Why Kubrows Are Fine, And Why You're Probably Wrong

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I don't mind having some sort of upkeep involved. It's actually good that there is upkeep involved. The problem is that it's expensive upkeep, and you're penalized severely for not paying it.

It is one and a half alerts per day.  It is like 10 minutes a day. That is not expensive. 

[vaugahn]

Good job googling it.  Your previous post:

"Most likely you'll just get another mutt."

 

You won't "most likely" get another mutt.  You WILL get another mutt.  However mutts tend to have a diverse genetic background and so their puppies can have wildly differing characteristics. So yes, puppies irl are RNGed.

 

Oh wow, congratulations for finding that! You win.

 

And just so you know, putting together two mutts won't just roll the dice on what your dog looks like. It'll still look like its parents. 

 

Edit: try not to just say things. You can say that you can make 100k in 2 alerts, but I've never seen an alert worth more than 10k

Edited July 27, 2014 by vaugahn

[SmokinDevil]

So what you just said is "it's an unfair mechanic but it's okay because it's not that unfair."

 

All the Kubrow breeds are not equivalent to Sentinels in ability.  In potency perhaps, but that doesn't mean anything here.  It means if I like a Huras Kubrow and think it would fit my play style well, I have to spend 100,000 credits whenever his max health is low, whereas a guy who likes Dethcube the best doesn't have to pay a single credit for upkeep.

 

If you like Kubrows, you have to pay.  If you like Sentinels, you don't.  The game treats you differently depending on your preference in a way that either provides an arbitrary inconvenience, or doesn't.  All just because you like one thing more than another.

 

If you agree that there is a problem, however slight, does it not mean, by definition, it should be solved?

 

Kubrows are better doe.

 

In a non-trollish manner, they are though. Much better than sentinels. My Kubrows have been wrecking on their own in T3 survivals. They are heal-able without Trinity/Oberon, much more survivability, REVIVABLE, both stealth/disruption Kubrow abilities are better than their sentinel counterparts.

 

You can have the bleh Carrier that will probably match your frame, or you can have your own pet doge/insert whatever-******-meme-here and name it insert-whatever-unoriginal-name.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Oh wow, congratulations for finding that! You win.

 

And just so you know, putting together two mutts won't just roll the dice on what your dog looks like. It'll still look like its parents. 

 

Edit: try not to just say things. You can say that you can make 100k in 2 alerts, but I've never seen an alert worth more than 10k

Or its great great grand parents.

 

I have had a Russian Blue cat mate with a black tom cat, and it had a calico kitten. Similar thing with dogs. 

[Shreiko]

The fact that we, as consumer, are accepting this kind of abuse disgusts me. It's hardly on the same level, but it's the same concept of pretending that rape is not a problem and we should just deal with it. The standard is also cutting pieces of a game for Pre-Order Bonus, DRMing the S#&$ out of consumers, doesn't make it any less anti-consumer.

 

Most of your other point are also something like "Just let them rape you already" but this one just demonstrates the whole attitude of this post.

 

This fascination with rape you have, might I ask where it stemmed from? Also DEs wait times on Kubrows resembles the monetizing strategy you can witness in mobile gaming. This I find utterly disgusting, I doubt DE wants to turn into a King.com (candy crush saga dev).

[vaugahn]

Or its great great grand parents.

 

I have had a Russian Blue cat mate with a black tom cat, and it had a calico kitten. Similar thing with dogs. 

 

And I've had mutts that have had puppies that look exactly like them. Now, if your point is that since real dogs are RNG then fake dogs should be too, then you're not really understanding the point of video games.

[Blatantfool]

Yes, it is a chore somewhat, but right now, it is a bare-bones, spiky chore that just wipes out progress if players stop. 

 

Package it with some entertainment and leeway to make it fun, then the Kubrows will be enjoyed. 

 

 Honestly I'm in favor of doing away with degradation over time entirely. I firmly believe it'd be a better feature if degradation was related specifically to gameplay.

 

 I'm likely to be in favor of many suggestions supporting that sort of thing.

 

 My reasons are super simple.

