Why Kubrows Are Fine, And Why You're Probably Wrong

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

 Since I clearly cannot see something you can, I'm just going to ask straight up.

 

 Explain to me what, in your opinion, the degradation of Kubrows over time does to enhance Warframe as a game that is worth breaking the trend of being a game that doesn't have anything strict to tie you down. That is really what this seems to come down to.

 

 I figure it is worth discussing.

Did you ever have a Tamagotchi.  The "food" basically makes the Kubro feel more alive.  It is something you have to take care of, and by doing so, you gain more of an emotional attachment to it. It is not breaking any trends. You have never had a living creature in warframe before. Argon crystals are a bigger issue with degradation.

 

And again, it is not a required feature so it isn't forcing anyone to change their play style.  Sentinels are a viable alrenative, and sentinels are more useful as well.  The entire point of the Kubro is being a virtual pet.

[ulrich282]

I  was really excited about Kubrows when they were first added and hinted at as pets.  Now I have 30k and no DNA stabilizers.  So my dog is going to be napping in the freezer until DE makes changes to the system that should have been included on patch day.

 

Not sure how people can defend every mistake DE makes as fine, when there have been multiple overtuned things released in the past(That 200 morphics -> 2 morphics tho).

 

We aren't even feeding them, we have to constantly inject them with DNA stabilizers so their body doesn't destroy itself

Edited July 27, 2014 by ulrich282

[vaugahn]

Did you ever have a Tamagotchi.  The "food" basically makes the Kubro feel more alive.  It is something you have to take care of, and by doing so, you gain more of an emotional attachment to it. It is not breaking any trends. You have never had a living creature in warframe before. Argon crystals are a bigger issue with degradation.

 

If the food aspect is all you want, why are you so opposed to it being easier to obtain? It wouldn't change your enjoyment of your virtual pet in any way, right?

[Renegade343]

 It is definitely something that is okay to do. I just don't feel it is a fit in Warframe. I don't feel it does anything positive for the game. Because of that, I want it gone. Negative features need not apply. This isn't like a gold sink, which is stuff a game like this needs. This is a leash, which in and of itself is not incredibly wrong for a game to do - but Warframe has never once needed this kind of thing and the lack of needing it is a positive trait. So why add one anyway, right? 

It does encourage players to log in every day (and then maybe play), but DE(L)'s current implementation of it feels as though it is forcing the players to log in every day (or place it stasis, but that is a somewhat moot point). And I do think it fits into Warframe, but in very small amounts. 

 

Slight encouragement for players to log in with degradation of things over time to check on and such is alright (heck, it may actually slightly boost sales revenue if done correctly [although I have not seen one yet]). But just do not overdo it. 

[optyk]

to the op you have to admit that these complaints have many valid points im pretty sure that mostly everyone can agree that kubrows true potential is locked behind a series of grind/time walls. 

i came to this game because Ninjas play FREE!! only plat i get is from trades. so free players like me have to endure the time walls greatly taking away from the fun factor of this game remember what fun is?

 

 

Wait what? You honestly think that F2P labeled games mean you get to game, for free? (I say it over and over the F2P label needs to disappear and be renamed)

 

And at that same time you admit to not buying any Plat and just making it from others that do, while "enduring time walls, thats taking away from your 100% free fun". Uhh... what? So you don't buy any other games out there at all, none? You just maintain a PC and Internet connection?

 

No offense, but I honestly just don't understand that type of rationale/mentality/reasoning or whatever you wanna call that. At all. Sorry. Is the problem you face that the free game you're playing not free enough? Honest fair question -just tryin' to comprehend.

[ReiganCross]

Are you kidding me???? this is not abuse, this is, to me, DE trying to add a new and engaging mechanic to their work-in-progress game. yes, there are bus aplenty. yes, the stasis timer is irritating and i want it to go away. yes, it is expensive to keep your space dog alive. But it is just that: a space dog. do you complain that it is abuse by a pet store when you have to buy food for and train your pet? no, because that is something that you agree to when you get said pet.

 

am I "white-Knighting?" not in my opinion. I feel that i am simply saying that perhaps you should cut them a little slack on the less than brilliant decisions you feel that they made when implementing a brand new mechanic.

 

I am referring to the whole "Timers are a normal thing in FtP and you should just deal with it." when i said that, not just the whole Dog thing. Kubrow have problems, i don't like them, but we can't just accept this because this has become some kind of standard.

