What Is The Purpose Of Enemy Sucking Enemies In An Energy Based Game?

[magusat999]

I was testing some changes to Loki, and as I recall T1 Exterminate is quite easy, so I used that to test out my configuration. To my unpleasant surprise and chagrin, I found it not to be the greatest place to test his abilities because I ran into no less than 4 energy sucking enemies. Why so many? It seems designed so that as soon as I got to about 160 energy, or collected a bunch of energy in one whop - I turn a corner and get all of it sucked out. I don't know 100% how these enemies work, but I look on my mini-map or most times I can see in-game that the enemy is far away. I get that "purple glow" and I'm like "Oh, snap..." Get to running the other way - but the purple glow just lays on you like a flux rifle from a Flux Crewman.... What is the RANGE?  Seems to be whatever range sucks your energy away - I run past the initial approach range and its still there???? That is really irritating and unpredictable. running across the entire level sometimes is not far enough - and that's not even when the enemy is moving.

 

After the first awful experiment, I put Energy Siphon on and that is where as I mention the Energy Suckers just started flowing in. The first was with another Aura mod, they took my energy away less frequently (I wonder why???) but that was good enough to put me in the same situation as I was not regenerating energy.

 

I think that the energy sucking enemies need to be scaled back. 4+ in T1 Exterminate... way too much. It should not be made as a way to keep you from having any energy throughout the mission (What's the point of having abilities, if we cannot use them? - if that was the case I'd just play Call of Duty...). I really don't think they have that much of a place in Warframe - what is he purpose? To just generally screw the game up? And why don't you make a specific enemy, with a specific warning (cry, roar, etc.) Instead of having ANY enemy just turn purple and hide crouched in a corner waiting for you to slide through? Where is the chance for avoidance? I just do not see a meaningful game purpose for those things besides just making players vulnerable to kill off easier. DE_Steve talked about "Survive-ability" - well what is the survive-ability aspect of getting all of your energy sucked out amongst a crowd of heavily armored enemies that can tear through you naked life and health in sometimes one shot? taking our energy away is cheap - false difficulty because nobody relies on base levels - Rhino uses Iron Skin, Mirage uses Hall of Mirrors, Loki uses Invisibility / Radial Disarm, etc. You don't strip away energy 4+ times (or repeatedly) in a level, we need that to ... SURVIVE!!! 

 

I'm sure people are going to chime in who "love the challenge" but for me I do not care for it and I cannot think of a reason to have any enemy that sucks away ALL of your energy, life or anything else for that matter... SOME I can tolerate, but suck it all away? Not cool, not cool at all. They should also be limited to no more than ONE per mission, except for Survive, where even then they should not be popping up every 10 seconds (I'd limit them to once per 15 minutes of survival - and give people time to interact with VOR, not show up 5 seconds before Vor (or at the same time).

 

Basically this whole energy sucking thing is sucking the fun out of Warframe... the idea to put them in... sucks.

 

EDIT: Here is a pic of me playing T1 Elimination, see the dead Corrupted? See the other one? The dead one was just standing on the other side of the door just like the living one there and WOULD NOT BUDGE. You know how you can jump on the top of the center area and take the elevator inside? Well, the dead one had energy drain and so I couldn't get close without losing my energy pool. I put a decoy near him and he still wouldn't react - just stood there blocking the whole corridor off, with his energy drain soaking up the whole area that I needed to pass through. Note that I couldn't get close enough to get an aim on him (around a corner). It took at least 15 minutes for him to make a move that allowed me to get to him. Its like they have AI that has them lay there and wait for you to come into sucking range - CHEAP.

 

Edited July 27, 2014 by magusat999

[Somedude1000]

Well, I guess they're put there as an additional challenge in game, and maybe also to encourage you to use both your weapons AND your abilities. Just be lucky we don't have weapon jamming enemies yet >.<

[warthogger14]

The fact you need energy to survive a T1 ext made me sad

At the moment it woulld be a waste of time for them to figure out a way to limit 1 energy leader spawn in a Random Spawn system

[AbaliskInfinite]

RNG determines spawns, unfortunately.

 

So you can go through a mission and get 0 leech energy enemies, or get 15 of the buggers.

[(PSN)CrimsonShinku]

energy draining enemies are ok since they-re gradual, but those that zero your energy instantly just by getting close are beyond annoying and i-d go as far as call them fake difficulty. especially when several start to spawn. some frames NEED the energy to survive like vauban, loki, or if you-re running a quickthinking set.

 

and since they jam you on top you can-t even drop an energy restore.

[magusat999]

Well, I guess they're put there as an additional challenge in game, and maybe also to encourage you to use both your weapons AND your abilities. Just be lucky we don't have weapon jamming enemies yet >.<

 

I already addressed that response in my OP: "I'm sure people are going to chime in who "love the challenge" but for me I do not care for it and I cannot think of a reason to have any enemy that sucks away ALL of your energy, life or anything else for that matter... SOME I can tolerate, but suck it all away? Not cool, not cool at all. They should also be limited to no more than ONE per mission, except for Survive, where even then they should not be popping up every 10 seconds (I'd limit them to once per 15 minutes of survival - and give people time to interact with VOR, not show up 5 seconds before Vor (or at the same time)."