 

 Primary among them, I consider the ability to pop in an play Warframe only when I feel like playing a round a serious advantage. One that DE should avoid messing with. I don't want things tying me down. I don't want to HAVE to log in once every X amount of hours lest I suffer some consequence that effects my inventory adversely. That's silly. I can't imagine why anyone would figure it'd improve the game.

 

 "Stick it in Cryo." - This is also an interruption to what I mean above. So unless I want my Kubrow to DIE I HAVE to log in at the right time every day or two and I HAVE to be playing enough to upkeep health injections OR I have to stick them in Cryo so that they wont degrade BUT the next time I do want to play I've gotta wait three hours to access a part of my setup. Right.

 

 "But Fool, real pets are like that! It's just realism!" - I'm sorry man. You're right, I know, but if you want a realistic pet experience buy a Puppy. He'll love you more then your Kubrow. Teach you responsibility better then your Kubrow. He'll even protect you from Burglars, something a Kubrow will not. Don't support messing with some of the good in Warframe for the sake of realism that serves no positive purpose.

 

 As an extreme example to kinda highlight how I think about this - Imagine Nintendo doing a Mario game with realistic jumping physics. It does nothing useful for a Mario game. Enhances no part of that game formula, in fact it's likely going to horribly hurt it. Pointless realism for the sake of being realistic is bad.

[AbaliskInfinite]

awesome stuff

I like this post.

[Renegade343]

Contents from post #114. 

I understand the reasoning behind DE(L)'s implementation of degradation (after all, Kubrows are quite strong and hardy), but their choice of where they implemented the degradation mechanic is flawed. 

 

Which is why I proposed in one of my own suggestion threads somewhere that base Health be decreased with injuries (i.e. when Kubrows die in a mission), but the more health percentage will also decrease (like Overshields in Halo: CE Multiplayer) (i.e.: Just decrease from 100% more health to 0% more health over time [from double health to normal health value]), and injuries can heal over time, or use a DNA Stabiliser to treat it. Meanwhile, Loyalty will decrease from 100% to -100% over time (will be long enough to make it reasonable), where at < 0%, the Kubrow will have a chance not to go into any missions with the player when equipped (up to 100% at -100% Loyalty). Loyalty can be increased by petting for buying Kubrow Food (another credit sink) to increase it further. 

 

That way, DE(L)'s vision of having to care for your Kubrow stays mostly intact, while making players more satisfied with playing with Kubrows. 

Edited July 27, 2014 by Renegade343

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

 "But Fool, real pets are like that! It's just realism!" - I'm sorry man. You're right, I know, but if you want a realistic pet experience buy a Puppy. He'll love you more then your Kubrow. Teach you responsibility better then your Kubrow. He'll even protect you from Burglars, something a Kubrow will not. Don't support messing with some of the good in Warframe for the sake of realism that serves no positive purpose.

 

 As an extreme example to kinda highlight how I think about this - Imagine Nintendo doing a Mario game with realistic jumping physics. It does nothing useful for a Mario game. Enhances no part of that game formula, in fact it's likely going to horribly hurt it. Pointless realism for the sake of being realistic is bad.

Or you could just not use a kubro or use a sentinel if you don't want to deal with a virtual pet.  Why should DE remove the virtual pet angle, especially when some people like it, to appease a few people, people that have other options available to them. It is not messing with something good in Warframe. This is how Kubros were introduced, and it serves a purpose.

 

Animal Crossing.

[Violet_Eagle7]

My friend's motherboard broke and wouldn't boot up, and guess what OP.......... He had to wait 4 weeks to get it RMA'd and shipped back to him. If he had a Kubrow and spent time grinding to get the egg and spending quite a bit of credits to get the thing only to have it die. He would be pretty upset, especially considering he didn't know his motherboard would do that. So there you have a real example of the problem with having Kubrow's die.