 

You're still within your right to complain about something designed to be abusive.

 

When i pay 60 bucks to get a game, i don't feel abused, i feel like i got my money's worth (Well, sometimes anyway...). Rushing a timer in Warframe don't make me feel like i'v got my money's worth, no matter how small the price of rushing is, it feels like DE just took a bug-sized bite at the money i put in the game to support the making of it. I don't feel like i'v paid and got something, i feel like i paid and removed something that shouldn't be there to begin with.

 

That's what i'm talking about, timers are an abusive practice that i don't think we should just "accept" because it has become some kind of "standard"!

Edited July 27, 2014 by ReiganCross

[TangyBlueBerry]

They're a leash tying you to the game more so than any other feature.

That is it, that is exactly what it is. A leash to keep nearby, I wonder? Do kubrows like leashes? Probably not, so why give players one? This pushes people away from games more than keeps them in.

[Entari0]

<response>

You are well within your rights to feel abused when you pay to rush things, but the devs of a f2p game have to make money somehow, this isn’t a charity they are running, it is a business. When you (general you, not you specifically) decide to make a f2p game part of your business, you have to think of how to monetize it. In DE's case, they decided to do so with the option to eliminate time- and grind-walls. If you feel ripped off when you rush something, or buy the resource, then my simple advice to you is "don’t buy said service."

 

Also, to the "timers are a common and normal think in f2p games" point, they are common in f2p because they have been proven to work as a monetization scheme. if we all, as players, stopped buying plat and rushing or blueprints, or buying whatever the IRL currency in the f2p game is, I bet a lot of the time walls would go away, and a lot of design studios would be left scratching their heads, trying to figure out how to make money.

[TheErebus.]

Can we all just agree that if you want a kubrow then be prepared for the upkeep and if you don't wanna do it then go for a sentinel.

[Blatantfool]

Did you ever have a Tamagotchi.  The "food" basically makes the Kubro feel more alive.  It is something you have to take care of, and by doing so, you gain more of an emotional attachment to it. It is not breaking any trends. You have never had a living creature in warframe before. Argon crystals are a bigger issue with degradation.

 

And again, it is not a required feature so it isn't forcing anyone to change their play style.  Sentinels are a viable alrenative, and sentinels are more useful as well.  The entire point of the Kubro is being a virtual pet.

 

 It IS breaking a trend. Before now there was never once a reason you HAD to log in every day. What the game does to justify you doing it doesn't matter - the fact that you are feeding a Kubrow is unimportant. At it's base level what I'm getting at is that that part of the Kubrow is a leash. A leash that does nothing good for anything. 

 

 The broken trend is that up till now Warframe has never had any leashes because it never needed them.

 Now Warframe has a leash, though is still really doesn't need one for anything important. 

 

 And like I said before, the concept of 'Virtual pet' being all that realistic in Warframe is pointless. Buy a puppy. Or heck, buy a Tamagotchi. If having to make sure you don't let your Kubrow die over and over was the most upkeep you had to worry about that would be more then realistic enough to give people the right kind of idea. The leash is extra piled on top. I honestly believe that.

 

 I noticed earlier that you seem to be worried about changing the way upkeep works to be simpler would be dumbing the feature down too much. Casualizing it. A fair worry, I guess. But how does stuff like what I'm talking about serve to support Hardcore players? Simply having a lot of extra stuff on your plate is not supporting hardcore gameplay. There is nothing HARD about factors like the Time Degrade I'm talking about. It is just an annoyance. Something in the way. 

 

 Honestly, I think the idea of focusing maintenance more on performance is closer to supporting skill in-game. Want your Kubrow to last forever? Be good enough that he doesn't die on you over and over. 

 

  Anyway, while we may not agree at least I can see how you're thinking about it. We both happen to make the Tamagotchi connection - thing is, I believe that having it there adds nothing worth having. This could be made to work just fine without leashing anyone to anything.

 

 All that said - the last bone I'd like to pick with you is something that you're totally right to say, but I'd still like to address.

 

 "You don't even have to use the Kubrow" is a 100% accurate statement. I just want you to understand that I don't really see the point in thinking this way when I'm posting in a thread about the issues surrounding Kubrow (Or any feature, this really is more of a general forum thing). Talking about the issues and pressing forward to look for solutions and compromises is worth doing, whether the feature is a necessary part of the game or an optional one. This is a discussion thread about Kubrow - nothing is accomplished if all the Feedback is suddenly supposed to end when someone points out you can just never use em.

