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Warframe Stagnant Because De Listen To To Many Complainers?


OrphanMaker
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Many complain about wanting more frames, buff this, nerf that, more weapons, skins, cosmetics gimme gimme gimme i want i want i want.. then spends most of their time speed running through the entire game anyway so they wouldn't really notice most changes implemented good or bad, many others just don't give a damn.
As for the multitude of complaints posted daily.. we can enter these forums in high spirits and within minutes of reading through some of the topics, we get pulled down into that negativity that this forum is notorious for and is then reflected within our own posts we make.

 

Saying that..

 

Calling Warframe "stagnant" a few days after its biggest update is ridiculous.

 

Try telling that to the thousands who couldn't log in or to those that did log in only to be constantly auto logged out, tell that to those who chose to experience the prologue only to be prevented from actually doing anything and/or progressing, tell that to those who were prevented from progressing through their quests &/or left scratching their heads as they searched for relevant information pertaining to these new features yet had to go elsewhere to find answers. No, I will remember U14 for the wrong reasons but put up with it because i enjoy the game.

 

Sadly for me U14 was/is bug city central and this time i refuse to blame the negativity on the community whereas before i would have.

Edited by Nemesis101
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Complainers are one of the major reason why the weapons aren't balanced.  Balance is framed as "nerfing fun" and a host of other random excuses why damage values shouldn't follow any sort of pattern.  Any enemy which has the capacity to kill you gets slammed as being too powerful, and any enemy which takes more than a single bullet is a "bullet sponge".  I played L4D the other day and was dumbstruck on how much harder it is than warframe.  If DE did Left 4 Dead, Tanks would take 2 bullets and the special infected wouldn't incapacitate you.

Edited by azmyth1
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DE has to provide a game that's fun for the average warframe player, not just people on the forums. Even if every single one of us complained about something it would still be a tiny minority of complaining people against the game's playerbase. At the same time, we're the only ones they get feedback from which makes it hard to accurately discern the needs of an average player.

 

Now, if what you said was true and DE listened to complainers too much, this game would be a totally different beast. However you're forgetting the positive changes this community has brought about, and you're also forgetting DE's ability to simply ignore whiners.

 

Give them some more credit.

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-OP's Post-

 

DE is running a business, NOT just a game.

 

What is a business about? Scaling and sustainability.

 

Please note, one of the complaints that I think is valid is the fact that the early game is now TOO TOUGH. Mercury used to be easy, it was a nice place for players to get used to the game, but with the recent changes to enemy level, Venus and Mercury are now...pretty hardcore, especially if you're stuck with a Braton and no idea what to do. It will turn players off rather badly I'm afraid.

 

For this reason, I made suggestions many times that DE, instead of creating just ONE difficulty, create two difficulties, one for new players (normal mode) and one for veteran players (veteran mode). Veteran mode will be different from nightmare mode, because the only thing it will increase are enemy levels, without the extra 'challenge' of nightmare mode. That way the stronger players can keep their level 80 Lephantis and the newer players can experience the boss and level up their equipment before challenging him on a tougher difficulty. Rewards will differ between the two modes, so veterans will have a reason to play veteran mode.

 

Problem solved and everyone is happy, but this type of suggestion is usually buried very quickly.

Edited by Semshol
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Warframe is also stagnant because there's a huge gap between the power levels of different 'frames, weapons and from the level of our mods. Not to mention long iteration times when you have to go play through a mission from the start every time if you're taken out of the fight.

 

These things make balancing the game for a certain amount of challenge a PitA, where there are some things that are so crazy OP that it makes the game into a joke while some other similar things are pretty useless in comparison, our mod setups for those that scale past level 5 (shields, health, base damage) create a humungous gap between people trying to get into the game and people who have been at it a while, it's all just a big old mess. Some people wielding Boltor+Rhino Primes are complaining that everything is too easy with their rank 10 mods but people with middle of the range weapons/frames/mods are feeling the challenge at the high end already.

 

If DE wants to balance things and create a challenge, they could do with looking at the base mechanics, the instant room clearing abilities and the ones that disable enemies for 30 seconds+ are in no way conducive to creating a challenging game. Neither is having the option to mod up a weapon to 1-shot 90% of the enemies in the game while going full auto. Especially when these are actually cases of people with hundreds of hours in the game who have just overshot the point of reasonable scaling.

