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Feedback: Runner Stunlock needs to go. Negative Gameplay.


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Posted (edited)

DISCLAIMER DUE TO PEOPLE MISREADING THE POST.

This is not "Runners are hard and I have problems dealing with them."

This is "Runners are negative gameplay taking away player control, making them unengaging and annoying."

__________________________________

Oh hai,

The problem is not that they are not survivable. Runners hardly do any damage, other than smear my screen with their intestines. The problem is that they are negative gameplay. Because they explode in sequences as they get through the crowd, Runners can put you in a stunlock that you have almost no way of getting out of until they all popped. Such a stun sequence can go on for easily 15 seconds, if there is a huge blob.

15 seconds that I cannot control my character, repeatedly through a level, cause negative gameplay. They take away from choice, disable my character and all I can do is sit there and hope that there is a split-second between their explosions. I highly recommend revising them.

For example, give them more damage, but take the stun away. The stun is equal to a critical hit stagger on mobs, it seems - almost no one else can inflict that state, and if, they are singular enemies - not a chain of 15 or so. Another option would be obscuring vision - cover the screen with slime.

But the negative gameplay needs to go, or it will always evoke these feelings of bleak sighs once you are in stunlock again. It's not theatening, unless you are fresh out of the gate. It doesn't kill you. It just annoys you. And that is not a good design element. ;)

Edited by Ced23Ric
Posted

No, just no. Runners do give a good gameplay. You need to actually be aware of them and dodge them to avoid getting stunlocked while the horde of mobs just melee you down.

That 15sec stunlock is nothing you say? That 15sec is potentially can cause your death.

Posted

I have to agree with Sikab... They're an enemy that serve a role, just like any other. If you manage to get caught in such a large herd of them you must be doing something wrong.

Posted (edited)

Exploders could use an addition of explosion damage so infested other than ancients actually pose a threat other than running out of bullets

Edited by havox2
Posted

Staggers are apparently an Infested thing, since Ancients and Runners can both inflict them.

Regarding Runners = bad gameplay: higher ground > Infested. Bullets work pretty well too. If you can 1-shot the standard Infested mooks quick enough, melee is uber effective against Runners.

Definitely a fan of buffing Runner damage though.

Posted

I was thinking that Chargers need to actually do some damage, so when runners, crawlers or noxious crawlers stun/slow/immobilize you, you can actually die.

Sword attacks are extremely effective against Runners because they don't pop when chopped in two, they'll pop if you blow them away with a gun so that makes melee attacks my go to means of dealing with most of the medium sized infected.

Posted (edited)

No, just no. Runners do give a good gameplay. You need to actually be aware of them and dodge them to avoid getting stunlocked while the horde of mobs just melee you down. That 15sec stunlock is nothing you say? That 15sec is potentially can cause your death.

I have to agree with Sikab... They're an enemy that serve a role, just like any other. If you manage to get caught in such a large herd of them you must be doing something wrong.

You misunderstand me.

I don't have a problem with any mob in this game, including the bosses. I can just mow those guys down with my firearms with thinking about it twice. But that is me, and not someone who just started the game and meets these guys for the first time. Also, you may not know what positive and negative gameplay is.

Positive gameplay is, when an environmental event gives you more to do than before. For example, explosive containers are not just obstacles in the world, you can also interact with them by shooting them for AoE fire damage. Positive gameplay. Negative gameplay is an environmental event that limits or nullifys your options. For example, if a boss had Radial Disarm and would take your primary and secondary away, that would force you into melee and abilities as your only ways of harming him. That is negative gameplay.

Runners are negative gameplay. They take away your control of your character, don't allow you to shoot, disrupt ground-slams, disrupt escape rolls, disrupt reloads, and they can chain their effect regardless of your level and shield. Their attack is a limiting mechanic, which takes away control from the player, and in adrenalin-rich situations, a few seconds can be a lifetime of frustration, due to relative perception of time. Not because you die, again, but because you are denied control over your character. You can try this out pretty easy yourself - roll Mag, join some games and randomly use "Pull" on other players. See how long it takes for them to curse at you. Losing control over your character due to some external impulse that you cannot interact with is annoying - and negative gameplay.

Trust me, this is not some chum complaining how hard the game is - this is thought-out analytical feedback. I am rank 8 in the killboards right now, and if several people wouldn't grind the hell out of Hades (see what I did there?) with Overload to powerlevel new frames, I'd still be at 5, too. I have all frames but Loki at 30. I have all melee weapons, including boss drops from Pluto and Jupiter built and ready to go, played with all rifles, all pistols but Bolto. I am quite aware of how this game works. I am not asking for help, and I am not asking for explanations on how I should tackle Runners. I know.

PS: A common situation where you face many Runners at once are Infestation Defense missions.

