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Please Make All Prime Weapons Equal.


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But they're not? You've got to grind for four parts in the void and spend TEN CELLS for them. What kind of 'low teir' weapon uses ten @(*()$ cells and four unique parts? 

 

Poorly built ones. Just because something has a high cost does not automatically equate good weapon or high tier. They are low tier weapons.

 

Assuming you do mean Braton, Burston and Boar Prime, you can actually make good builds out of them (I have for Burston personally), just takes knowledge and build experience. Perhaps you should take some time to use them, make different builds out of them and then come to the forums to critique them, rather than just skipping part a and coming directly to z.

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Besides, Stop using the latron as a red herring. The Braton, boar and burston are still issues.

Fair enough.

Shotguns are getting a buff apparently, so lets leave Boar P out of the argument.

Arguing that devs need to buff the hell out of low mastery rank weapons so that 50% dps increase brings all Primes inline with other end game weapons is a stretch. I think low rank gear needs to um, suck. Despite I'd love to have a Lato worthy of 40 min into t4 survival. This is a debatable and there isn't really a right or wrong answer.

However, arguing to buff Braton P and Sicarus P to be more competitive with other end game weapons is a far less heated debate and more reasonable. Burston Prime could use a little love as well but not quite as much as the other two- especially cause I really like to use it ;) but really I'd understand if a dev straight up said the Burston P is balanced perfectly.

The question now is, exactly how competitive should these crummy prime weapons be with other end game weapons? The various game mechanics and game design philosophy can quickly skew the weapon's effectiveness in combat wildly.

 

As a lot of other people said, getting them equally viable would mean you could just take a Latron Prime, Sicarus Prime, and Dakra Prime to any mission you see fit without ever getting any of the other weapons. 

 

 

I have sort of the same thought.  Bring them into a T4 exterminate fully ranked, 6-7 forma'ed, and a reasonable build that suits the weapon and void.  If a Tenno significantly struggles, I'd strongly feel something needs to change. (Personally can't test the Braton P or Sicarus P as I haven't even potato'ed them yet- probably the only 2 primes I haven't >.>).

 

The weapon doesn't have to perform long into a T4 endless mission, just well enough to complete a basic exterminate mission.

Edited by Quizel
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The boltor prime is pretty easy to obtain though, The rarest part, the blueprint, i've recieved four or five times over. Now that might just be the games I've been playing, but for me it's been easy to obtain and you can pick it up and never need to build another prime. 

 

 

Now price doesn't equal quality. The normal lex is very good. The supra is still bad. But it'd be nicer if it did equal quality. Prime weapons are mostly of the same quality (mostly)

 

I'd totaly love to have the devs make three versions of the sicarus. A cheap colonist one that's 20k credits (replacing what we have now) , a great tenno one and then a fantastic orokin one worthy of ten cells. Something similar with the braton realy. The S#&$ty starter. The ok corpus one you buy, a great tenno version with a distinct tenno style, then the prime version being worth ten cells.   

Edited by Innocent_Flower
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I'd totaly love to have the devs make three versions of the sicarus. A cheap colonist one that's 20k credits (replacing what we have now) , a great tenno one and then a fantastic orokin one worthy of ten cells. Something similar with the braton realy. The S#&$ty starter. The ok corpus one you buy, a great tenno version with a distinct tenno style, then the prime version being worth ten cells.   

I can agree with this thought process. Sadly, if the dev's implement it, it'll come across as the dev's being lazy and greedy to get players to spend plat for more weapon space-for those who want to collect them all.

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I agree with you, and to those that disagree need to seriously and critically consider the consequences of this game if it continues to be unbalanced. Don't disagree for your own selfish sake, but for the overall fun of the game and all players.

Edited by Aurora_Imperium
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   I completely agree with you. Throughout the updates of Warframe, there have been several go-to weapons that are painfully obvious, overpowered weapons that EVERYBODY wants and gets; and eventually you see those weapons in every damn match. First, it was the Hek, then Akbolto, then Soma, and now Boltor Prime; all of which overshadowed their similar counterparts in every way. This anomaly turns the game's diversity stale, repetitive and trivial(even more than it already is). Give new and old players a wide variety of weapons and the choice to play with a certain weapon that is not useless in every way to a very similar gun. I mean, seeing too many Novas and Somas with Carriers was just damn boring and felt unoriginal back in Update 11-12.

