Why Soo Much Hate On Any Pvp Idea?

[Verre]

Its so messed up atm, but seeing DE already has trouble balancing the pve part of the game, I seriously doubt that pvp will ever become balanced. Tweaking the frames, weapons, mods, damage systems, the rule of the game mode, and setting up dedicated servers, just for the pvp, is going to take alot of time and effort.

 

Basically this ^

I honestly don't mind pvp, though I don't participate in conclaves or duels as much. 

The new sector missions are quite fun. That is... If I don't see an Ash spamming Bladestorm, Valkyr with Hysteria, Vauban using Vortex and every Penta user out there.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2014 by Verre

[Zeitzbach]

PvP mode really bring out the most toxic in people. It's a battle between bugs and broken with some match cancellation in between.

 

This is why I kind of hate PvP Modes. Although you hate it, you sometime play it and try to get good at it and what happens? People will abuse the crap out of everything to piss off the other side. This creates a toxic community far worse than anything.

 

If I keep playing DS the way it currently is now, I wouldn't be surprised if I end up fighting against some forumers here and end up getting into even more fights. Finally Warframe offered the option to create actual enemies.

[-.Will.-]

I don't like it because it's not exactly balanced. You can't have fun and pvp at the same time unless your fun is just killing.

To combat certain frames (cough cough valkyr cough cough) you need to change your frame to be able to kill it, to do that you need to make it not how you would like it, making it not as fun.

[BloodCarnival]

I don't hate PVP, I hate how PVP players keep bringing it up as if it is the most important thing in this game.

Pretty much this for me.

[SilentMobius]

I've said this before in other threads, but I'll say it again here:

 

In any online game, there are many people that are unpleasant but most can be coerced into cooperation with suitable positive reinforcement. PvP is active _negative_ reinforcement and universally makes the situation worse.

 

Inter-player conflict is a bad thing, PvP encourages inter-player conflict.

 

It's not about the "PvP community" being worse that the "PvE community", it's simply that you get worse behavior out of any people when inter-player conflict (PVP) is sanctioned and encouraged, which becomes even worse the more important and expansive PvP becomes.

 

I have yet to see a game community that has become better with the addition or expansion of PvP. I have yet to see a game community decay slower due to the addition or expansion of PvP.

 

The only positive is that it is quick-and-easy player created content for people who crave interpersonal conflict.

[SSI_Kryptix]

PVP OR PVE every online Multiplayer game must have PVP!

[ivlr3vil]

PvP helps keep most games alive and brings it towards a larger e-sports scene. I welcome the idea of PvP into Dark Sectors if it really is PvP. All I see are spectres at the moment. if they balance it out and make it work, then it's a great idea. The thing is once players hit end game content, that's all they have left in MMOs usually. Adding in a ladder system where players have a kill to death ratio bar keeps things interesting. The major issue is that it's very hard to make something like a PvP system out of a PvE game. It's usually easier to do the reverse situation. Like if Dota 2 wanted to, they could make an entire single player PvE campaign out of their game, it's just they won't as they don't have a reason to.

Edited July 28, 2014 by ivlr3vil

[NoSpax]

Please have a look at that:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/275123-any-interest-in-a-pvp-competition-contest/

 

In B4 lock.

[Sorez]

Except de won't waste their time balancing pvp.

They want to make sure that the pve is the main focus of this game.

 

They already have done it to a few mods and weapons.

[Wiegraf]

First off, I'll go out of my way to admit the only PvP in Warframe I ever did was dueling in the Dojo and that happened about twice since I started playing in the closed beta. Now though, I'm not against PvP. In fact, I do enjoy a PvP game once in a while but I don't think I'd enjoy Warframe's PvP for a few simple reasons :

 

 

1) PvP should be a game of skill, not builds

 

The only kind of PvP I've ever truly enjoyed was the kind where all players were given access to the same tools which all had the same functionnality regardless of who used it. I do mean that mechanically speaking, the weapon functions exactly the same for person A and person B. This is why games like Unreal Tournament or Quake Arena, the kind of game which sets of all player with the same weapon and gives them pickups were always fun.

 

It's also why in games where you had loadouts, they were from a bank of weapons that remained the same. If you choose to pick Rifle A and Shotgun B, then anyone using Rifle A or Shotgun B, even if not paired together, worked the same way. If there are variations to be found, then those variations are hardcoded in the weapon itself and balanced on features like ammo capacity, rate of fire, damage, spread, etc. They stand on their own and not as a template where you can input multiple variables in.

