Please Make All Prime Weapons Equal.

[PeripheralVisionary]

Umm you apparently never played an MMO or any game ever, what would be the point of all weapons being equal?

Errr, have you ever farmed for any of the primes? They all require the same degree of work.

Think about it. He said ALL PRIMES.

Edited July 28, 2014 by PeripheralVisionary

[Arabaxus]

Errr, have you ever farmed for any of the primes? They all require the same degree of work.

Think about it. He said ALL PRIMES.

 

I own Latron Prime, Braton Prime (not built), Boar Prime, Boltor Prime, Burston Prime, and Paris Prime.

Boltor Prime and Paris Prime were for me, clearly the most difficult ones to obtain (This is before Tower 4). Latron and Braton were much easier (Through playing other random void missions, I acquired all the parts, without having to marathon T3MD like I did for Boltor Prime BP), and I had countless parts for Boar to the point I could build three or four at any given time until I sold the parts for Credits.

 

So no, they do not require the same degree of work. Think about it for a moment. A Sicarus Prime, needing three parts, vs. AKBronco Prime, which needs 9 parts and twice the Orokin Cells?

 

So no, your logic behind all prime weapons needing the same degree of work is clearly flawed.

 

Also, proof that I am not just blowing steam out of my arse when I say I've farmed for all those weapons:

 

All of these weapons, with exception of Lex Prime, were built/had all parts collected prior to Tower 4.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Arabaxus

[(PSN)deathfrombelow5]

The prime weapons should be balanced among themselves. The problem is that there is such a performance gap between low-end prime weapons (such as the braton or latron) and high-end prime weapons (such as the boltor and paris). The gap between these groups needs to be lessened, preferably by buffing those weapons in the lower end. 

 

 

Boltar Prime (Weapon 1) vs Latron Prime (Weapon 2)

 

Does Latron Prime need a nerf too?

 

Can't tell if you're arguing for the prime versions, normal versions, or both.

Honestly, I have used both the Latron and Boltor, and I think the Boltor is a far superior weapon. Keep in mind that I used the Latron before the buff it got and I never used a catalyst/forma on it (this was the first prime weapon I got) but the firerate of the Latron made it a poor weapon for clearing out rooms. 

[fatpig84]

Some prime weapons need a buff.  Other prime weapons need a nerf.

 

Usually prime weapons receive mild buffs over their vanilla counterparts in all fields.

 

Usually the damage per-shot boost for a prime upgrade is ~25-30%.  The boltor prime received a 125% damage per shot boost....no wonder it is head and shoulders above its competition.  It almost looks like it should have only had a 25% damage boost and someone made a critical fail when calculating the stats for the boltor prime.

 

 

So you avocating to nerf Lex Prime and Sicarus Prime as well ?

Same build.

 

Lex

http://goo.gl/z62sT7

 

 

Lex Prime

http://goo.gl/ti3dCg

 

 

If you are so insistent that all Prime upgrades are only 25% better.

You are very very wrong in most cases. It is only the Braton Prime now that has the luxury of being 25% better.

The rest are faaaar ahead of their originals.

 

 

Sicarus

http://goo.gl/FmOSjH

 

 

Sicarus Prime

http://goo.gl/dItTBH

 

 

 

Latron

http://goo.gl/ZiodNh

 

 

Latron Prime

http://goo.gl/5dA7UR

Edited July 29, 2014 by fatpig84

[Quizel]

Honestly, I have used both the Latron and Boltor, and I think the Boltor is a far superior weapon. Keep in mind that I used the Latron before the buff it got and I never used a catalyst/forma on it (this was the first prime weapon I got) but the firerate of the Latron made it a poor weapon for clearing out rooms. 

(you're not alone in this thought process I'm pretty sure but....)

 

Latron P may not have a high crit chance, but it does have a high crit multiplier meaning you should be aiming for the head against high hp targets. (x2 for head shot and another x2 for crits)

Also, little known fact I believe, procs also have a x2 multiplier. Since latron has high proc chance and good crit, go for the head with apropriate builds >.<.

