The Extremely Apologetic Kubrow Thread

[Clawbo]

I do think that DE needs to either lower the upkeep or move the quest to later missions (keep the egg farming on earth for obvious reasons).

 

I don't think the 'new player buys kit with plat and finds out they dun goof'd' argument to be all that sound as stasis does exist, and their DNA does not degrade while they are in stasis. If a player finds out they're in over their head they can (and I know this won't make that player happy) shelve their kubrow until they get to a point where they can afford the upkeep. 

 

A credit sink needs to be tempting. A kubrow credit sink is tempting. The Kubrow slowly dying thing is pretty clearly explained.

 

I too come from the Souls franchise.

 

A better explanation of DNA Degradation would be nice I guess.

 

Buddy, you're missing my point. They CAN and SHOULD implement TEMPTING credit sinks. I know about the lore underlying story on the DNA degradation. Doesn't mean I'm supposed to like it. It's cruel and unnecessarily harsh on players who aren't in the absolute top tier, as you are.

 

Pleased to meet another Souls-ee. "Well! What is it?"

 

It has to do with them being genetically engineered from the ferals on Earth and the technology is still in its incubation stage so... yeah.

 

I'm just saying, perma-death is too harsh. People like you could buy the DNA kits to get even more bang for your buck out of your Kubrow, and players who can't afford them will just have to be more careful or opt to use a Sentinel instead.

[notionphil]

All of you vets out there, remember, you were new at one point too. I respect your dedication to the game, immensely so. But don't condescend others just because they're new. They are starting a brand new journey, one that will enhance their lives. Don't take it away from them.

 

Don't underestimate the value of looking forward to something. While I don't have a particular stance on new player accessibility of Kubrows, I disagree with your central premise.

 

The "I want it now bc it's fun" could be used as an argument to request anything in the game instantly.

 

"Remove Mastery rank, I want Soma now"

 

"Why do I have to use this crappy MK1 Braton, I want Boltor Prime as a starter weapon"

 

Some things in the game are "aspirational" items, which drive player interest and anticipation for what they can expect if they put the time/effort in. WF does not have enough of those. Maybe DE intends Kubrows to be one.

[Clawbo]

You know moving the quest later, keeping the eggs rare, and on earth, but making them tradeable and able to be found without the quest could actually help the economy. Give new players access to a resource that established players want and let some trade help smooth over the new player / old player divide. 

 

That's another very good suggestion. In spirit of alleviating the frustration and helping out the entire playerbase. But you know, for one reason or another the pompous jerk elitists (who are absent from this thread, Gud vare tack) don't want newer players to have Kubrows. That's my biggest gripe with those people. They would not be damaged in any way, only the newer players would have more fun. It's a matter of arrogance mostly, I suppose.

 

Is permadeath really a thing? How does anyone know this? Did DE state this? Enough time hasn't passed yet for anyone to even figure this out. It takes 10 days to go from 100% to -100% since you lose 20% a day. The update hasn't been out for 10 days even. If this is true, then wow. That's a lot of time and effort for your work to permanently disappear in a relatively short period of time. Will wait for the minimum 10 days to pass, and see if someone who rushed their kubrow and never put it stasis and also never used a DNA stabilizer has lost their pet.

 

I do believe it is, please take a gander at my original thread again and follow the links there, I linked the source explaining the permadeath.

 

Or, we could all be dead wrong, but until DE makes an official statement, anything goes. I sincerely hope permadeath isn't a thing. That would actually solve the problem, at least for me. I could make do with being more careful/moving more slowly through missions with my buddy. He's a Sahasa anyway, so direct combat is a no-no for him.

[Clawbo]

Don't underestimate the value of looking forward to something. While I don't have a particular stance on new player accessibility of Kubrows, I disagree with your central premise.

 

The "I want it now bc it's fun" could be used as an argument to request anything in the game instantly.

 

"Remove Mastery rank, I want Soma now"

 

"Why do I have to use this crappy MK1 Braton, I want Boltor Prime as a starter weapon"

 

Some things in the game are "aspirational" items, which drive player interest and anticipation for what they can expect if they put the time/effort in. WF does not have enough of those. Maybe DE intends Kubrows to be one.