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Are you kidding? Requests for better mobility and parkour systems are incredibly common and frequent. There's huge discussion and reviews on level design in their subforum. People want more complexity, and DE has started to provide that in tilesets, but as they said in the recent Devstream it's a balancing act between that and making the tiles accessible.

 

Mobility has always been a hot topic that people vocally want improved.

 

I think you're the one paying too much attention to the complainers, not DE.

 

I disagree. DE "fixed" certain tile sets because there were complains that the Parkour challenges were too much.

 

Back then in the grineer walkways, there were NO paths.

The only way to navigate was to wall run and jump.

Then people whined.

 

They cited faulty parkour controls but back then those mastery rank 7 to rank 8 guys just cleared it just fine and within seconds. 

So WHAT faulty parkour controls ?

DE caved in anyway and fixed that by putting nice steps everywhere.

 

Parkour system and level design is stagnant. Its stagnant because people complain they do not want more parkour elements added to the map designs. These people will say they do not want to have to do flips and wall runs. This is a ninja game, flips and wall runs is a not only a requirement its the basis of what being a ninja is. Stuff like this holds game back. Its like having people play Mario and complaining the game have to many holes you have to jump over. "I just want to walk to the goal, I don't want to have to jump over turtles and stuff."

 

Ah yes, I remember the old Grineer tilesets.

You had to jump and wall run to progress, now there are steps in those rooms because people complaint too much.

Edited by fatpig84
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A complainer complaining about people who complain - how ironic.

 

 

If you had properly read the forums @OP, you would of seen a lot of newer players (I mean literally signed up 5 mins ago) quietly mentioning to DE that for a starter planet Mercury was too hard. U14 gave us and the "newbs" the prologue, but it also made Mercury harder, so DE nerfed the first couple of planets so newer Tenno could start up.

 

Secondly we were all hyped for Kubrows as pets, yet some of us did not like the way they were implemented (adding more RNG to the existing shed loads of RNG), some just accepted it and were happy.

 

We the community do have a say, it's the same for most games. The community will never be happy, some will want some things, while others will want the opposite. That's how it is: look at LoL for a good example (nerfing certain champions or buffing others).

 

Simple answer is DE is doing what it thinks is right. Trying to satisfy the majority; they can only know who the majority are by their posts; the silent majority will obviously not be heard. 

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Complainers are one of the major reason why the weapons aren't balanced.  Balance is framed as "nerfing fun" and a host of other random excuses why damage values shouldn't follow any sort of pattern.  Any enemy which has the capacity to kill you gets slammed as being too powerful, and any enemy which takes more than a single bullet is a "bullet sponge".  I played L4D the other day and was dumbstruck on how much harder it is than warframe.  If DE did Left 4 Dead, Tanks would take 2 bullets and the special infected wouldn't incapacitate you.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I for one is a hard-core gamer. I love a good challenge. The moment Lephantis gave me a good challenge was one of best moments I had playing warframe. It reminded me of those crazy hard bosses from games, like final fantasy, or wild arms. Enemies that lived in a pit with out ragious heath values. Enemies you would have to farm, and rank up very high to challenge them. That's what Lephantis felt like, and it made me happy. And the reward for such a challenge was a cool mod for an awesome sword and board weapon! I was excited because things was the way it supposet to be. If you want really cool mods, you should have to work hard, and I mean damn-hard for them! That battle we had with Lephantis was nothing compared to what you will face in other games.

 

Example of dynamic boss battle

http://youtu.be/pItfgWqjmbU

Example of DPS boss battle aka bullet sponge "Its a viable option for a boss"

http://youtu.be/nIZA3P4hEWI

 

Both are effective as bosses.

We need more of both!

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I'm sorry but there is more to challenge than just adding HP, a block of granite takes more hits to bring down than a master fencer, but isn't a greater challenge to a swordsman. 

 

What is the point of beta if not to get feedback and change things? 

Most game utilize this option for a boss. It is a test of a player endurance!

Edited by OrphanMaker
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DE is running a business, NOT just a game.

 

What is a business about? Scaling and sustainability.