 

2ndly, latron P can dump it's clip like 50%+ faster than boltor prime, meaning Latron P burst dps pretty significant while boltor prime burst dps is a less significant measure- for lack of good words. Some players may only care about burst dps in many situations.

 

Here's a comparison of builds I may actually use (shred->puncture through mods included) that considers hs's only and burst dps (reload times set to zero).

btw, boltor P is on the left.

From this we can see.... Latron needs a major buff to be competitive yes?

Edited July 29, 2014 by Quizel

[Azawarau]

The prime weapons should be balanced among themselves. The problem is that there is such a performance gap between low-end prime weapons (such as the braton or latron) and high-end prime weapons (such as the boltor and paris). The gap between these groups needs to be lessened, preferably by buffing those weapons in the lower end. 

 

Honestly, I have used both the Latron and Boltor, and I think the Boltor is a far superior weapon. Keep in mind that I used the Latron before the buff it got and I never used a catalyst/forma on it (this was the first prime weapon I got) but the firerate of the Latron made it a poor weapon for clearing out rooms. 

 

 

(you're not alone in this thought process I'm pretty sure but....)

 

Latron P may not have a high crit chance, but it does have a high crit multiplier meaning you should be aiming for the head against high hp targets. (x2 for head shot and another x2 for crits)

Also, little known fact I believe, procs also have a x2 multiplier. Since latron has high proc chance and good crit, go for the head with apropriate builds >.<.

 

2ndly, latron P can dump it's clip like 50%+ faster than boltor prime, meaning Latron P burst dps pretty significant while boltor prime burst dps is a less significant measure- for lack of good words. Some players may only care about burst dps in many situations.

 

Here's a comparison of builds I may actually use (shred->puncture through mods included) that considers hs's only and burst dps (reload times set to zero).

btw, boltor P is on the left.

From this we can see.... Latron needs a major buff to be competitive yes?

I dont have the boltor prime but im a huge Latron prime fan and honestly i think its great where its at

 

Its selling point is its high DPH and ammo efficiency

 

Youll never have to sacrifice damage for ammo efficiency no matter how high the waves get unlike the boltor P

 

Its not a room clearer but with good aim and a fitting build it certainly stands on its own

[Innocent_Flower]

You can use burst fire/single shot with the boltor to save ammo. 

 

Also, If you're using corrosive projection, you can continue doing this. 

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

Burston, latron, sicarus, braton and boar need a buff. 

Reaper and ankyros need to become much better. But the same kinda runs true for their entire weapon classes. Scythes are bad. Fists aren't great. 

Boltor needs a nerf. 

Bo needs to be comparable to orthos. Sure the impact damage rather than slash would mean that It's better for corpus and worse for infested/grineer, but it should be done. 

 

 

In my opinion the paris held the best translation into a prime weapon. 25% damage increase, 25% crit damage increase, Slightly faster reload and a faster arrow on a better flight path. Obviously, not all weapons can do it like this, but in my opinion you realy shouldn't have more than a 50% damage increase over the normal tenno weapon (and I'd argue that some weapons primed aren't tenno, like the braton) 

 

If the gun is still too weak with a 50% damage increase (and other niceties like clip size or reload speed) then realy you should just buff the Tenno version too. 

Good man, strongly agreed!

[Niryco]

I think It'd just be nice to have all these 'end game' weapons that are so difficult to craft actually all equally worthy of 'the end game'. and not have one or two make the rest obsolete. 

 

Why not just rely on the Lens system to balance all this? Ask the devs to provide weaker weapons right now with more focus options when the focus system is released compared to stronger weapons.

 

Like that everyone can keep their guns the way it is and it is all justified. Also provide focuses only available to prime weapons, that way prime weapons can also stand out.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Jacate

[Quizel]

You can use burst fire/single shot with the boltor to save ammo. 

Boltar Prime is a great weapon agreed (I use it quite often). And it does have fairly decent ammo efficiency, but math doesn't lie (when performed corrected >.>).