 

It does encourage players to log in every day (and then maybe play), but DE(L)'s current implementation of it feels as though it is forcing the players to log in every day (or place it stasis, but that is a somewhat moot point). And I do think it fits into Warframe, but in very small amounts. 

 

Slight encouragement for players to log in with degradation of things over time to check on and such is alright (heck, it may actually slightly boost sales revenue if done correctly [although I have not seen one yet]). But just do not overdo it. 

 

 

 But WHY create that necessity? The only reason this leash seems to exist is for the sake of keeping on top of the leash. If Warframe had the kind of Gameplay where logging in everyday really was important then I'd understand better - but it really isn't like that. Playing Warframe today is no different from playing it tomorrow or three days from now. What is so important that DE wants to leash me to it? So what, I'm suppose to witness more Alerts? But I don't NEED anything in particular from Alerts. What is this doing for me? Where is the part where being leashed to the game somehow works out for me? I'm not really making the connection. 

 

 Especially since, as a few other posters - DesecratedFlame included - have said. Kubrows themselves are in no way a necessary part of the game. It is bizarre to me that this predicament exists.

[TangyBlueBerry]

Wait what? You honestly think that F2P labeled games mean you get to game, for free? (I say it over and over the F2P label needs to disappear and be renamed)

 

And at that same time you admit to not buying any Plat and just making it from others that do, while "enduring time walls, thats taking away from your 100% free fun". Uhh... what? So you don't buy any other games out there at all, none? You just maintain a PC and Internet connection?

 

No offense, but I honestly just don't understand that type of rationale/mentality/reasoning or whatever you wanna call that. At all. Sorry. Is the problem you face that the free game you're playing not free enough? Honest fair question -just tryin' to comprehend.

You're taking what he says and means way out of context. But thats none of my business, just sayain.

[CapnFusterCluck]

So you're saying you know for a fact that people who have any sort of issue that prevents them from playing warframe for a week will not be worrying about losing tens of hours of time investment?   Can you prove this? No.

But fine... I'll play by your silly rules.

Say you have a hardware failure near Black Friday.   All the local electronic stores are out of stock for the parts you need, and places like Newegg have over a week's shipping time due to UPS, Fedex, etc. all being bogged down with tens of millions of package delivery orders.

According to you, you deserve to lose your kubrow because of something you couldn't control, and it's "your fault" for said thing happening.

If it's something that can't be controlled, why are you complaining about it? It's bound to happen, and there are precautions that can "prevent" said things. 

 

And the situation you explained about delivery and the local electronic stores WILL NEVER HAPPEN. EVER.

[holdenagincourt]

Either stasis cooldown needs to be changed, or we need to have the ability to manage multiple active kubrows so I can take one on a mission while another is getting its genetic template taken and a third is recovering. Having to plan my day around Warframe just so a certain kubrow is available when I want to play the game with it at some point later on is absurd.

 

I am eager to spend my platinum on added customization or convenience, but I am feeling resentment--for the first time in Warframe, really--at having to use it to make basic gameplay usable on a consistent basis. This is very different from having to spend platinum once to buy a syandana, color palette, profile pack or a new sentinel, and the reason an appreciable number of people are complaining is because they recognize this.

 

I'm afraid you've not even come close to convincing me that I'm "probably wrong" on this, TC.

[GunBladeSlash]

Wait what? You honestly think that F2P labeled games mean you get to game, for free? (I say it over and over the F2P label needs to disappear and be renamed)

 

And at that same time you admit to not buying any Plat and just making it from others that do, while "enduring time walls, thats taking away from your 100% free fun". Uhh... what? So you don't buy any other games out there at all, none? You just maintain a PC and Internet connection?

 

No offense, but I honestly just don't understand that type of rationale/mentality/reasoning or whatever you wanna call that. At all. Sorry. Is the problem you face that the free game you're playing not free enough? Honest fair question -just tryin' to comprehend.

before the this update the only time wall was crafting which would make sense because your getting something you didnt have before which would also apply to the egg  but so it would make sense that once its done being used i should have free and unlimited use of that kubrow just like the warframes/weps/sentinels i made before and also  kubrows are the only thing in the game  that are locked be hind 3 time walls egg/incubation/stasis and if you want to play with said kubrow you do have to endure multiple time walls which is very restricting and ties players down.i mean how would you like it if everytime you swapped frames you where forced to wait for rush with plat same exact concept.