 

To be perfectly honest, your post took me by surprise for a second there, but I understand now what you're saying.

 

Perhaps the quest is a teaser for things to come. If so, it's an EXTREMELY bad teaser. It basically makes promises it's not good for. It should span a couple of planets to be a culminative experience that will drive players forward.

 

But yes, I really do understand what you mean. It's what keeps me riveted to the game. Leveling new weapons and 'Frames is an amazing experience, one that I am grateful to be a part of.

[notionphil]

To be perfectly honest, your post took me by surprise for a second there, but I understand now what you're saying.

 

Perhaps the quest is a teaser for things to come. If so, it's an EXTREMELY bad teaser. It basically makes promises it's not good for. It should span a couple of planets to be a culminative experience that will drive players forward.

 

But yes, I really do understand what you mean. It's what keeps me riveted to the game. Leveling new weapons and 'Frames is an amazing experience, one that I am grateful to be a part of.

 

If I am to formulate an opinion on the issue, I would agree that Kubrows should be accessible to early-mid players, with advanced breeding/coloring being expensive to maintain until late game. Ideally it would be a "graduated" reward that "drives players forward" as you said.

 

So in short, the answer to your question of "who suffers by giving new players X" instantly, is "we all do".

 

Because new players now have nothing to look forward to, and old players have "earned" nothing. Everyone loses.

[OniDax]

Is permadeath really a thing? How does anyone know this? Did DE state this? Enough time hasn't passed yet for anyone to even figure this out. It takes 10 days to go from 100% to -100% since you lose 20% a day. The update hasn't been out for 10 days even. If this is true, then wow. That's a lot of time and effort for your work to permanently disappear in a relatively short period of time. Will wait for the minimum 10 days to pass, and see if someone who rushed their kubrow and never put it stasis and also never used a DNA stabilizer has lost their pet.

 

It's called datamining. Anyway, the Kubrows aren't worth the effort. And as a Veteran player, I'll stick to my trusted sentinel. So I'd have to agree with the OP. It'd be better than what we currently have.

[TheErebus.]

This is the first kubrow post I've seen where it hasn't devolved to sentinel vs. kubrow war...

 

I am pleased.

[SquirmyBurrito]

That's another very good suggestion. In spirit of alleviating the frustration and helping out the entire playerbase. But you know, for one reason or another the pompous jerk elitists (who are absent from this thread, Gud vare tack) don't want newer players to have Kubrows. That's my biggest gripe with those people. They would not be damaged in any way, only the newer players would have more fun. It's a matter of arrogance mostly, I suppose.

 

I have honestly never seen anyone who was against new players getting a Kubrow. The stance is always either in favor or indifferent. Worst case scenario the player is like me and wants the credit sink to remain rather than making it easier purely so new players can get a kubrow and maintain it easily. 

 

To be honest, calling players 'pompous jerk elitists' is not the way to sway anyone to your side. Your argument stems from your opinion that Kubrow should be easily maintained by everyone. Theirs stems from the opinion that it has a good balance as is, possible but hard for new players, and another tempting credit sink for older players.

 

 

Buddy, you're missing my point. They CAN and SHOULD implement TEMPTING credit sinks. I know about the lore underlying story on the DNA degradation. Doesn't mean I'm supposed to like it. It's cruel and unnecessarily harsh on players who aren't in the absolute top tier, as you are.

 

Pleased to meet another Souls-ee. "Well! What is it?"

 

It has to do with them being genetically engineered from the ferals on Earth and the technology is still in its incubation stage so... yeah.

 

I'm just saying, perma-death is too harsh. People like you could buy the DNA kits to get even more bang for your buck out of your Kubrow, and players who can't afford them will just have to be more careful or opt to use a Sentinel instead.

 

I agree they should implement more tempting credit sinks. But I don't think they should do so just so they can remove the Kubrow credit sink. 

 

Hahaha

 

Lol I wasn't asking for an explanation, I meant it would be nice for players who are unaware to be better filled in on what they're getting themselves into.