[kuri99]

I agree on some points and I disagree on others. The big issues IMO are below

 

DNA stabilizers at any price are something I dont like. Its like having to use digitial distribution services (DRM riddled services that always gets in the way of gaming to actually play the games I purchased). Its still wrong but there are degrees to how wrong it is. Right now the price for all those stablizers seems quite high especially with Dark sectors still being bugged for some people. I have almost 5 million credits right now but that doesnt mean I want to spend it all on keeping kubrows at +100% health. If they cut the price by a 0 I'll still think its wrong but as I said there are degrees to how wrong it is.

 

Bleedout time really need to be fixed. It should be 5-10 seconds IMO and there should be a symbol on the minimap indicating where your kubrow is. Furthermore I think their AI should force them to move toward cover while theyre downed. Loyal companion helps with this but basicly forcing a mod on there isnt good design IMO.

 

Stasis times are yet another issue. 3 hours to wake up a kubrow. So I basicly have to plan the day ahead to pull them out of stasis. Im sorry but I dont have clairvoyance. I cant tell a day ahead what missions I will and wont be doing or how Ill be doing them. I may want to pull out ash and a huras to stealth run something. Or I may go do a bunch of capture missions and need my Sinuka. Or maybe ill just want to run missions with Sadie (my Raska) because Sadie is awesome. The point is I cant see the future and what I will and wont need for the following day thus a 3 hour wait time gets in the way of using the right tool for the right job. I dont have to wait a few hours to change warframes, weapons, or mods, so I dont really see much point in requiring an hour wait to change Kubrows either. Even if you want to claim stasis for lore reasons then give me a freaking kennel as an option

 

Then theres the fact that you cant seem to get rid of Kubrows. you cant trade them specifically, you cant release them into the wild, they dont even seem to permanently die under any circumstances. Hell a released kubrow could be an interesting miniboss like the stalker or G3. Something that invades your earth runs in a fit of revenge because you forsook your bond with it. Right now if I get say 2 Raksa's Im kind of screwed unless I buy yet more stasis slots (not going to happen).

 

Were kubrows a nice addition to the game? Absolutely. However like other recent additions (melee and steath 2.0) theres room for improvement. DE needs feedback from the playerbase to improve these systems. If we dont speak up they wont know something is wrong.

Edited July 27, 2014 by kuri99

[vaugahn]

Or you could just not use a kubro or use a sentinel if you don't want to deal with a virtual pet.  Why should DE remove the virtual pet angle, especially when some people like it, to appease a few people, people that have other options available to them. It is not messing with something good in Warframe. This is how Kubros were introduced, and it serves a purpose.

 

Animal Crossing.

 

They can keep in the pet angle while also making it more accessible to casual players.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

They can keep in the pet angle while also making it more accessible to casual players.

Casual players are already served by Sentinels

[vaugahn]

Casual players are already served by Sentinels

 

Why can't casual players have kubrows too? Is your position that you want it to be a pet simulator, or you want it to be hardcore players only?

[Buzkyl]

Casual players are already served by Sentinels

 

 

How  dare those filthy casuals want Kubrows

 

 

Let's be real, Kubrows likely aren't going to dent Sentinels share of the pie significantly in their main state in this state. Which is abit sad considering the Hype they've gotten.

[LukeAura]

Or you could just not use a kubro or use a sentinel if you don't want to deal with a virtual pet.  Why should DE remove the virtual pet angle, especially when some people like it, to appease a few people, people that have other options available to them. It is not messing with something good in Warframe. This is how Kubros were introduced, and it serves a purpose.

It's not removing it, it's making it friendly for all players while providing benefits for those who want to treat it more seriously. 

It gives players a choice because there are some things that a Kubrow can be used for that a sentinel can't. 

I intend on using my kubrow solely as a Liset decoration. It adds noise and interactions to waist time on there. It makes it feel more at home in a way my sentinel can't provide. But, compared to what a Kubrow can be used for, I should not have to spend 100K credits for that. 

And pets have different quality of food. The expensive food can provide a benefit of increased health. The free food only provides base health. 

Pet simulators don't necessarily make you pay for your pet, just make the pet seem alive. Actually buying the food, is a very small component to it as opposed to actually feeding it.