 

     The first few generations of weapons are very fun and interesting, but their obsolete stats force you not to use them anymore. Instead of releasing newer weapons that are always better than previous ones, make more creative, innovative types of weapons, or variations of existing weapons that have the slightest tweaked stats to suit unique playstyles. Every single weapon should have a downside that other weapons excel at, and vice-versa. DE is screwing people in the @$$ when they release a weapon that is much better than a player's Forma'ed weapon they spent much time improving, using and loving it. And giving the newer, better weapons a higher mastery rank does not justify its ridiculous stats, because eventually everyone will have it. 

 

     Every single update does this stuff, and that is not how you extend the game by making players grind for a new one. I appreciate the developers extremely, but sometimes I just wonder what the hell are the warframe/weapon devs are thinking when they create these new content without careful consideration of all the arsenal as a whole. A lot of these concerns I could have done a better job at balancing, etc. Th direction of better weapons every time is shaping the game into one big @$$ farming & grinding guild' think about it. This issue can sprout to many other problems with the game, but I'll stop ranting here.

Edited by Aurora_Imperium
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 Instead of releasing newer weapons that are always better than previous ones, make more creative, innovative types of weapons, or variations of existing weapons that have the slightest tweaked stats to suit unique playstyles. 

 

I see them doing this all the time. With every new weapon that isn't a prime...

In the end, it's beta so you can't really be tossing out claims that DE is purely power creeping-yet.  They're releasing weapons and with appropriate dps proportional to its theme and badazz-ness. 

 

Lets take a moment and look at a reference grade weapon called the Synapse.  It has been around much longer than Boltor P. The only down side is limited reach, which isn't always an issue.

 

Orange Weapon 1: Boltor P

Yellow Weapon 2: Synapse

**Note: Grineer is given a default armor value of 1 for easy comparison.

 

You'll see that synapse is very competitive dps across all factions except for maybe proto shields.

Given Synapse has limited range, you could argue Boltor P is better. However... lets also look at a comparison if we consider head shots only.

 

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Back words power creep?

 

Granted yes, they implemented red crits recently which helped the Synapse quite a bit. However, we're arguing about whether or not the weapons we multi-forma'ed long ago are being out shined by new tech.  It isn't the case. Dread and Paris Prime show similar (in the case of dread, significant)

dominance over the Boltor Prime when considering head shots and both weapons have been around since like U10 or U9 -I don't feel like looking it up right now >.>. Latron Prime gets sick dps and is also a hit scan weapon.

 

I'll close by saying I get your point Aurora and sometimes I feel that way too-especially with aoe weapons.  But just remember the game is in beta and as the game evolves the arsenal will evolve with it. We can't have power creep until we have a finished arsenal >.>.

Edited by Quizel
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As far as primaries goes:

 

Braton Prime is REALLY in need of a buff to bring it "back to speed". It is completely overshadowed by practically all of the other primes.

- Boltor is arguably the Master Jack of Trades, having very good DPS, good ammo efficiency, and good accuracy despite being projectile.

- Paris Prime offers ungodly single shot damage, allowing it to take down almost anything in one shot.

- Latron Prime gives excellent ammo efficiency and range capability.

- Burston Prime, despite being weaker, still has the niche of having greater crowd control than Latron while offering similar range capability.

- Boar is a ridiculous DPS shotgun at close enough range.

 

Braton Prime is completely outclassed by Boltor Prime at close range and outclassed by Burston and Latron Prime at high ranges. The DPS doesn't even begin to compare. On top of that, it has no polarity (Boar also doesn't, but shotgun has much lower cost mods). I'm not asking for Braton to become a top weapon like the Boltor is, but it needs to do FAR MORE than half its damage to make it worth it. Because right now, even if I missed HALF of Boltor Prime's shots, I still get more damage out of it than 100% accuracy on Braton Prime. Like Latron before it, I am all for a 50% damage buff, because that's almost the minimum for it to even be useful.

 

Boar Prime, if the DE really want to fix it, is pretty simple: Remove fall-off on shotguns. Seriously, there isn't much of a point to this now that most shotguns are outclassed as weapons. And for what its worth, outside of Brakk (a sidearm shotgun with access to much better mods), the only other shotguns that are considered end-game are Phage and Drakgoon, both of which has a secondary fire that allows the guns to concentrate their shots and ignore fall-off.

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Boar Prime, if the DE really want to fix it, is pretty simple: Remove fall-off on shotguns. 