 

Perma death isn't an issue unless you're in a situation like I stated earlier. You have 10 days until your kubrow dies, and you can stop that death at any time by simply freezing the thing.

[DeccanTraps]

This is the first kubrow post I've seen where it hasn't devolved to sentinel vs. kubrow war...

 

I am pleased.

Well its only natural they are compared, they are competing for loadout space. 

[Clawbo]

If I am to formulate an opinion on the issue, I would agree that Kubrows should be accessible to early-mid players, with advanced breeding/coloring being expensive to maintain until late game. Ideally it would be a "graduated" reward that "drives players forward" as you said.

 

So in short, the answer to your question of "who suffers by giving new players X" instantly, is "we all do".

 

Because new players now have nothing to look forward to, and old players have "earned" nothing. Everyone loses.

 

Now I have to take offence here and say that I never wanted new players to be given X immediately. No no, Kubrows are something you need to work for. It's the only way to maintain a connection with them.

 

I'm saying the mechanics of upkeep are too punishing. Basic upkeep to keep your Kubrow from dying should be a slight expense, a sacrifice you'd be more than glad to make. Advanced things should be left to vets like you. I have no qualms with that.

 

But a recurring 100k cost JUST to keep detoriation away... it feels too harsh. That's the bottom line of my argument. Sorry if you disagree with it.

[TheErebus.]

Well its only natural they are compared, they are competing for loadout space. 

Yes but for the most part, it goes into really bad feels throughout the thread. In this one, it's actually very calm here.

 

 

As for the discussion:

I'm the odd one out here:

I personally think it shouldn't be for new players. They can use sentinels up until they hear about or already now of kubrows. Then they have a goal to go for. This would increase the time that they play the game. 

Edited July 25, 2014 by TheErebus

[DeccanTraps]

The argument that they are a valid credit sink, to me, holds no water for established characters either I have to say. Because as we've seen in every other thread complaining about the upkeep all you have to do is run a mission on pluto a few times and you have that much. So its clearly not enough of a credit sink for veterans, not an easy upkeep for new players. It fails how ever you slice it. 

[Clawbo]

I have honestly never seen anyone who was against new players getting a Kubrow. The stance is always either in favor or indifferent. Worst case scenario the player is like me and wants the credit sink to remain rather than making it easier purely so new players can get a kubrow and maintain it easily. 

 

To be honest, calling players 'pompous jerk elitists' is not the way to sway anyone to your side. Your argument stems from your opinion that Kubrow should be easily maintained by everyone. Theirs stems from the opinion that it has a good balance as is, possible but hard for new players, and another tempting credit sink for older players.

 

 

 

I agree they should implement more tempting credit sinks. But I don't think they should do so just so they can remove the Kubrow credit sink. 

 

Hahaha

 

Lol I wasn't asking for an explanation, I meant it would be nice for players who are unaware to be better filled in on what they're getting themselves into.

 

Perma death isn't an issue unless you're in a situation like I stated earlier. You have 10 days until your kubrow dies, and you can stop that death at any time by simply freezing the thing.

 

Never seen anyone against that? Don't know man, I've scoured quite a few threads very similar to this one. I've seen people who vehemently opposed reducing the mainenance cost of Kubrows, for reasons unknown to me.

 

I'm sorry, but it's the only way I can describe them. I can see you're a vet, but you're not condescending. You state your opinions clearly and without raising your tone, as it were. I respect you very much for that. But there are some who would resort to mindless bashing of new players. God only knows why.

 

Oh, I see, my bad. Sorry about that.

 

I know, but DNA integrity detoriates when your pet dies as well. So yeah, some may struggle to keep their Kubrow in tip-top shape. I guess we're just going in circles right about now. Don't know what else to say on the topic, other than the things I expressed before.

 

Also, aren't mods a credit sink as well? I've read somewhere that maxing mods takes millions of credits. And fusion cores are very easy to come by. Why not focus on that? Or is that not good enough?