[TangyBlueBerry]

 

6. So kubrows actually die if their health reaches -100%? That's way too punishing and needs to be removed.

 

If your kubrow reaches -100% health, that is completely and totally your fault, as you have several options available to you to ever prevent that from happening. You either play the game, spend credits on stabilizers, and use those stabilizers to keep your kubrow healthy, or you put them in stasis and freeze their health and loyalty levels at their current level. If your kubrow actually hits -100% health, you absolutely deserve to have your kubrow permanently die on you. That's your fault for not taking care of it.

 

I hit the major points, but probably missed some other things. All things considered though, kubrows are fine. They're not perfect and could definitely use some tweaks, but they aren't nearly as terrible as everyone is making them out to be. And besides, if you don't like them, just use your sentinels. No one is forcing you to use a kubrow.

 

 

Thing about that is not everyone has the time to maintain and up keep a kubrow. For example the weekend players, people who play only on weekends, sure they can use stasis but then we get the waiting for 3 hours till we can use our puppy when a sentinel will always be there for you.

 

Another issue I feel needs to be shown is how sentinels are much cheaper, take less time to make, no RNG just buy the BP and build, use mods that are much more common to get, I mean kubrow mods only drop from kubrows and let me say unless you deliberately farm for them, you'll likely never get the rares. That AND sents offer much more utility to the player. Shade can cloak you AND give you shields if your low, vs kubrows were only they force you to pike one ability. Carrier sweeps everything to you vs the sahasa dig that just adds a vew more ammo clips that YOU have to go get.

 

In the end sents will always simply be cheaper, easier, more accessible to the majority of players, and more useful. Plus you dont have to roll RNG to get the type you want after waiting 6 hours or having to pay plat to get the imprint you want that might not even work! DE LOVES RNG RIGHT!? This whole game is based on RNG, sents are one of the few things that are not behind an rng wall, unlike kubrows.

 

This coming from someone who already spent 1 mil creds and will waste few weeks to get the type, color, pattern, size of kubrow I want to only then place it in stasis forever.

[Blatantfool]

Or you could just not use a kubro or use a sentinel if you don't want to deal with a virtual pet.  Why should DE remove the virtual pet angle, especially when some people like it, to appease a few people, people that have other options available to them. It is not messing with something good in Warframe. This is how Kubros were introduced, and it serves a purpose.

 

Animal Crossing.

 

 Since I clearly cannot see something you can, I'm just going to ask straight up.

 

 Explain to me what, in your opinion, the degradation of Kubrows over time does to enhance Warframe as a game that is worth breaking the trend of being a game that doesn't have anything strict to tie you down. That is really what this seems to come down to.

 

 I figure it is worth discussing.

 

I understand the reasoning behind DE(L)'s implementation of degradation (after all, Kubrows are quite strong and hardy), but their choice of where they implemented the degradation mechanic is flawed. 

 

Which is why I proposed in one of my own suggestion threads somewhere that base Health be decreased with injuries (i.e. when Kubrows die in a mission), but the more health percentage will also decrease (like Overshields in Halo: CE Multiplayer) (i.e.: Just decrease from 100% more health to 0% more health over time [from double health to normal health value]), and injuries can heal over time, or use a DNA Stabiliser to treat it. Meanwhile, Loyalty will decrease from 100% to -100% over time (will be long enough to make it reasonable), where at < 0%, the Kubrow will have a chance not to go into any missions with the player when equipped (up to 100% at -100% Loyalty). Loyalty can be increased by petting for buying Kubrow Food (another credit sink) to increase it further. 

 

That way, DE(L)'s vision of having to care for your Kubrow stays mostly intact, while making players more satisfied with playing with Kubrows. 

 

  Just to clarify. I am not in favor of the total removal of degradation in the Kubrow. Having to maintain them. I'm simply in favor of removing the degradation over passage of time. Just want to make sure I say that outright at some point in the discussion.

 

 I want my Kubrow's maintenance to be related directly to me using him in battle. I want to have to be careful when I bring him along, knowing that constant deaths will increase the frequency I have to maintain him. I also want to be able to play carefully and in doing so dramatically slow how often I have to maintain him.

 

 That is, to me, both fair and even kinda appealing.