I found this to be a interesting mechanic-it truly separates them from other weapon types.  To buff shotguns, I was thinking if your target is point blank (ideal to make all pellets hit the target anyway) to do massively more dmg.  Of course, doubling or tripling the base damage would essentially have a very similar effect >.< only the range would be extended a bit further than the point blank distance.

Edited by Quizel
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The boltor prime is pretty easy to obtain though, The rarest part, the blueprint, i've recieved four or five times over. Now that might just be the games I've been playing, but for me it's been easy to obtain and you can pick it up and never need to build another prime. 

 

 

Now price doesn't equal quality. The normal lex is very good. The supra is still bad. But it'd be nicer if it did equal quality. Prime weapons are mostly of the same quality (mostly)

 

I'd totaly love to have the devs make three versions of the sicarus. A cheap colonist one that's 20k credits (replacing what we have now) , a great tenno one and then a fantastic orokin one worthy of ten cells. Something similar with the braton realy. The S#&$ty starter. The ok corpus one you buy, a great tenno version with a distinct tenno style, then the prime version being worth ten cells.   

 

Did you receive the Blueprints before or after Tower 4 was implemented? Because before Tower 4 the blueprint was much more difficult to obtain, similar to how Rhino Prime Chassis was difficult to obtain, and now is worth almost nothing.

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when I get bored and move to try other guns, I want them to be different, prime or otherwise.

what I find far more bothersome then finding parts and mats is the fact that some players will nag or blatantly make fun of people for using things they cant or don't see as good. 

>-> 

lean how to play with different things, rather then jest one type. it will be more fun I promise you.

 

 

not all gear / prime gear should be the same.

that would make it boring. 

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What if you realy love shotguns. So you grab yourself a boar.  Or maybe a strun prime further down the updates. 

 

Will you be able to compete in kills with a team using boltors? No. You'd struggle far more with the ever increasing health, shield and armour pools.  and if you had a tigris prime, you'd still struggle because although you do more damage per shot, the boltor does more DPS even in close quatres and is more competent at taking out both heavy and light opponents. 

 

Why the hell does it matter if you "cant compete in kills". It's a coop game, and everyone gets all the loot. If your problem is that you want to use a gun that you like the look and feel of, but players are killing things before you can get to use it, did it ever occur to you that it has NOTHING TO DO with the weapon design and EVERYTHING TO DO with the level and mission design.

 

If you bring a shotgun to an open plain with people with snipers, of course you won't kill anything. If you bring a nade launcher into a sewer and everyone else brings shotguns, you will blow you own &amp;#&#33; up every 5 seconds. If you bring a sniper rifle into enclosed spaces, instead of say pistols, you will probably even find that you can't shoot anything purely based on the fact that the far end of the gun barrel is actually sticking through the other side of the enemy.

 

You are basically complaining that - and I have said this before - DE has given us an entire level full of nails to bang in, and everyone is using hammers, but you feel that you should be able to use your shovel.

 

No. Everything working as intended.

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I found this to be a interesting mechanic-it truly separates them from other weapon types.  To buff shotguns, I was thinking if your target is point blank (ideal to make all pellets hit the target anyway) to do massively more dmg.  Of course, doubling or tripling the base damage would essentially have a very similar effect >.< only the range would be extended a bit further than the point blank distance.

What if fall off is an illusion, and your shots get stronger the closer you are? In my opinion, this is essentially a straight up damage buff.

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*SNIP*

 

 

I find it incredibly depressing when people post graphs like this.

 

This is not what Warframe is about. If the entire game is boiling down to "we needs to use X because <graph>" then this game is doomed.

 

All current game content is currently runnable with ANY frame and ANY gun. The only point of bringing out "graphs" is when you start posting curves at wave 90 of how the mobs armor intersects the line of the DPS of guns.

 

Is that what Warframe is to people? The next version of Dungeon Defenders? A new type of Turret Defense? We are supposed to be a team of Ninjas doing covert and combat missions for Lotus, not playing Hot Potato with crypods.

 

Screw damage graphs. Weapons are supposed to exist to give us unique - and FUN dammit - functioning tools to use in different situations. Of course one particular gun will excel at a particular task; What DE needs to do is go through all the weapons, and just tweak what they do as tools, and not as DPS hoses.

 

If the only interest you all have is to see what new wave number you can get to with an extra Forma, you are playing the wrong effing game.