(p.s what you said made little sense and was sorta off topic and way outta context so responded best i could)

Edited July 27, 2014 by GunBladeSlash

[CapnFusterCluck]

Can we all just agree that if you want a kubrow then be prepared for the upkeep and if you don't wanna do it then go for a sentinel.

This person is wise.

[Blatantfool]

Can we all just agree that if you want a kubrow then be prepared for the upkeep and if you don't wanna do it then go for a sentinel.

 

 I'm willing to agree with that.

 

 I just think that Upkeep as it is now needs work. It could be better!

[LukeAura]

 But WHY create that necessity? The only reason this leash seems to exist is for the sake of keeping on top of the leash. If Warframe had the kind of Gameplay where logging in everyday really was important then I'd understand better - but it really isn't like that. Playing Warframe today is no different from playing it tomorrow or three days from now. What is so important that DE wants to leash me to it? So what, I'm suppose to witness more Alerts? But I don't NEED anything in particular from Alerts. What is this doing for me? Where is the part where being leashed to the game somehow works out for me? I'm not really making the connection. 

 

 Especially since, as a few other posters - DesecratedFlame included - have said. Kubrows themselves are in no way a necessary part of the game. It is bizarre to me that this predicament exists.

So would you then consider making it more like the log in reward? It only encourages the frequent visiting of the game, but doesn't punish the absence?

[ReiganCross]

If it's something that can't be controlled, why are you complaining about it? It's bound to happen, and there are precautions that can "prevent" said things. 

 

And the situation you explained about delivery and the local electronic stores WILL NEVER HAPPEN. EVER.

 

And if they do you can always log in a friend's laptop or another piece of PC nearby, install the game there (might take a while), log in and Stasis your dog until your own rig is available. Hell, if anything, maybe it will give your friend a chance to get this game a shot, which is always a bonus.

 

My brother don't play Warframe, but there is a Warframe build (U13 i believe) in his machine. That's the convenience of F2P, anyone can install it.

 

Now, if the chances of THAT also not being an option appears... Well, then you're going to need drastic measures, maybe even contact Support, who knows, maybe they can do something about it?

[Blatantfool]

So would you then consider making it more like the log in reward? It only encourages the frequent visiting of the game, but doesn't punish the absence?

 

 I could live with that thought process as a compromise.

 

 If time still degraded the Kubrow, but would never actually kill it permanently. I would settle for that. The nasty ending of leaving the leash alone being gone is enough to count as a fix for it in my opinion.

 

 Though even then I'd still much rather DE switched to a method of upkeep that really was more about your performance while working with the Kubrow.

[Renegade343]

 But WHY create that necessity? The only reason this leash seems to exist is for the sake of keeping on top of the leash. If Warframe had the kind of Gameplay where logging in everyday really was important then I'd understand better - but it really isn't like that. Playing Warframe today is no different from playing it tomorrow or three days from now. What is so important that DE wants to leash me to it? So what, I'm suppose to witness more Alerts? But I don't NEED anything in particular from Alerts. What is this doing for me? Where is the part where being leashed to the game somehow works out for me? I'm not really making the connection. 

 

 Especially since, as a few other posters - DesecratedFlame included - have said. Kubrows themselves are in no way a necessary part of the game. It is bizarre to me that this predicament exists.

Encourage ≠ Mandatory. Just saying. 

 

Degradation of items over time is fine, as long as it does not force players to log in every day (or wipe out progress).

 

Look, I am not supporting the current mechanism, but I do want to create a proposal to balance out what DE(L) wants and what most players want, and the suggestion I posted is the best compromise in my opinion. It does not place a leash on the player (as it does not kill the Kubrow when the player neglects to login for a few days), while still keeping within the developers' wish of caring for Kubrows. 

[GunBladeSlash]

 I could live with that thought process as a compromise.

 

 If time still degraded the Kubrow, but would never actually kill it permanently. I would settle for that. The nasty ending of leaving the leash alone being gone is enough to count as a fix for it in my opinion.

 

 Though even then I'd still much rather DE switched to a method of upkeep that really was more about your performance while working with the Kubrow.

i would settle for a buff system if you log on and maintained you kubrow it would gain a couple buffs to its stats and if you didnt it would just stay at its base stats instead of it freaking dying gone forever with its potatoes and forma and plat that was used on it

[Blatantfool]

Encourage ≠ Mandatory. Just saying. 