 

 

Top cut and paste was from head shots only burst dps example which was shown a few post above while bottom cut and paste was from non-head shots sustained dps example shown a many more post back.

 

From this we can see that, Boltor Prime doesn't have the worst ammo efficiency compared to the Latron Prime.  However, Latron Prime takes the cake, especially when dealing head shots only.

 

****Note: Found a mistake in the est. dmg per shot from previous post(s) (it was dividing by clip size incorrectly), that is why it is different from shown values above. Usually didn't pay attention to estimated dmg per shot >.> and I was using a bow most the time while creating the spread sheet. It is fixed now me thinks.

 

 

I should have also mentioned that the "burst" dps example isn't the best description-but not necessarily wrong either.  Being that 53% the dps on the Latron Prime is coming from a proc that takes 8 seconds to deal its full damage, it's somewhat odd to call that burst dps. But, it is part of the total burst damage the weapon is capable of dealing and, therefor, belongs in the calculation. 

Edited July 30, 2014 by Quizel

[Innocent_Flower]

Stop just bringing up Numbers for this stuff. 

 

There's this guy called durkheim who compared the suicides between catholics and non catholics with just numbers, and from that assumed that Faith and religious support prevents suicide. In reality Catholics had lower recorded suicide rates because catholics were realy against suicide and preferred to mark all those deaths off as accidents. It's the same with The latron-boltor argument we have here. Sure the damage might be comparable, but you're also forgetting things like: 

 

Boltor having punch through

Boltor having ragdol. 

Boltor being full auto

Boltor not relying on precision. Also making it better with split chamber and heavy cal. 

 

Fact is, If there's a crowd of corrupted in front of you, a latron user will need to aim before each shot. A boltor user can just hold down M1 and shake the mouse a little. 

 

Besides, Stop using the latron as a red herring. The Braton, boar and burston are still issues. 

Edited July 30, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[Hueminator]

By equal he probably meant all primes should get the same formula apply

 

Ex:  All prime have 10% more damage. 10% faster reload time, +5% more status proc,  +10% crit etc. than their counter part

Edited July 30, 2014 by Hueminator

[Innocent_Flower]

The nightman, Right, right, you're totaly right... it's just that i feel like my latron is totaly inferior to my boltor, but i must be wrong because numbers 

 

 

Now, care to use numbers to justify how braton, burston and boar aren't comparatively S#&$, please? 

Edited July 30, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[Innocent_Flower]

By equal he probably meant all primes should get the same formula apply

 

Ex:  All prime have 10% more damage. 10% faster reload time, +5% more status proc,  +10% crit etc.

Not at all. 

 

That wouldn't work for weapons. Some weapons rely on crit, others damage.  Furthermore you've gotta consider where weapons started at. I mean the boltor is made by the tenno. The braton is an outdated corpus relic on sale to the masses. You're not just gonna improve those at the same rate. 

 

 

Paris prime is the best translation of tenno to prime. 50% more damage, faster arrows, better arc. slightly faster reload. It feels much better to use than the paris, it's stronger, but it doesn't feel OP.  But for the boltor, 25% extra crit damage doesn't mean much.

 

I'd say you'd want more of a 50% damage increase for tenno weapons, alongside things like clip size, reload speed or projectile speed increases. And if they're not even; buff the tenno weapons. 

 

If they're not tenno weapons (Braton, burston, lex) and about 50% isn't enough, make a tenno version of the weapon that's an upgrade, then make a prime improvement of that.  

Edited July 30, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[Hueminator]

Not at all. 

 

That wouldn't work for weapons. Some weapons rely on crit, others damage.  Furthermore you've gotta consider where weapons started at. I mean the boltor is made by the tenno. The braton is an outdated corpus relic on sale to the masses. You're not just gonna improve those at the same rate. 