 

The fact you need energy to survive a T1 ext made me sad

At the moment it woulld be a waste of time for them to figure out a way to limit 1 energy leader spawn in a Random Spawn system

My first statement was "I was testing some changes to Loki..." So what do you think that means? PERHAPS it means he wasn't full level yet and not ready for direct combat? And your comment misses the whole point of my post anyway, the post isn't about the viability of a frame to make it in T1, its about way too many energy sucking Eximus in an average mission. the "Loki in T1" part just sets up the comment to give people a picture of what I am talking about (which is common in writing).

 

energy draining enemies are ok since they-re gradual, but those that zero your energy instantly just by getting close are beyond annoying and i-d go as far as call them fake difficulty. especially when several start to spawn. some frames NEED the energy to survive like vauban, loki, or if you-re running a quickthinking set.

 

and since they jam you on top you can-t even drop an energy restore.

This^^^ (but they are not gradual, btw - all of them immediately suck all of your energy in one whop...). Wholeheartedly agree.

[Phatose]

Preventing degenerate tactics like Loki constant invisiblity, while simultaneously vastly increasing the importance of situational awareness is their purpose. 

 

Energy isn't actually necessary to survive, and forcing players to not rely solely on specific abilities to survive is a positive attribute.  Adjust your tactics and your loadout, and you'll be fine. 

[warthogger14]

I simply misinterpreted the start for the first part of the comment, calm down

as for the second part I meant it, enemies and leaders are all randomly spawned and finding a way to limit just the energy type is of no concern anytime soon I'm sure

And as Phatose said energy is not needed to survive, learn to survive without it

...and DODGE!

[Adenela]

you think thats energy they're draining? A frost without energy is just a reskin of rhino. they are draining YOUR IDENTITY D:

Edited July 28, 2014 by lkkie

[Varlu]

Preventing degenerate tactics like Loki constant invisiblity, while simultaneously vastly increasing the importance of situational awareness is their purpose. 

 

Energy isn't actually necessary to survive, and forcing players to not rely solely on specific abilities to survive is a positive attribute.  Adjust your tactics and your loadout, and you'll be fine. 

And how are fragile warframe supposed to survive? Running and taking cover?

[vaugahn]

For the same reason they have enemies that drain your health. It's to punish you for making mistakes, just in a different way. There are plenty of games with enemies that drain stamina, mana, energy or whatever else, it's pretty standard enemy design. 

[D3ST]

I feel u bro.

Absolutly HATE the energy draining Eximus units, they ruin the game for me,

whats worse, is that they suck your energy through an Aura now, so theres NO WAY IN HELL, you can actually avoid it now, they even do it through walls /celings,

 

so yeah its just a tremendous bad mechanic, that needs to be eleminated from the game ASAP..

And dont even get me started on the Infected, they can actually suck u dry every 30 Secs now..

[magusat999]

Warframe has characters (called Warframes, duhh) who have abilities for a reason. The game is designed around the characters AND THEIR ABILITIES. If you don't like abilities and think they make the game less of a challenge then maybe you should play Call of Duty so you don't have to worry about having abilities. I wonder why some people are even plauying since they despise the very heart of the game so much. But those people are a vocal minority. You can look up videos of people who LOVE WARFRAME, LOVE EVERY ASPECT ABOUT IT, and GLORIFY THE USE OF ABILITIES - even to PRO LEVELS. THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE I CONSIDER THE TRUE DEDICATED WARFRAME PLAYERS - not the ones who want to tear down everything good about it... for example: 

 

Preventing degenerate tactics like Loki constant invisiblity, while simultaneously vastly increasing the importance of situational awareness is their purpose. 

 

Energy isn't actually necessary to survive, and forcing players to not rely solely on specific abilities to survive is a positive attribute.  Adjust your tactics and your loadout, and you'll be fine. 

Degenerate tactics? Sounds like you just have a dislike for  ABILITIES. Your comment is very generic, I'm specifically talking about a Warframe mechanic, and what you are saying does not apply to Waframe. This thread is not about "game philosophy" or your - or my, opinions of game mechanics in a general nature. It is a very specific circumstance I am speaking on, which has gone way too far and needs adjustment.

 

I sorry you do not like Loki, but the comment MENTIONS LOKI and uses him as an example - don't get STUCK ON THE EXAMPLE. It isn't about Loki - its about Warframes needing energy, and do not lie to me, yourself and everyone else and pretend this is Call of DUty where the enemy is just another being the same as you. Don't pretend that without energy you can duck and dodge your way through 50 waves, T4 Elimination, 60 minutes (even 10) of Survival - your just spitting your general philosophy on action games, and it sounds like you don't have a clue what Warframe is about. SHow me how you make it with no energy, no abilites and just "adjust your loadout and tactics" on video or stop with that general game philosophy bs. There is a topic to this discussion and it is not a general discussion, it is very specific and your comment makes no sense in that parameter.