Exploders could use an addition of explosion damage so infested other than ancients actually pose a threat other than running out of bullets

More damage I can more than welcome. Right now, Infested are way to weak.

Staggers are apparently an Infested thing, since Ancients and Runners can both inflict them.

Definitely a fan of buffing Runner damage though.

Staggers are fine if used in a way that can a) be dodged and b) is special. You cannot dodge an AoE bubble. There is no direction, other than away, you could go. And if you don't go fast enough, you are caught in a sequence of staggers, which makes it a common occurence, and not special, but annoying.

Damage up: Yay! I even say, give them more speed, allow them to jump up ledges, have them crawl on the ceilings! That is all engaging, positive gameplay. It would open up another dimension of sector scanning. But the sequenced stunlock is annoying.

Edited by Ced23Ric
Posted

Rarely have any problems with them. Maybe 2-3 can pop on me, and that´s already much.

I do however agree on more damage to them BUT they should also effect other infested as well!

Posted

Rarely have any problems with them.

That's not the topic. Like I said before - they are not a threat. The problem is, they are negative gameplay. They take away player control, in sequences, on trash mobs, over and over again, maing this mechanic not special, but annoying.

Added a diclaimer for future posters to the OP.

Posted

That's not the topic. Like I said before - they are not a threat. The problem is, they are negative gameplay. They take away player control, in sequences, on trash mobs, over and over again, maing this mechanic not special, but annoying.

Added a diclaimer for future posters to the OP.

Yeah i know, just wrote mine while you posted the long one ;)

Posted

He's already stated that his problem with them is not the difficulty. I don't mind them from a design standpoint myself. The 15 second stunlocks are pretty rare, can only think of a couple times when it's seemed excessive. You can dodge them by the way, they have a lengthy animation they go through before they blow up.

My problem with them is that currently they don't serve a purpose because even if they do stun you, the leapers and chargers can't damage you in any significant way.

Posted

Agreed. It's ridiculous/tiresome/annoying/descriptor-of-choice that they can just lock you up for that long, even if the mob of runners and chargers can't actually do anything to really hurt you. I have 700~ odd shields on my Loki now, so Infested are really only a risk if I run into multiple Ancients simultaneously. Especially Disruptors. Oh dear, there goes all my Energy again. :(

Four things I'd do to Runners;

1) Make it so standard melee swipes can interrupt the self-destruct windup, just like enemies can stagger/interrupt you. Simple but effective.

2) Make it so the self-destruct staggers (and damages) nearby Infested too. I blasted one in the head about five minutes ago with my Lex; the death-explosion did enough damage to pop a cargo canister it was standing next to, but didn't even slow his two buddies down. This would make hosing down mobs infinitely more fun.

3) Make it so Runners can't detect and start a warmup when you're cloaked next to them. No other Infested can detect and attack through cloak, so it's a bit silly. Also mildly annoying sometimes. This is mostly for stealth-capable frames though.

4) Reduce the radius of the explosion by a meter, maybe a meter-and-a-half, tops. It's comically oversized at the moment, as it seems to regularly catch me from distances that suggest I really ought to be out of the blast radius. That, or make the explosion visuals more accurately represent the size of the blast.

Posted (edited)

@Sealgaire: I am also aware of the animation. Even if there is a precursor to their suicidal attack, they have a core problem that builds on their one and only attack.

Runners walk to you and try to trigger their suicide bomb. If you kill them before, they have, up until now, done nothing but soak up a few bullets, but at least you got some XP. If you don't kill them, they cancel all your actions and stun you - and take the kill XP with them. So, not only do they nullify player's actions, they also stun him in the process, and then, their only attack also means that the player misses out on XP.

At the end of the day, Runners are probably the least engaging enemy of Warframe, because any interaction with them is negative (in the sense of gameplay denial or even gameplay reversal), save for one.

Edited by Ced23Ric
Posted

Being stunlocked is not fun. Player should not have control taken away from them for extended periods of time. They don't present a threat to me personally but when I join a level and it's all laggy, and stuff is teleporting till it starts to settle down, and I get bombarded by a ton of these guys is just annoying.

Posted (edited)

You misunderstand me.

I don't have a problem with any mob in this game, including the bosses. I can just mow those guys down with my firearms with thinking about it twice. But that is me, and not someone who just started the game and meets these guys for the first time. Also, you may not know what positive and negative gameplay is.

Positive gameplay is, when an environmental event gives you more to do than before. For example, explosive containers are not just obstacles in the world, you can also interact with them by shooting them for AoE fire damage. Positive gameplay. Negative gameplay is an environmental event that limits or nullifys your options. For example, if a boss had Radial Disarm and would take your primary and secondary away, that would force you into melee and abilities as your only ways of harming him. That is negative gameplay.