If it works by % then those weapon that already have high crit will still have high crit, high damage will gain more damage, hIgh stat % will still have high %

 

You can also have a formula like (base+5) then *1.1

 

Let take stat proc chance:

 

Normal is 5%==>  fully mod with the 3 dual stats dmg (180% proc) ==> 14%

 

Prime will be (5+5)*1.1 = 11% ==> 30.8%

 

Let take a look at high status chance (20%)

 

Normal = 20%==> fully mod ==> 56%

 

Prime will be (20+5)*1.1 = 27.5 ==> fully mod ==> 77%

 

 

In conclusion, DE will still have to play around with their math to come up with the right formula.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Hueminator

[Innocent_Flower]

You can't just make an unchangeable formula for everything. You need to put calculative thought behind each change. It's not difficult. 

Edited July 30, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[Hueminator]

Doesn't have to be same formula for everything, but can be a same formula for each categories like:

 

Damage = (base*1.1) + 5

Stat proc = (base+5)*1.1

Crit chance = Base + 10

Crit multipler = base +.5

 

Total damage is the sum of slash, puncture and impact.  Then you can play around with the numbers as long as the sum = the formula suggest.

 

Ex: dmg 30

 

10 impact

10 Puncture

10 slash

 

Apply formula = (30*1.1) +5 = 38

 

Now you can either make it

 

13 impact

13 puncture

12 slash

 

or

 

15 impact

10 puncture

13 slash

 

and more possibility

 

This would work for most weapon except pure elemental type but I don't think any of them are tenno.

 

Now DE can make a separate formula for wraith and vandals

Edited July 30, 2014 by Hueminator

[W4RM3CH4N1C]

People are really getting wound up eh.... lets go back to the general theme? I.e. overall the prime weapons need to be better balanced amongst themselves and need to not be outclassed by market weapons, a rank lock would partially solve this? Who knows...

 

IF say the boltor etc was ONLY available on say a "T5" mission then you could claim it's tougher to get, running the same mission over and over does not make it more difficult - just more boring :) (well maybe more difficult to put up with the grind)

 

I WANT to use the Braton more, i prefer how it sounds and feels and I'm sick of the boltor having to be pulled out sometimes just cos I know it'll be the one that gets the job done *easily*, I'm not lazy, I'm a realist, If i'm in a surv, I know these things can sometimes run over, and you end up wanting to stay longer, you don't take a weapon you KNOW will start to get weak before you're even half way through the run....., again, i WANT to take my braton but logic dictates I'm there for rewards so why risk it?

 

I feel all the weapons should easily be situational but should also be made equal in terms of how high their situational strengths scale.

 

Just imagine a scenario where the team has to work together (shocking I know) the boar has to get in close to drop sheilds and the braton comes in for it's nice slash damage, another enemy type and we've got the boltor hitting it's armour and a melee procc'ing corrosive, whatever the dealio there are too many people using the same ONE weapon because most others pale in comparison.

 

Personally I think it's sad when people just use the same gear over and over, and those lower players with less forma's/high level mods are restricted as well - because to make other weapons shine you gotta sling some serious cawrs in there...

 

TDLTR? (too damn lazy to read?) Why would we want diversity on the battlefield?, Why would we want people to have a choice of guns that are viable? Why would we want people to have to work their way up to awesome weapons? Why do we want to be able to build more "unique-chic" - Sheeeeeet - I dunno....

[Arabaxus]

I like how people complain about Boltor Prime being overpowered and therefore it should be nerfed to other Prime weapon levels. Just because there is a stand-out weapon doesn't mean your other weapons are invalidated. Just because Boltor Prime is "better" than Latron Prime on a spreadsheet doesn't mean Latron Prime isn't a "good" weapon, one that can outperform Boltor Prime due to its high accuracy and ability to score consistent headshot bonus damage. Just because Boltor Prime is better on a spreadsheet doesn't make Paris Prime one of the most powerful bows in the game, that can deal damage in one arrow equivalent to 20 rounds from a Boltor Prime. 

