic warframe abilty stat, a linear scaling 30%

[Zeitzbach]

Streamline would then add just as much as any other basic warframe abilty stat, a linear scaling 30%

 

The difference between 100/1.9 and 100/2.2 is only about 7%

 

And it's already half the cost. People will still abuse Rage combo and spam all day. All this really accomplish is to make a mandatory combo weaker while still being mandatory. People will just pop energy gear which will easily take care of the extra 25% required from usual. (Nyx already drop a gear before she absorb anyway, for example).

 

So from a suggestion to nerf a combo from being mandatory, turn into a suggestion that make a mandatory combo mandatory while also forcing players to grind for more gears.

[fatpig84]

If you cut power efficiency out, you would have to increase energy orb drop rates 6-fold.

 

Consider the situation where high level infested are swarming the pod and you get zapped by a disruptor or eximus. A lot of times the only thing that gets me to the next wave is that I can kill a couple mobs, grab one orb out of the crowd and pop off an emergency ult. This usually doesn't even wipe everyone out, it just momentarily stop the destruction of the pod. If you had to grab 4 orbs at the current drop rate, it'd be over.

 

I rather rely on other mechanics for constant energy and health drops. 

Like critical kills, stealth kills etc.

 

The reason why Life strike is so damn popular is because health orbs take forever to drop or you have to use an aura, run nekros or use health restores.

Edited July 25, 2014 by fatpig84

[Yopee]

Hmmm so the new energy costs would then be like 10.9/21.9/32.8/43.7 with a -50% duration drawback for the Streamline + FE combo.

 

I like that FE would be equal with Blind Rage which would allow for some interesting new builds relying on power strength without using insane amounts of energy.

 

I like the fact that FE has a higher price to pay in duration. Min/maxing in a stat requires sacrifice so I like that.

 

But this is only if the ability in question uses duration.

Veteran players who have all mods/frames will probably switch over to using some other frame or ability that can still breeze through the game without using duration. That's bad.

 

New energy costs would be 19.2/38.5/57.7/76.9 for using Streamline only as compared to the current 17.5/35/52.5/70

Players that only use Streamline will suffer a (slightly) higher energy cost. I don't really like this idea because Streamline is not a corrupt mod. It is not really a specialization min/max mod so I don't believe Streamline users should suffer.

But your new energy costs are a very small difference so I think I can let it slide for now.

 

I like your idea of hitting the max efficiency builds that use Fleeting Expertise but veteran players may just switch over to another build rather than sticking with max efficiency+duration and playing by the rules of your new system.

New players trying out max efficiency+duration builds for the first time would likely not stick with it either because it's just not as viable as other max efficiency builds that don't make use of duration or just using Streamline.

We will always move from one alternative to another just to abuse this infinite energy for as long as possible.

That's a very good point.

 

This efficiency nerf might just encourage even more players to polarize their warframe aura slot to - for Energy Siphon and fall back on team energy restores or switch over to health tank frames with Rage and Life Strike.

 

 

tl;dr

Seems to me that in addition to power efficiency, energy sources need to be addressed such as Rage + Life Strike, Energy Siphon, team energy restores. Otherwise, your new system may just bring another new trend of popular frames/abilities/builds rather than promoting equal use of all of them in general.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Yopee

[RealPandemonium]

They should just make powers cheaper and remove efficiency as a stat.  The 25/50/75/100 energy cost paradigm is arbitrary and outdated/inappropriate in many cases in the current game.  Almost everyone runs max efficiency anyway and being able to freely use powers is mostly a good thing.  There would have to be a balance pass but in the end we would have 2 more mod slots and possibly have solved other issues along the way. 

 

Btw, Blind Rage is worth taking on many warframe builds, but usually only at rank 2 to utilize the 15% surplus of FE+ Streamline.  