Runners are negative gameplay. They take away your control of your character, don't allow you to shoot, disrupt ground-slams, disrupt escape rolls, disrupt reloads, and they can chain their effect regardless of your level and shield. Their attack is a limiting mechanic, which takes away control from the player, and in adrenalin-rich situations, a few seconds can be a lifetime of frustration, due to relative perception of time. Not because you die, again, but because you are denied control over your character. You can try this out pretty easy yourself - roll Mag, join some games and randomly use "Pull" on other players. See how long it takes for them to curse at you. Losing control over your character due to some external impulse that you cannot interact with is annoying - and negative gameplay.

Trust me, this is not some chum complaining how hard the game is - this is thought-out analytical feedback. I am rank 8 in the killboards right now, and if several people wouldn't grind the hell out of Hades (see what I did there?) with Overload to powerlevel new frames, I'd still be at 5, too. I have all frames but Loki at 30. I have all melee weapons, including boss drops from Pluto and Jupiter built and ready to go, played with all rifles, all pistols but Bolto. I am quite aware of how this game works. I am not asking for help, and I am not asking for explanations on how I should tackle Runners. I know.

PS: A common situation where you face many Runners at once are Infestation Defense missions.

More damage I can more than welcome. Right now, Infested are way to weak.

Staggers are fine if used in a way that can a) be dodged and b) is special. You cannot dodge an AoE bubble. There is no direction, other than away, you could go. And if you don't go fast enough, you are caught in a sequence of staggers, which makes it a common occurence, and not special, but annoying.

Damage up: Yay! I even say, give them more speed, allow them to jump up ledges, have them crawl on the ceilings! That is all engaging, positive gameplay. It would open up another dimension of sector scanning. But the sequenced stunlock is annoying.

Still think Runners are not negative gameplay. Just Tap once that shift button to dodge and you don't lose yoru control over your Char, even if the explosion if point blank. If you know this, can't understand how you can complain.

It is a good gaming experience cause it makes you use an actual ability, instead just LMB.

You say you have no problem gunning down Runners, while you also said they stun-lock you. Huh?

Being stunlocked is not fun. Player should not have control taken away from them for extended periods of time. They don't present a threat to me personally but when I join a level and it's all laggy, and stuff is teleporting till it starts to settle down, and I get bombarded by a ton of these guys is just annoying.

Tap Shift + Direction you want to roll to... Stun is evaded. If you are not aware of your sorroundings and get stun-locked... jokes on you.

Infection is the easyest faction in the game, yet ppl complain about a mechanic, which is 100% evadeable.....

Edited by Sikab
Posted

Still think Runners are not negative gameplay.

You can think that, but it doesn't change the fact that it is, by it's very definition, negative gameplay. You still don't seem to understand what the term means. Negative gameplay is mechanics that limit, nullify or block other gameplay elements directly. There is no mentioning of quality or functionality. Just that it does take something away or limits it. And while you can think that a stunlock is not, it still is. :)

If you know this, can't understand how you can complain.

Infection is the easyest faction in the game, yet ppl complain about a mechanic, which is 100% evadeable.....

Mechanic annoying. Mechanic not cool. Don't like mechanic. Give feedback.

Buddy, I know you think you have it figured out and the others must be to dumb to get it, because Infestation is easy and only idiots would complain about them. But you got it all wrong. I am not complaining about how difficult they are, or how they pose a challenge, or how they always get me, or how they ruin my life, or whatever. They are not. I am complaining about a mechanic that does not enrichen, but limit the gameplay, and I am asking for a variation of this mechanic aslong as it is spammed as it is in its current state. This is no "OMG gam to hard fix DE or i quit!1112" post. You should be able to gather as much. I am delivering feedback on a game mechanic here.

Posted

Sooner or later players will complain about stunlock. At least it's not a range attack (remind me of the Geth stunlock from ME3MP).

Yes, stunlock is bad and with the runner, letting one explode means lots of explosion to follow.

Solution : Stunlock cooldown - add an invulnerability period (against stun, not damage) after the explosion, 1 second is enough so that player can take action to save himself from the massive bombing fest.

Posted

Ced23 overall m8 the infected are not even a challenge there more of a annoyance , runners especially

That is exactly, to the point, boiled down in mildly dyslexic script, what I said, Dibbz. ;)

Runners are annoying because of the stunlock mechanic as their only attack. Annoying. Annoying as in, no engaging and fun, but annoying.

Posted (edited)

terrible topic -_-

"You can think that, but it doesn't change the fact that it is, by it's very definition, negative gameplay. You still don't seem to understand what the term means. Negative gameplay is mechanics that limit, nullify or block other gameplay elements directly."

Could say the exact same thing to you mate.