 

Degradation of items over time is fine, as long as it does not force players to log in every day (or wipe out progress).

 

Look, I am not supporting the current mechanism, but I do want to create a proposal to balance out what DE(L) wants and what most players want, and the suggestion I posted is the best compromise in my opinion. It does not place a leash on the player (as it does not kill the Kubrow when the player neglects to login for a few days), while still keeping within the developers' wish of caring for Kubrows. 

 

  I don't mean to make it look like I'm attacking what you're saying thinking that you support it. I'm just talking very generally about how I think about the issue. Sorry if I seemed otherwise to you. I'm enjoying the chance to spill what I think about the whole thing honestly.

[castem]

- snip - 

 

Kubrows themselves are alright; it's their upkeep, maintenance, and customization that have gained players' ire.

 

Upkeep:  100k credits for a pack of stabilizers is pretty ridiculous, no matter how you look at it.  You first get the Kubrow quest from the Jackal, which indicates that even newer players can start the process to getting a Kubrow.  The 100k credit barrier for the incubator is big, sure, but no different than what you'd face for a Sentinel.  Unlike Sentinels, however, the 100k credit cost for Kubrows keeps repeating.  And repeating.  And repeating (in the form of stabilizers), unless you decide not to use your Kubrow anymore (stasis/death).  But 100k credits is easy!  ...for whom, I ask?

- Newer players are busy spending their credits on weapons, gear, and frames, since they gotta upgrade from the starter ones.  And as the planets and missions get harder, they need to upgrade again, and again, and again.  And aside from upgrading, they may also want to try out other weapons and frames they haven't tried yet.  This - as you might've guessed - will cost them a significant amount of credits (unless they plan on buying everything with platinum just to try it out, for some reason).

- Players with more experience (and gear) are busy spending their credits on maxing out the mods that take an insane number of credits and cores to max out (Serration, Hornet Strike, Vitality, Redirection, Steel Fiber, etc).

- So.....that leaves players with all the maxed mods and pretty much all the gear they need or want.  So congratulations, you guys!  You get Kubrows and can maintain their upkeep no problem.  For everyone else....well, tough luck.  I hope you have fun deciding between keeping your Kubrow usable and getting your gear/mods up to par, because it's a choice you'll be making often.

 

Maintenance:  Make sure you log in, or your Kubrow will eventually die on its own?  That's not okay.....especially for those that suddenly lose their ability to access/play Warframe.  (Losing power for a week due to a natural disaster isn't unheard of.  And for the response 'if that happens, you've got other things to worry about':  that response is atrocious.  'That person has worse things to worry about, so they shouldn't mind/care if something else bad happens to them' is not an acceptable excuse or way of thinking.)

And on the note of Kubrows dying, they do die way too quickly and with no indicators of where they're bleeding out.  I think most players are in agreement that that needs looked at.

 

Customization:  Warframe has made buying color palettes to customize your gear an accepted practice by now.  However, randomizing that process - especially if it involves platinum - is not okay with players (see:  the player response to scramblers).  Honestly, even the breed of your Kubrow is random - especially baffling if you are willing to spend plat on it through the market (kubrow eggs).  There is no good reason for customizing your Kubrow to be such a chore, especially when it is so easy and integrated elsewhere in Warframe.

[Somedude1000]

Kubrows are extremely hard for now players to take care of. They may not have access to nodes like sechura etc.

 

When these slightly less experienced newbies (maybe like 10-30 hours in game) try taking the kubrows out, they have no idea what to do, how to protect them, how to mod etc, and so when the kubrow suffers, they give negative feedback on it.

 

I don't blame them, but apparently it'll be an issue if kubrows are mastery locked, because of the " new  players need the same access to items as veterans"

argument

[Renegade343]

  I don't mean to make it look like I'm attacking what you're saying thinking that you support it. I'm just talking very generally about how I think about the issue. Sorry if I seemed otherwise to you. I'm enjoying the chance to spill what I think about the whole thing honestly.

I still see the current mechanism as the issue (after all, no one wants to feel leashed to log in each day like clocking in at a job), and I do respect suggestions to improve it, but we must also consider that this is also the developers' work/game, and they too would also have a say in it. Making a balance between what the developers want and what players want would allow most of both sides to be generally happy.