 

And further - there IS NO MECHANIC FOR SITUATIONAL AWARENESS - they hide and ambush you. You have NOTHING that can point out "AT XY Coordinates there is an energy sucking Eximus". Play the game and you will see. Show me your advanced "tactics" on video...

 

 

I simply misinterpreted the start for the first part of the comment, calm down

as for the second part I meant it, enemies and leaders are all randomly spawned and finding a way to limit just the energy type is of no concern anytime soon I'm sure

And as Phatose said energy is not needed to survive, learn to survive without it

...and DODGE!

 

The "...and DODGE!" comment revealed that you have no idea what you are talking about. Show me your video of you dodging enemies at 30 minutes of T4 SUrvival. Let me see you even dodge your way to victory in T4 Elimination - can I see your video? YOURS, not someone else's (which you won't find anyway). Every video you see of people surviving and solo playing high level attributes it to  MOD setup, lots of FORMA, highly modded Weapons, AND freely being able to perform their abilities. The reason is without your abilities you won't last AT ALL. Warframe is not a game designed for you to be weak and make it. It is DESIGNED to use abilities.

 

Another thing about saying "duck and dodge" is - have you ever heard of "Hitscan"? Hit scan is a nice way of saying "Perfect Aim". The enemy WILL hit you. you cannot duck and dodge hit scan - this is not Splinter Cell. there is no cover mechanic. And hiding doesn't work because the AI is designed to find you if you make any noise whatsoever (so much for Ninja, eh?). What are you going to do - hide your enemies to death... I guarantee you that doesn't work.

 

For the same reason they have enemies that drain your health. It's to punish you for making mistakes, just in a different way. There are plenty of games with enemies that drain stamina, mana, energy or whatever else, it's pretty standard enemy design. 

Another general game statement. this is Warframe, not "plenty of other games". ANd for the record I haven't played a game yet that sucked everything you need away mercilessly. If this was Fallout it would be like your surrounded by 20 Death Claws and an "Eximus Gun Eating Death Claw" slops up all your weapons. Just like Warframe is dependent on energy, Fallout has you dependent on GUNS. And just like Warframe, without guns in Fallout those Death Claws have you where they want you (on the dinner plate) - in Warframe without energy you are DEAD, I don't care how "elite" you are or how many Founder's Packs you purchased, you'll be an elite, dead Founder... I challenge you to show me 30 minutes of ANY VOID SURVIVAL that says otherwoise - put your theory to practice and show us all how to make it in this "standard game" with "standard game tactics". Can you make a video of you soloing T1, T2, T3, T4 for 30 minutes with no abilities (no passive ones either) - just "ducking and dodging?" Maybe you already did one? Where is the link to the upload?

 

SO... Here is a little more illustration of what I mean. You cannot duck and dodge something that hides until you turn the corner. Here is another Void run I was doing, If you actually know anything about this enemy you would know better than to say it can be easily avoided.

 

Here is one of the areas one came running at me from, the other side is a DEAD END...

  

Yeah, dodge that. that is the area, I already killed him - but I HAD over 300 energy just before he showed up... I didn't "misss him" either, he spawned after I got to this room...

 

Here is a few seconds later - see that pillar right there (I took a shot of the Pillar later because I was ambushed by the next one...):

 

Here's what was hidden around the other side...

 

what a nice surprise - a SECOND ENERGY SUCKER IN LESS THAN 30 SECONDS. And conveniently hidden from view behind that WIDE PILLAR, CROUCHED DOWN, NOT MOVING. I must have for got my x-ray vision... oh snap, x-ray vision is an ABILITY... not allowed to use that either, hey guys???

 

Oh look - it seems HIDING IS THEIR AI. I noticed the purple sucking so I snuck around to get his pic - see him hiding there behind the pop-up pillar. DODGE THAT. And before anyone say something that shows ignorance to game play NO YOUR MINI-MAP DOES NOT SHOW YOU WHAT KIND OF ENEMY IT IS, HOW MANY OR EXACTLY WHERE THEY ARE. The mini-map is very general - if you PLAY THE GAME you'll know that. It WILL NOT guide you to stealth around an enemy, it only shows GENERALLY that at least one enemy is somewhere in the vicinity.

 

If you have something relevant to the topic to contribute then great. But the general gaming, philosophy comments are not furthering this issue, resolving it or even addressing it. There is a problem specific to Warframe, and a Warframe mechanic and opinions on how games in general "should be" has nothing to do with it.

[warthogger14]

I sense a lock if this gets worse :v

for the loki example, when I feel like having a challenge i don't use invis and just keep moving around which i hardly get hit when doing, even in t3 or 4

(Also why should I make a video just for you?)

I've been on this game since u10 so I am well aware of what the game stands for and that is a misguided view that I want to tear down this game, you couldn't be more wrong; yes I admit the energy leaders can sometimes be a problem, but over time you learn ways to keep alive if your energy is suddenly stripped away

(the dodge part was meant to be a joke/dbzA)

Edited July 28, 2014 by warthogger14