 

  As I've said before, however, I find how they degrade outside of my using them to be messing with something in Warframe I do consider a positive trait. They're a leash tying you to the game more so than any other feature.

[GunBladeSlash]

to the op you have to admit that these complaints have many valid points im pretty sure that mostly everyone can agree that kubrows true potential is locked behind a series of grind/time walls. 

i came to this game because Ninjas play FREE!! only plat i get is from trades. so free players like me have to endure the time walls greatly taking away from the fun factor of this game remember what fun is?

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Why can't casual players have kubrows too? Is your position that you want it to be a pet simulator, or you want it to be hardcore players only?

If they want it then they can put in the same work as everyone else. My issue isn't that casuals want to use things.  It's that they want things dumbed down for their own sakes, regardless of what it means for core players. Plus, they seem to think they are entitled to have things dumbed down for them.

[vaugahn]

If they want it then they can put in the same work as everyone else. My issue isn't that casuals want to use things.  It's that they want things dumbed down for their own sakes, regardless of what it means for core players. Plus, they seem to think they are entitled to have things dumbed down for them.

 

How are smaller credit costs and shorter wait times "dumbed down"? Also, I'm interested to hear your answer to the question posed to you by Blatantfool. I think his solution of kubrows only degrading due to combat usage is much fairer and less punishing. 

[Renegade343]

  Just to clarify. I am not in favor of the total removal of degradation in the Kubrow. Having to maintain them. I'm simply in favor of removing the degradation over passage of time. Just want to make sure I say that outright at some point in the discussion.

 

 I want my Kubrow's maintenance to be related directly to me using him in battle. I want to have to be careful when I bring him along, knowing that constant deaths will increase the frequency I have to maintain him. I also want to be able to play carefully and in doing so dramatically slow how often I have to maintain him.

 

 That is, to me, both fair and even kinda appealing.

 

  As I've said before, however, I find how they degrade outside of my using them to be messing with something in Warframe I do consider a positive trait. They're a leash tying you to the game more so than any other feature.

I respect your viewpoint on this matter, but I do believe that degradation over time in games is alright (as long there is a countermeasure), as long as it does not wipe out player progress when players cannot pay up the countermeasure (if there is one in the first place, which is why I think Argon Crystals could be improved upon). 

 

Of course, with that suggestion, base health decreases with injury if the Kubrow dies in the mission, so at least there is something related with Kubrow maintenance and using the Kubrow in battle. 

[LukeAura]

If they want it then they can put in the same work as everyone else. My issue isn't that casuals want to use things.  It's that they want things dumbed down for their own sakes, regardless of what it means for core players. Plus, they seem to think they are entitled to have things dumbed down for them.

"Every Tenno deserves a Kubro." ~ Lotus, and let's not all forget all the effort in getting and raising a Kubrow without the perpetual cost. If they go through all that, they've earned it. The game quite literally tells you, you are entitled to a Kubrow. If the game needs to be dumbed down to fit with its own words, then it probably should happen.

And some of the implementations don't dumb down the system in any way for more dedicated players. 

If you offer tiers of food, a free food that provides minimal benefits, and a costly food that provides major benefits. The system is better for everyone. 

Edited July 27, 2014 by LukeAura

[Blatantfool]

I respect your viewpoint on this matter, but I do believe that degradation over time in games is alright (as long there is a countermeasure), as long as it does not wipe out player progress when players cannot pay up the countermeasure (if there is one in the first place, which is why I think Argon Crystals could be improved upon). 

 

Of course, with that suggestion, base health decreases with injury if the Kubrow dies in the mission, so at least there is something related with Kubrow maintenance and using the Kubrow in battle. 

 

 It is definitely something that is okay to do. I just don't feel it is a fit in Warframe. I don't feel it does anything positive for the game. Because of that, I want it gone. Negative features need not apply. This isn't like a gold sink, which is stuff a game like this needs. This is a leash, which in and of itself is not incredibly wrong for a game to do - but Warframe has never once needed this kind of thing and the lack of needing it is a positive trait. So why add one anyway, right?