 

Please note, one of the complaints that I think is valid is the fact that the early game is now TOO TOUGH. Mercury used to be easy, it was a nice place for players to get used to the game, but with the recent changes to enemy level, Venus and Mercury are now...pretty hardcore, especially if you're stuck with a Braton and no idea what to do. It will turn players off rather badly I'm afraid.

 

The problem you are describing is not real, and is impossible with the current difficulty scaling. The current system place low ranking player with low ranking players. Next the difficulty is based on the squad number and the squad members rank. If you have a squad of rank 1 players, the enemies will scale to their difficulty level, so what your are describing is not real! And if a low rank player is placed in a squad of high rank player the enemies will scale and become harder, but the veteran players will carry the lesser ranker player.

 

Your wonder how I know this huh. Well first it was described in the Devstream. Last since the difficulty scaling have been implemented, I have carried many new players on planets like mercury and venus. I play mercury and venus all the time to rank new weapons and warframe, so I see noobs all the time and help them along.

 

Many games have utilized this same system. This system is utilized Borderlands.

Edited by OrphanMaker
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A complainer complaining about people who complain - how ironic.

 

 

If you had properly read the forums @OP, you would of seen a lot of newer players (I mean literally signed up 5 mins ago) quietly mentioning to DE that for a starter planet Mercury was too hard. U14 gave us and the "newbs" the prologue, but it also made Mercury harder, so DE nerfed the first couple of planets so newer Tenno could start up.

 

Secondly we were all hyped for Kubrows as pets, yet some of us did not like the way they were implemented (adding more RNG to the existing shed loads of RNG), some just accepted it and were happy.

 

We the community do have a say, it's the same for most games. The community will never be happy, some will want some things, while others will want the opposite. That's how it is: look at LoL for a good example (nerfing certain champions or buffing others).

 

Simple answer is DE is doing what it thinks is right. Trying to satisfy the majority; they can only know who the majority are by their posts; the silent majority will obviously not be heard. 

If you had properly watched the Devstream you would understand the new scaling system. The new scaling system scales the enemies based on the combined squad rank. This difficulty system is implemented in other games like borderlands.

 

Less RNG... This game is free stop complaining. If you want it now then pay for it and support the game!

 

"We the community" -Whats that warframe constitution? "We do have a say" -XD

Majority? We are not the majority us on the forums are the minority of warframe players.

 

"Simple answer is DE is doing what it thinks is right" -Correction DE is doing what you think is right! Nerfing everything so YOU can win! If you watch the Devstream you would see they want buff everything.

 

To be honest, its kinda funny and sad to watch the Devstream, and hear them talk General Sargus Ruk and how people are speed running him and they want to stop it.

Edited by OrphanMaker
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Borderlands is a terrible comparison. Your character's health and damage go up every level, while here health and damage are tied to mods that A) need to be ranked up and B) a new player might not have.

 

Before, Mercury was locked as far as scaling went. If you went there you probably noticed all level 1 and 2 enemies despite you having fully kitted out gear. Now, it's scaling based off player progression which means it's often too hard for new players when they don't have essential mods, or their essential mods are unranked, and enemies are still scaling to them. This was a serious problem.

 

Beyond that, you mentioned being carried by high-ranked players. This is not fun or rewarding for a new player. Many players are turned off from the game because they're placed in with a high ranked players early in the game and it defeats any sense of progression they might have otherwise had. 

 

Now, on to your other points: there is no "community constitution", but use your head here. DE wants us to spend money. We have money, but we only want to spend it on a good game. Therefore DE wants to make a good game so that we spend money. DE can do whatever they want, but at the end of the day they have to make a game that people want to play. That's why the community has a say in things.

 

Finally, DE is by no means listening to every tiny little complaint players have and then changing the game. They play the game too, and they can see just as well as us when something is game breaking or unfair. A good example of this would be all the people calling for infested nerfs right now. Have they been nerfed? No.