 

The Boltor Prime, on paper, is clearly the "best" weapon, but that is only if the status of "best" weapon considered through calculated DPS by a computer. It's hard to argue it is not one of the easiest to handle while effective weapons, as fully automatic with decent damage per shot and high fire rate makes it a pick up and go weapon, but does that make it the "best" weapon? Not necessarily. If we had a weapon that dealt 30,000 DPS but was limited to a single target at a time and chewed through ammunition twice as fast as the Amprex, would it be considered overpowered? Some would say yes, continuing to stout that any weapon having that sort of damage output is overpowered, since ammunition can simply be restored through Ammo Restores. Others would argue no, the ammunition economy is a big enough downside balancer. The second highest damage output weapon in the game, falling just short of Boltor Prime is the Amprex. Other than terrible ammunition economy, what are it's upsides and downsides? It has a limited range is one of its other downsides, but it has ridiculously high status chance, ability to chain through multiple enemies, which allows for ridiculous crowd control and continual status infliction on multiple targets, and is hit-scan. Would we argue that Amprex is overpowered if Boltor Prime were non-existent? Likely not, considering the basis of arguments made here, the forum community is mostly on the side of ammunition economy being a big enough downside, even though one can argue ammunition restores exist and are cheap to craft. 

 

The Angstrum for another example, deals ridiculous AoE damage, has stupendous ammunition efficiency, and is easily arguable as one of the best secondaries available in the game, along with being much more common than something like the Boltor Prime, since Angstrum blueprint is in the shop. You don't see nearly as many threads on Angstrum being overpowered, because the DPS isn't as high as Boltor Prime's on a spreadsheet, (though it is only off by perhaps 1500 or so). So I ask all you people that call out Boltor Prime to be overpowered but not Angstrum, what justifies Angstrum's DPS, AoE damage, ridiculous ammo efficiency, status as a secondary, ease of acquiring (no need to farm for Prime parts, pick up BP from shop and go, not even needing a Forma to craft like Marelok), other than the fact that the Boltor may have better sustained DPS on a single target? Does that even matter if Angstrum can as easily dish out similar damage output to multiple enemies without expending nearly as much ammunition? What justifies the MIRV pistol that doesn't justify an Assault Rifle with high sustained single target DPS and average to above average ammunition economy? 

 

There is no debate however, that Braton Prime needs a buff to be considered a Prime weapon, when it is so blatantly obvious since a shop, Mastery Rank 2 Karak can outperform it, and it's already common knowledge that shotguns, alongside snipers, need a complete rework considering a weapon limited to close quarters, since damage falloff and spread under current mechanics, doesn't fit into this game and the way it plays and handles.

 

If you don't believe me:

 

Angstrum:

 

Boltor Prime (maximized DPS, with Speed Trigger, at the expense of ammo economy):

 

What Warframe-Builder tells us, and is what we all seem to obsess over is the number at the bottom labeled "Sustained DPS", when at close look we can see that one Angstrum shot deals roughly the same damage as 15-16 Boltor Bolts. Warframe Builder doesn't take into account Headshot Multipliers, AoE damage output, and other rather important utility related things for weapons, because these are harder or cannot be calculated. Before you call out something is overpowered, I ask you to please do the adequate research to put sustenance behind your argument, especially when you decide to argue that a poster child, which has been pointed out before, over and over, has a problem and decide to ignore other facts that may contribute to the argument but not to your point of view.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Arabaxus

[Vitras]

I entirely agree. They're all primes, so they should all be very good weapons. I've been using my boltor prime quite a bit and it's starting to bothering me. I wish the burston would get a little buff to help, but that's just a thought.

I really doubt anything will happen though, as one of this game's weak points is balance.

 

There is nothing wrong with the current prime weapons. I would like to see a buff to some of the less powerful weapons i.e. Reaper Prime, Sicarus Prime and Boar Prime however they are all still good weapons that do not need changing one bit. It's like my good friend Zakharon just said, what would be the point of all weapons being equal? I mean sure some parts are harder to get than others and it shows seeing as those weapons are actually a lot more difficult to get than others (Less so with the new T4 keys) An example being the Bo Prime Handle or the Paris Prime Upper Limb. lots of people struggle like hell to find one in comparison to other parts for the less powerful weapons like the Sicarus Prime or the Reaper Prime and this also shows in the price in trading for those parts. Long story short stop complaining about something that isn't broken and instead focus on whining about DE releasing a weapon that has good stats AND looks good.