Edited July 25, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[Semshol]

So, one thing that has been bugging me so far is how the power efficiency stat is currently being handled.  As of right now, both fleeting expertice and streamline have been added to the list of mandatory mods for any mid-late game player.  This is becasue, unlike every other stat modifier in the game, power efficiency scales exponentially instead of linearly.  For example; if you were to add 50% power efficiency you would be able to cast your abilities twice as often, but by adding half more, you can now cast them four times as often. This makes maxing out power efficiency a must for any later build warframe, thus leaving Blind rage with almost no usability.  As it stands a pure power efficiency build will do more damage per energy than a build that has both efficiency mods with both strength mods.  2.20 / 0.65 = 3.52 < 4 = 1 / 0.25

 

This needs to change.  a simple rearrangement of the way power efficiency is calculated could bring power efficiency in line with every other stat.  As is power useage is determined by; Base Cost * (1 - Power Efficiency)

 

In order to make the graph of ability uses per set energy  a linear one one would simply need to modify the equation to be; Base Cost / (1 + Power Efficiency) 

 

If such a change were made two other small changes would also have to be implemented; firstly the arbitrary 75% cap on power efficiency would need to be removed and fleeting expertice should be brought in line numerically with the other corrupted mods at 10 ranks for +9% Efficiency and -5% Duration per rank

 

Any feedback / suggestions / counter-arguements?

 

 

EDIT:  Due to the comments talking about how if DE were to remove PE it would break certain things I say, do you see anything here about removing PE, this is a thread on how to rework to calculations for balance sake, not a rage thread saying that it should be removed. Thank you.

 

I absolutely DISAGREE.

 

Given the fact that we have energy leeching enemies, magnetic guys that completely take you back to 0. Power Efficiency is a survival necessity.

 

You aren't ALWAYS going to have energy drops. You aren't ALWAYS going to have Flow. No matter how much you store, you will run short because enemies can take it all away. Imagine getting disrupted late game with 40+ minutes on the survival clock, NO energy left and you know you can do only one thing. Pray for one energy drop from the next enemy you kill so you can skill and get the crowd back under your control. Without power efficiency, getting your energy taken means you are, in the words of Vor, 'Another dead Tenno'

 

So the only way that PE should change, is if enemies cannot EVER take energy away from you, only then would it make sense to change the mechanics.

 

Clearly you have had zero experience playing ANY late game content. I don't know how many times the entire team has relied upon multiple-casts of my Radial Disarm, followed by Invisibility just to get them through a section. Or when I'm a Nekros and I have to take damage just to resupply my energy for desecrates to resupply my team, because my Shadows need to be kept up so everyone can have a little more space to breathe and recover.

 

So what if Streamline/FE is a mandatory combo. You do realise you don't have to make it mandatory at all? You don't have to hit the 75% cap?

 

I have made plenty of builds that drop my efficiency for even more power (Valkyr, Mag, Ember, just to name a few). Every tool that we have in the game is useful at present and it is about how you use the mechanics that decides whether or not hitting the 75% cap is mandatory.

 

But know this, even if you take PE away, or alter it, or do something to it. Players will find a nice way to abuse it again. That's what we do. We create builds, we work with them and we alter our play-style. That is how a real end-game player or shall I use the word, pro, plays. Enjoy the game, don't sweat the small stuff, don't suggest changes to mechanics, report all detrimental bugs and wait for official instructions.

[NikolaiLev]

But this ties into how abilities themselves are limited. Currently they are only resource limited, with no timers and cooldowns and such for the vast majority of them. This means spamming can and will be done as long as there's energy. Nerfing efficiency doesn't fix any of this.

 

In the end though, there's no reason to argue against being OP. Besides, they help to allow higher levels of Blind Rage to be usable by counteracting its negative effects. More power to you.

 

Spamming can and will be done, but the point is to discourage it by making it a bad idea.  We want some strategy and forethought to be required in the game.

 

And yes, there is reason to argue against being OP.  Because we want variety.  We want there to be a multitude of viable choices so there's build variety instead of just slapping on FE and Streamline, which is an optimal strategy by a disgusting margin.