 

This thread had a slightly interesting (if flawed) premise at first, but now it's devolved into metacomplaining 

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Challenge is central to keeping a game alive. There are still thousands of people playing the ME3 multiplayer for just that reason. There's never a point where you can't be killed if you make a mistake. There's absolutely no reason for people to believe differently. A lot of the problem for long time players is the lack of difficulty and dynamism from high level enemies. So, I don't think they should be answering to the lowest common denominator. The real issue for me right now is the god awful changes to coloring Warframes. As established by several posts defending parkour. This IS a game about ninjas. Not Ninja Turtle. This sudden change in the way coloring works has made a huge dent in the plausibility of the Warframes themelves. And I have to wonder why they've suddenly decided that ugly and saturated makes more sense for a futuristic stealth killer than the previous colors. But I digress, it isn't really in keeping with the tone of the conversation. Back to my first point. DE needs to quit catering to the cries of the unwashed masses, but they also need to acknowledge when they've crossed a line and be willing to admit it rather doing the PR standard of smiling and insisting that was their intention from the beginning. It's a business and money is king, but its also a sort of unspoken agreement between developer and player. And the player can drop the game in a heartbeat if they feel they've been dismissed by the developer.

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Borderlands is a terrible comparison. Your character's health and damage go up every level, while here health and damage are tied to mods that A) need to be ranked up and B) a new player might not have.

 

This thread had a slightly interesting (if flawed) premise at first, but now it's devolved into metacomplaining 

Yeah you are right.

 

Here is the honest truth!

 

The biggest problem this game have is the revive system. The revive system is holding this game back. The life system should not be and should have never been based around platinum. This is what us breaking the game. Since this game revive system is based around platinum players can not afford to die, literally! If the revive system was based around credits like borderlands, or hand a system where you could build revives in your foundry people could afford to die. Then we would not care for the enemies scaling off the chart! If we could build revives for, lets say the cost of forma, and have as many as we can build and buy, but would only be able to carry 4 per mission. The difficulty would be greatly fixed!

Edited by OrphanMaker
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The 'buffs' to bosses only turned them into further bullet sponges. When people ask for difficulty, we do not mean bullet sponges. We mean things that require strategy. Bullet sponges are artificial difficulty, and are not the fun kind of difficulty at that.

 

I hear a lot of people parrot this, and every time someone does I pose this question: If an enemy died in one hit, how challenging can it actually be? Enemies, especially boss enemies, need to be able to be alive long enough that their actual mechanics can BE challenging. Bullet sponge has a legitimate reason for existing and actually goes hand in hand with what every single person who has ever uttered a sentence against it actually wants.

Bosses need a "hard mode" with better drop tables. I don't mean Nightmare either; Nightmare is harder because it imposes weird rules. I mean the bosses are actually more aggressive, more hp, more damage, the works.  

Edited by Acos
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I hear a lot of people parrot this, and every time someone does I pose this question: If an enemy died in one hit, how challenging can it actually be? Enemies, especially boss enemies, need to be able to be alive long enough that their actual mechanics can BE challenging. Bullet sponge has a legitimate reason for existing. 

False dicotomy.  An enemy does not need to die in one hit to not be a bullet sponge.

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Bullet Sponge Enemies are good.

 

They are implemented in every game! They are used to test a players endurance. This game may seem like an action game but in all honesty is a action rpg, and like all rpg-games their is a super over power damage-sponge. Okay, if you just want to discuss. Normal action games, well you will find the same thing. All games utilize damage sponge bosses for difficulty, but these enemies test the players in many other ways that is dynamic and changing. This is why Lephantis is and was the best enemy in this game, the only other good bosses in this game is the Hyena Pack. And General Sargus Ruk, if you want to mention bullet sponge, one of the fanciest but worst bullet sponges in the game...

 

Example of an Extreme bullet sponge Boss

http://youtu.be/JwzUa7hagMs

 

Example of Dynamic Boss

http://youtu.be/ielEYoG-X5Y

Edited by OrphanMaker
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I think DEs current vision is to provide the tools and options for people to play the game according to their own playstyle. For example some people love the parkour and mobility system and want to see more of it, and to see it expanded on, while other people want to see it completely changed. They aren't as interested in the current mobility system and don't want to be forced to learn arcane techniques in order to stay competitive with the game. And I think DE is paying attention to all the types of people who play their game, and are trying to expand upon the feedback without gutting too many systems and pleasing one group while alienating the other. I think this approach is admirable. But it takes a lot more time to perfect in the long run rather than if DE focused on pushing one particular vision. So that's why I think changes come slowly and that's why it may appear stagnant. But there's always something new around the corner.

Edited by Ryjeon
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