 

TL;DR:

Prime weapons are fine as they are, they are not all equally difficult to get  and it would be pointless making them equal.

As I said before, one of this game's weak points is balance. The primes are supposed to be equally difficult to get (ha). Therefore, they should also be equally powerful.

[MechaTails]

So you get to choose between them without forcibly handicapping yourself. The answer is so painfully obvious that I'm curious as to why you would even ask this question.

 

 

This isn't a black and white issue, there are no right answers, only different philosophies among players in gameplay and game design.

[carbondragon]

As a lot of other people said, getting them equally viable would mean you could just take a Latron Prime, Sicarus Prime, and Dakra Prime to any mission you see fit without ever getting any of the other weapons. And balancing them against certain factions would make some better than others, as far as regular missions (or even void missions) go, due to the lack of Infested outside of Dark Sectors and Derelicts.

 

I'd like to just see them balanced against their regular counterparts, or at least all have the same buff/debuff style.

For instance, I looked at the Lex Prime last night. All the changes over the regular Lex are for the better. While the Bronco Prime trades reload time and rpm for pure damage and shots in a clip. Just seems weird to me that some are strict upgrades while others offer tradeoffs that tend to lean toward being an upgrade.

[Innocent_Flower]

Low tier weapons are low tier.

But they're not? You've got to grind for four parts in the void and spend TEN CELLS for them. What kind of 'low teir' weapon uses ten @(*()&#036; cells and four unique parts? 

[Quizel]

Besides, Stop using the latron as a red herring. The Braton, boar and burston are still issues.

Fair enough.

Shotguns are getting a buff apparently, so lets leave Boar P out of the argument.

Arguing that devs need to buff the hell out of low mastery rank weapons so that 50% dps increase brings all Primes inline with other end game weapons is a stretch. I think low rank gear needs to um, suck. Despite I'd love to have a Lato worthy of 40 min into t4 survival. This is a debatable and there isn't really a right or wrong answer.

However, arguing to buff Braton P and Sicarus P to be more competitive with other end game weapons is a far less heated debate and more reasonable. Burston Prime could use a little love as well but not quite as much as the other two- especially cause I really like to use it ;) but really I'd understand if a dev straight up said the Burston P is balanced perfectly.

The question now is, exactly how competitive should these crummy prime weapons be with other end game weapons? The various game mechanics and game design philosophy can quickly skew the weapon's effectiveness in combat wildly.

 

As a lot of other people said, getting them equally viable would mean you could just take a Latron Prime, Sicarus Prime, and Dakra Prime to any mission you see fit without ever getting any of the other weapons. 

 

 

I have sort of the same thought.  Bring them into a T4 exterminate fully ranked, 6-7 forma'ed, and a reasonable build that suits the weapon and void.  If a Tenno significantly struggles, I'd strongly feel something needs to change. (Personally can't test the Braton P or Sicarus P as I haven't even potato'ed them yet- probably the only 2 primes I haven't >.>).

 

The weapon doesn't have to perform long into a T4 endless mission, just well enough to complete a basic exterminate mission.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Quizel

[Innocent_Flower]

The boltor prime is pretty easy to obtain though, The rarest part, the blueprint, i've recieved four or five times over. Now that might just be the games I've been playing, but for me it's been easy to obtain and you can pick it up and never need to build another prime. 

 

 

Now price doesn't equal quality. The normal lex is very good. The supra is still bad. But it'd be nicer if it did equal quality. Prime weapons are mostly of the same quality (mostly)

 

I'd totaly love to have the devs make three versions of the sicarus. A cheap colonist one that's 20k credits (replacing what we have now) , a great tenno one and then a fantastic orokin one worthy of ten cells. Something similar with the braton realy. The S#&$ty starter. The ok corpus one you buy, a great tenno version with a distinct tenno style, then the prime version being worth ten cells.   

Edited July 31, 2014 by Innocent_Flower