 

Having weapons which allows modification means that any sort of decent balancing either has to do away with the mods entirely or make their effect ridiculously reduced for any sort of competitive play. There's a lot of difference between a base weapon and one which has added mod damage, multishot and elemental effects which leads to its effectiveness to be exponentially better. Which means unless every weapon had the exact same mod build for every player, you'll never attain a proper competitive balance in PvP.

 

In short, weapons were tools to express the skill of the player, not what defined their "skill" as a player.

 

 

2) Limit the presence of AI opposition to a minimum

 

This is best demonstrated with the new Conflict PvP with Specters and mobs. Sure, it's intended to have a MOBA-like type of gameplay and those enemies are there to give you affinity to rank up your gear. But they're something that acts on their own, outside of a player's control. If you're playing PvP, you're expecting to match your skills against other players and not AI. Especially since Specters can be built and donated on different tiers of efficiency, meaning one fight, you'll come across Vapor Specters and the next against the highest tier. As it stand now, Conflict matches are more about how much ressources pre-deployment you're willing to shell out than the actual performance of the players.

 

A parallel I can do with this is the nefariously cited Call of Duty : before the advent of perks, killstreaks and all those other factors, matches were fought between players with weapons (see point 1) and the best team won both from skill and strategy; it was good players against slightly/greatly better/worst players and unless there was a major mishap, most victories could be chalked to the better players' skill. Nowadays, you're more likely to have a missile drop down on your head or an AI chopper chase you around the map if not some other drone or automated 'killswitches'. It dumbs down the gameplay to early game momentum then grants the team which gets it with tools to easily dispatch enemies with a button. Turn arounds can occur but it often leads to one team dominating the other without having ever properly exchanging fire between each other for most of the match.

 

Same goes for another game that's competitively played : Super Smash Bros. ALL tournaments remove items from play and matches occurs only on maps with the less gimmicks (if not letting the players agree on which stage to fight). These items constitutes random factors which are out of a player's control, both in term of spawning and utility. They cannot be safely determined in advance as a form of strategy and some of them will summon an AI helper which will do the work for you.

 

In short, you, the player, should be the one factor deciding the outcome of a match, not an outside force which is computed and automated.

 

---

 

So yes, a few of those details might sound boring since they wouldn't take into account Warframe's mod system (point 1) or disregard the use of AI (point 2) but they would lead to PvP actually being competitive. I doesn't take a genius to notice that Conflicts are dominated by the same few Warframes and weapons. Sure, you could go on a trend to say that since everyone uses them, it's balanced... but that's like saying that any player who doesn't have access to these weapons or Warframes while still having access to Conflict nodes shouldn't play PvP; it's dividing your crowd between those who have Valkyr/Rhino/Trinity/Mirage/Weapon X or Y/etc. and those who don't which is a blatant proof that something isn't working right.

 

Conflict PvP could be revised somewhat as it's intended, lore wise, to be a war between clans so AI defense makes sense to a degree. As for conclave PvP, it needs to be overhauled so that it's not just a few gimp builds that are 'valid'; any warframe and weapon should provide equivalent means to win and while you can have players that are more proeficient at using certain weapons and warframes, these tools shouldn't be doing most of the heavy lifting for them.

[KorbanGado]

-snip-

You know, it might help make things a bit more balanced for sure if the only mods that came into play during PvP matches were the power-cards. If they were to stagger those power cards, it might help with the game flow for the DS matches as well. 

Granted, that's all hypothetical - I have absolutely 0 drive to play PvP in this game, as the main reason I got into it was to fix the fact that without a gold sub on the xbox I had no access to the coop fun of ME3 MP (a void that this game satisfies quite well).That being said, I can understand why people would want PvP, and with the general power levels of the opposing forces, I can also see how duels (the likes of conclaves) could be factored into the lore by simply "keeping one's skills sharp against equal level opponents" (cause you'll get rusty if all you do is beat on a person who's never used a sword when you're a master swordsman, yah know?).

Builds themselves are incredibly nice, because it makes for diversity (which in turn adds a bit of tensions/on the fly tactics adjustments), but for this particular game it can render some frames so overpowered compared to others that it's breaking (like you mentioned). Spawn zone camping is something that's always happened in games (to my experience) that have had fixed spawns. At this point, I'm not sure if there's any way around that outside of making more spawn points available then players, or giving spawning players X amount of time invulnerable whereas damage can still be dealt but no effects/damage can be taken from the spawned player - causing people to camp there to be subject to full on assault from the equivalent of an untouchable ghost. Of course, to counterbalance that, spawn zones would have to be placed in manners that it couldn't be abused from the invulnerable standpoint.