Edited July 25, 2014 by Clawbo

[rroorr]

I agree completely. I also do not see why would anyone defend the current model, it's like you want to be ripped off just so you can show off in front of new players. Hilarious.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

To be fair, the perma-death thing could more or less be great evidence of trolling and not actual perma-death. If no one confirms this by the time I get the update, I'll let my first little guy degrade.

[LukeAura]

I've been playing a little over a year, mastery rank 11. And I have to say the idea that 'you have to put in effort' is a little bit skewed because of the Sechura comment. Warframe is a game that should encourage players running different missions and experiencing different situations. We should not be forced to grind one mission over and over for an hour for anything. I run around Ceres for challenge, or am levelling weapons for mastery at this point. I am putting in the same effort as someone who grinds Sechura for an hour every twelve days, but I am greatly less rewarded in regards to my Kubrows upkeep because I am not focusing my effort on optimal credit efficiency.
This is the difference between a real life pet, and a Kubrow. My job-running Ceres-and my effort is roughly of the same difficulty and I'm putting in the same effort, so I should be easily able to afford a Kubrow as someone who's 'job' is to farm Sechura, but it's not the case.

Kubrows should be an emotional tie that keeps players hooked in to the game, which means they should be acquirable early on and slowly get stronger as we progress, which means lower credit upkeep(if any) and more hunting and searching for improvements for them. Maybe we can find rarer or stronger mods for them in rare Ceres spawned Kubrow who are tougher, or get them better genes. Maybe we can hunt around in T4 Voids for rare Orokin era genetic imprints to give them golden fur and tougher claws. 

Edited July 25, 2014 by LukeAura

[Clawbo]

I've been playing a little over a year, mastery rank 11. And I have to say the idea that 'you have to put in effort' is a little bit skewed because of the Sechura comment. Warframe is a game that should encourage players running different missions and experiencing different situations. We should not be forced to grind one mission over and over for an hour for anything. I run around Ceres for challenge, or am levelling weapons for mastery at this point. I am putting in the same effort as someone who grinds Sechura for an hour every twelve days, but I am greatly less rewarded in regards to my Kubrows upkeep because I am not focusing my effort on optimal credit efficiency.

This is the difference between a real life pet, and a Kubrow. My job-running Ceres-and my effort is roughly of the same difficulty and I'm putting in the same effort, so I should be easily able to afford a Kubrow as someone who's 'job' is to farm Sechura, but it's not the case.

Kubrows should be an emotional tie that keeps players hooked in to the game, which means they should be acquirable early on and slowly get stronger as we progress, which means lower credit upkeep(if any) and more hunting and searching for improvements for them. Maybe we can find rarer or stronger mods for them in rare Ceres spawned Kubrow who are tougher, or get them better genes. Maybe we can hunt around in T4 Voids for rare Orokin era genetic imprints to give them golden fur and tougher claws. 

 

I didn't make that point. A lot of "veteran players" advocate that approach. I understand why you feel like that. It is unfair, plain and simple.

 

And I completely agree with you on the emotional tie part. And honestly, I have never seen that progression model suggested before. That is brilliant, in my humble opinion. +1 for you sir.

 

EDIT: By God man, please make a thread about that, I am just... wow. I am amazed. The progressive nature you described would be so freaking amazing. It would reinforce the Tenno-Kubrow bond, and it would fit in perfectly with the new quest system. That way, dedicated players could show off their war-hardened, Orokin-enhanced Kubrow.

 

Please make a thread, DE NEEDS to see that.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Clawbo

[notionphil]

Now I have to take offence here and say that I never wanted new players to be given X immediately. No no, Kubrows are something you need to work for. It's the only way to maintain a connection with them.

 

I'm saying the mechanics of upkeep are too punishing. Basic upkeep to keep your Kubrow from dying should be a slight expense, a sacrifice you'd be more than glad to make. Advanced things should be left to vets like you. I have no qualms with that.

 

But a recurring 100k cost JUST to keep detoriation away... it feels too harsh. That's the bottom line of my argument. Sorry if you disagree with it.

 

I don't disagree at all. 100k/every 2 weeks is a punitive cost for anyone besides active late game players. I agree that only the "extra stuff" like special colors etc should incur higher costs/upkeeps. 