For some odd reason you think your point of view is absolute, and others should stfu if they don't agree with your point. But i guess you are the type person who will cry about something else if this topic gets ignored.

Indeed what you say about negative gameplay is true.

BUT.

Runners are not negative: You can completely (let me use your choice fo word) Nullify the Runner ability Hence it's not negative, it's a "skill check" mechanics.

If there is a counter to it for every class (warframe), it's not negative.

On the other hand (just to make an example for you).

General Sargas Ruk

^This guy is the example of the Negative experience, no option to counter it's dmg reflect debuff* ability. You just stand there, hide behind a wall, hope his shield won't regen, or wont coem for you to chaingun you down. That's negative, you can't do anything against it.

Runners counter is 1 button press for every class.

Adapt to the game, instead of trying to dumb it down.

Edited by Sikab
Posted

For some odd reason you think your point of view is absolute, and others should stfu if they don't agree with your point. But i guess you are the type person who will cry about something else if this topic gets ignored.

I'll ask you to kindly leave if you cannot see how a common ground of term definition is necessary for a debate (a debate I did not ask for, as this is Feedback to the devs, by the way). I am not crying, I am explaing an analyzed aspect of the game which led me to give feedback on a mechanic that has "negative gameplay" properties.

You can completely (let me use your choice fo word) Nullify the Runner ability Hence it's not negative, it's a "skill check" mechanics. If there is a counter to it for every class (warframe), it's not negative.

You still don't seem to understand the term "negative gameplay". It does not mean bad, wrong, false, overpowered, too hard or anything like that. It means that this mechanic eliminates and/or nullifies gameplay. Runner Stunlock takes away character control, cancels out ground-slams, charge attacks, reloads and because of it's sequential nature due to Runners pouring in one by one, does so for a prolonged amount of time, over and over again. It does not happen once or only on special minibosses, such as the Disrupters or Healers, it happens at every corner, with every Infested group spawning.

And even so that a counter exists, it has no 100% chance of avoidance, simply because they might come from behind, around corners, etc. Once the chain started, you can be stunlocked for a few of them, and that is annoying. No bad, wrong, false, overpowered, too hard or anything else - it is annoying, because it is unengaging. I am not even at the point where avoidance is a topic anymore - I am at the point where the stunlock chain has started.

General Sargas Ruk

^This guy is the example of the Negative experience, no option to counter it's dmg reflect debuff* ability. You just stand there, hide behind a wall, hope his shield won't regen, or wont coem for you to chaingun you down. That's negative, you can't do anything against it.

Sargas Ru itself is not the problem, Bullet Attractor is. (PS: This is also why Warframe makes for a poor PvP basis.) Bullet Attractor in the hands of the enemies makes for negative gameplay, because the only successful engagement is avoidance - killing is not an option, because the carrier cannot be quickly dispatched. You have found another thing that is "negative gameplay", worthy of change. Good job - how about you start a feedback thread about it?

By the way, a "negative experience" is entirely subjective. You might find him hard, I find him challenging and thusly engaging. Who is wrong? No one. You have your opinion and I have mine. Nevertheless, Bullet Attractor is negative gameplay in the hands of AI. It limits you to running away or kills you. That part is not subective, because "negative gameplay" has a definition.

Adapt to the game, instead of trying to dumb it down.

I am not dumbing the game down. I am giving feedback on a "negative gameplay" mechanic that has a carrier in the form of a reoccuring mass-spawn, making the procs of this mechanic very high, leading to annoyance instead of enjoyment. Or should I say that you should just adapt to Sargas Ruk and stop "crying" about him? No, that would be both uncalled for and pointless, because we would be argueing about personal predispositions, preferences and perceptions. And that is, by nature of those aspects, a discussion that cannot come to a cordial conclusion.
Posted

I think the melee stun of infested in general puts them in a very difficult spot to balance. If you give them better attacks then they could just stunlock people and kill them before they can do anything. Yet if you don't buff them to have better attacks then they'll rarely be a threat and will be boring in a lack of challenge. I think a system should be looked into where players build a resistance to stuns on consecutive stuns and after getting stunned so long they are immune to stuns for a short duration. This way you can retain the effectiveness of stuns and add damage on top of it without worrying about players dying without the ability to do anything (dieing from lack of control is pretty much never fun and should always be given some concern).

Posted (edited)

Never been stun locked, i gotten hit with one explosion at most.

You know what i did the first time i saw a bunch of enemies running straight at me? I ran away. Why? Cause i figured they were going to melee to death so i evaded them. After i finally figured out their method of attack what i do now is remember the layout of the room i just passed so if they pop in, in the room i am going in instead of simply fighting them there i back out to give myself more room for evading.

I also use the jump slash attack cause that stuns enemies so i get revenge by stunk locking them!

Edited by Mak_Gohae

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