Granted, even if the actual PvP mode stuff is dealt with and made workable, you can still run into issues with the sheer uniqueness of an unmodded warframe.

Edit:

Oh, and too the OP question - I don't like the constant push for PvP personally because the draw to this game is that it's a Co-op experience. The most fun from Co-op I get is when it's a PvE experience, and usually the push for adding PvP means a massive balance to make everything fair (meaning most the frames would have some heavy gimps and generalization applied to make them even with each other). If they add it, I couldn't care less - particularly since it's just one team working on it and not everyone - but there's always that communal fear that it's going to effect the fun they have just so someone else can have fun doing something the game wasn't initially intended for and can be found in hundreds of other forms.

Edited July 28, 2014 by KorbanGado

[DjaAkh]

Wouldn't mind having a totally separated from PvE, good working PvP implemented in Warframe. Problem from my point of view would be: That takes a lot of afford and time to create. Since there are things about the rest of the game, I want DE to work on, I am not too enthusiastic about including PvP right now.

I don't see, how a purely optional, entirely from the PvE separated PvP might hurt the game. But a DE's day has just 24 hours.

[Wiegraf]

<snip>

 

That's the problem : if you try to balance something, you have to account in all possible variables. Since weapons and Warframes can, themselves, have multiple combinations of mods equipped, it means it's an incredibly large amount of things to consider even for one such weapon or Warframe.

 

The diversity is nice but by having that diversity in PvP, it turns it into a logistical nightmare to balance. If weapons and Warframes had no mods in PvP, then the only parameters you'd need to consider are those which are already in place in these weapons and Warframes. Hell, even games that have such static statistics on their weapons are constantly being revised; it's wishful thinking that PvP balance in Warframe will happen in its current state which allows mods to alter parameters that much.

 

Of course, I'm speaking only on PvP-centric balance changes, not 'across the board in PvE as well' changes.

[KorbanGado]

That's the problem : if you try to balance something, you have to account in all possible variables. Since weapons and Warframes can, themselves, have multiple combinations of mods equipped, it means it's an incredibly large amount of things to consider even for one such weapon or Warframe.

 

The diversity is nice but by having that diversity in PvP, it turns it into a logistical nightmare to balance. If weapons and Warframes had no mods in PvP, then the only parameters you'd need to consider are those which are already in place in these weapons and Warframes. Hell, even games that have such static statistics on their weapons are constantly being revised; it's wishful thinking that PvP balance in Warframe will happen in its current state which allows mods to alter parameters that much.

 

Of course, I'm speaking only on PvP-centric balance changes, not 'across the board in PvE as well' changes.

Oh of course, I always assume people regard balances for PvP as it's own entity, as nobody would really want that to bleed over to the power fantasy of PvE that we all love.

To some extent, balancing some diversity isn't a terrible thing for PvP (if you look at things such as MOBAs/fighters, where characters have different moves). Certainly, it makes for more work to keep one from being vastly overpowered, and probably slightly more so with how the warframes were made with the intent of being balanced against PvE not each other - but at the same time some were made with a roll in mind and have some stats to support is (such as the "caster frames" having less armor/health/shields). By all means though, the only mods that should come into play at all are the warframe powers - to which i mean the 4 moves you chose to use such as Iron Skin or Pull. A possible way to help balance this would be to replace the idea of orbs with a slow regen (since auras would also be gone). This would force players to choose whether to hold out for that one big show or what have you and would help bring the main action down to levels equivalent of a gun/sword fight. Of course, they would need to retool some of the weapons themselves for PvP purposes (modless Ogris is still a bit more threatening than a modless Braton, for example), but i honestly believe that you are on to something by simply just removing the mods from the mode.

I almost wonder if it would be easier if they made a set rotation of PvP weapons from the overall selection (such as you can use a karak, a gorgon, a strum, or a vectis as your main weapon selection) and then let you choose any frame to go with it, making a sort of "4th" loadout option (that would be modless outside Frame specials) to use for the PvP. It would make for a bit more balanced match - although I think we'd find that most the players would get upset over not being able to use their 6-forma'd instant-win grenade machine of doom (which i guess would be better technically then people being upset over not getting to leave the spawn because said grenade machine).