[Clawbo]

I don't disagree at all. 100k/every 2 weeks is a punitive cost for anyone besides active late game players. I agree that only the "extra stuff" like special colors etc should incur higher costs/upkeeps.

Exactly. Or get this. We could have an epic quest for Kubrows. Let it begin where it does now. But make it span more planets, besides Venus and Earth. Have the players go into the void for a certain objective, or maybe even as an introduction to the keys and the Void itself. Make the questline challenging and grueling. The end result will be players with an immense appreciation for their doggies. But remove permadeath. I want to enjoy the fruits of my labour, not dread over the thought I might lose him forever. And as the person above us said, let's have personal Kubrow quests that will make them even stronger, with special mods and appearances, that will set apart the most dedicated from the more casual.

[Sirabot]

Signed and agreed 100%. Something needs to change. I, even as a veteran am more inclined to just lock it up in stasis than worrying about how much time has passed until I need to use an DNA Stabilizer. I don't feel like be hassled, even if I am RICH. I have everything there is to have in this game, I only play now to play with my girlfriend and other friends which are pretty new to the game. My enjoyment in this game now is based on their enjoyment. And Kubrows as they are right now, are a pain in the @$$

Edited July 25, 2014 by Sirabot

[SquirmyBurrito]

Never seen anyone against that? Don't know man, I've scoured quite a few threads very similar to this one. I've seen people who vehemently opposed reducing the mainenance cost of Kubrows, for reasons unknown to me.

 

I'm sorry, but it's the only way I can describe them. I can see you're a vet, but you're not condescending. You state your opinions clearly and without raising your tone, as it were. I respect you very much for that. But there are some who would resort to mindless bashing of new players. God only knows why.

 

Oh, I see, my bad. Sorry about that.

 

I know, but DNA integrity detoriates when your pet dies as well. So yeah, some may struggle to keep their Kubrow in tip-top shape. I guess we're just going in circles right about now. Don't know what else to say on the topic, other than the things I expressed before.

 

Also, aren't mods a credit sink as well? I've read somewhere that maxing mods takes millions of credits. And fusion cores are very easy to come by. Why not focus on that? Or is that not good enough?

 

I meant, I've never seen anyone who was against new players having Kubrows. Being opposed to a reduction in cost doesn't mean newer players can't have and maintain a kubrow. It just means they'll have a lot more trouble doing so.

 

Ah okay.

 

Does it? I had no idea. The one time my Kubrow died it stayed dead. Since then I've only ever taken them into missions while I was playing my Frost Prime.

 

Mods only remain a credit sink for as long as you have mods that need leveling. And I have more trouble building up a large quantity of cores than I do credits. I tend to just fuse mod duplicates into other mods because I can take the increase in credit cost, and I have more than enough duplicates. I have two cores right now thanks to the new kubrow mods, but I have 2 million credits. If I could level mods via huge quantities of credits alone, I would do it and it could be a very tempting credit sink (fuse mods with tons of credits, sell for plat).

 

The argument that they are a valid credit sink, to me, holds no water for established characters either I have to say. Because as we've seen in every other thread complaining about the upkeep all you have to do is run a mission on pluto a few times and you have that much. So its clearly not enough of a credit sink for veterans, not an easy upkeep for new players. It fails how ever you slice it. 

 

There are more than two stages of players, and a credit sink does not need to drain your credit wallet.

[LukeAura]

I didn't make that point. A lot of "veteran players" advocate that approach. I understand why you feel like that. It is unfair, plain and simple.

 

And I completely agree with you on the emotional tie part. And honestly, I have never seen that progression model suggested before. That is brilliant, in my humble opinion. +1 for you sir.

 

EDIT: By God man, please make a thread about that, I am just... wow. I am amazed. The progressive nature you described would be so freaking amazing. It would reinforce the Tenno-Kubrow bond, and it would fit in perfectly with the new quest system. That way, dedicated players could show off their war-hardened, Orokin-enhanced Kubrow.

 

Please make a thread, DE NEEDS to see that.

Oh sorry about that, it wasn't a comment made at you in particular about the whole grind Sechura thing. I've just seen it often enough from people who do use it that I needed to address the idea that grinding Sechura constitutes effort to caring for a Kubrow when similarly scaled in difficulty missions do not. 

Thread incoming, I'll have it done some time tonight. I'll link it here and maybe flesh out some more ideas in it(Extracting mutated more-savage genes from dark sector infested Kubrows any one?). 

Edit: And here it is.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/273981-kubrows-a-true-partner/

Edited July 26, 2014 by LukeAura

[DSpite]

I still don't see a problem. This game has not been out that long. There is MMO's out there (and this is NOT an MMO) that throw players into the deep end and watches them die horribly - I'm looking at you EVE Online - but the fact remains that the more things get added over time, the more a new player will be overwhelmed with when he first starts.

 

Fifty frames, Kubrows, Sentinels, Vehicles, upgradable spaceships, multiple stellar systems, Hyperspace, Thirdspace, Nullspace, Specter girlfriends - ok that last one is just something I'd want - but we might end up with a ton more stuff in another year.

 

The fact you can put something on ONE planet or another is irrelevant with a bunch of mates that can jump you around. Mastery Rank is just for laughs when you can rank up reading a book.

 

The fact that a Kubrow might be or not be a hassle to maintain is irrelevant. They have been made that way by design. If DE thinks they have gone too far in one direction will come from their logs showing uptake on Kubrows, not from players saying that they don't have time to maintain them because of RL reasons.

 

Kubrows are an optional game play element. Stating they don't fit "your" idea of balanced is irrelevant. It would be nice to hear the exact thoughts of what DE wanted when they made them, but what if they did come out and say that they DID want them to a very hard to maintain play element? Will there still be complaints of "well, that's not good enough they should be easier"?

 

I keep seeing "Kubrows are a pain in the &#!", well, the simple solution is, don't play that game element. Not all content in a game is meant for everyone, especially when we as a player base are NOT paying monthly fees to speed up changes in the game.

[LukeAura]

Kubrows are an optional game play element. Stating they don't fit "your" idea of balanced is irrelevant. It would be nice to hear the exact thoughts of what DE wanted when they made them, but what if they did come out and say that they DID want them to a very hard to maintain play element? Will there still be complaints of "well, that's not good enough they should be easier"?

The initial design of damage 2.0 was changed before even implementation because DEs design was flawed. So just because they say 'it's their design', doesn't mean it's right and can't be changed by the community. 

And then the number of people bothering with Kubrows after that statement would determine whether or not they are right in that statement, no forum outcries required(They'll probably still exist). They invested a lot of time and effort in to Kubrows, if they end up only being used by a small part of the community because they're so difficult to maintain, likely they will get changed. 

 

[Viverim]

That's why DE should change the boss fight required to get the kubrow to the hyena pack. Not the jackal.

#1 - had the quest dropped from the Hyena Pack, I would not currently own one.  I hate the Hyena fight, and I will not do it for new content.  I may be alone, but then again, I may not.

 

#2 - Pushing the Kubrow further into the game simply denies new players access.  This does not encourage people to stay.  Too much grindiness required = a portion of the new players go to play things that reward you for playing, as opposed to saying "Oh look!  You can have this if youstick around for a few months!"

 

#3 - Create a credit sink for Vets.  Really?  And most vets say they can earn 100k in an afternoon.  So... exactly how does this hamper most vets at all?  If it is intended to reduce the credits veterans have, then it is a failed mechanic.  It only penalizes new players for having a key feature of the update.  You might just as soon lock it behind Mastery Level 10. 

 

If you wanted my thoughts on the subject, the cost for maintenance should be lowered to around 50,000 creds.  This is enough of a burden for new players that they can meet it while still leveling gear.  As noted earlier, Vets can earn as much credits as they want.  Nothing short of a ridiculous number is going to deter them, so making a discussion over credit sinks for Vets is pointless.

 

 

Good original post.  Nice attention to detail and a very thought out discussion.