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If you can't get kills, or have every other player kill everything before you can, you're not realy doing much and the game becomes a little more dull. 

 

This is irrelevant. As long as you are not being a burden to the team, it's fine. You can always run with friends to avoid this sort of situation, or if people are taking all the kills say in a Defence map - Sit on the pod and watch, look around, is there anything the team missed, is there anybody in trouble (watch HP), has anything slipped past the murder-wave? There are plenty of ways to be useful.

 

Again, playing with friends or playing solo helps avoid the "everybody kills before I do", which is such an irrelevant argument in a co-op game where exp is shared (as stated by DSpite before myself)

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Yes, but if we ignore graphs; The game would still be more fun if prime weapons felt equal. That doesn't change. 

 

False, subjective / opinion.

 

Your idea of "fun" is not the same as everybody elses (thank god). Furthermore "ignore graphs" is essentially saying "I want to ignore everything that invalidates my opinions"

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Screw damage graphs. Weapons are supposed to exist to give us unique - and FUN dammit - functioning tools to use in different situations. 

 

The thread discusses that a select number of prime weapons need a buff. The graph is there to show that not all of them do.

 

I'm all for choose your favorite weapon and play the game. Whenever I host a void or ODD, I rarely ask ppl to switch frames to better suit the mission. Rank zero Excalibur for t3 ext? Awesome, bonus mission to be his/her body guard. Far more enjoyable than escorting AI in a rescue mission.

 

Your idea of "fun" is not the same as everybody elses

 

I for one enjoy solving math puzzles to optimize my load out. And...

 

Actually, let me put it like this, I don't use graphs to figure out the which weapons are the best in the game, I use graphs to figure out how to best use my weapons in the game.  Damage 2.0 was released for the very purpose of giving more depth to mod'ing weapons a particular way. 

Edited by Quizel
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False, subjective / opinion.

 

Your idea of "fun" is not the same as everybody elses (thank god). Furthermore "ignore graphs" is essentially saying "I want to ignore everything that invalidates my opinions"

But If we use graphs, I'm still correct. I'm not ignoring them, I just don't realy see the need to bring up precise numbers when you don't need a measuring stick to tell empty from full. 

 

Boltor and latron may have similar dps, however, latron is significantly more difficult to use than the boltor. The boltor has a better rate of fire, innate punch through and ragdol, and a higher clip size. Yes, you can mod your latron with punch through, firerate and clip size... but that kinda stops you from whacking on more damage mods. The latron is only better sniping, which is a very small part of warframe's gameplay. 

 

The braton is too weak

The boar is weaker

The burston is weaker.

The paris is good, but it's no boltor.

 

Seriously, If I had access to statistics, we'd find that in high level games, The boltor has the overwhelming majority of prime weapon use.  Paris second. Latron third.  Boar,burston and braton are mastery fodder. Expensive mastery fodder. 

 

If you actualy use numerical data to work out what's the best, the argument would still go in my favour. It doesn't matter so much since once you're past a certain amount of damage the enemy is dead and the rest of the damage is wasted. But clip size, firerate, reload speed and so on are all important too. 

 

Your post about the scenario is bull. shotguns in open spaces don't matter, you can easily close the distance with a shotgun if you want. Pistols or weapons with long barrels don't matter, because hitting a close range target is easy so long as the weapon is hitscan (the vast majority of them) and when they're at point blank you've got melee anyway.  You can use explosives in tight maps and be fine. Infact tight maps are where explosives shine. But with the exception of maybe the penta, explosives in big open maps are good too. 

 

Weapons should be ballanced to fit playstyle because at the amount of shotguns used on t3/4 are tiny. 

 

I actualy feel kinda like a record player here. I do wish the opposition would actually come up with a worthwhile and informative post on why I'm wrong. 

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Braton prime... I've been using the one with 5 V polarities to make screenshots for a thread discussing gore in warframe and even though it has a top tier maxed compliment of mods I'd say double damage won't break it. Or a slightly faster reload. Granted, it works fine for 20 waves of T3 defense and clears entire solar map. Still, no boltor.

Boar prime with 4 V + 1 dash for seeking force I use in T4 with great success as disarming loki. You just need to forma it enough to truly let the swine out.

 

 

EDIT: More about shotguns - I use 5 forma Tigris. Takes me through 30 minutes of T4 survival just fine. I don't spend more time in any mission normally. Shotguns are ok.

Edited by (PS4)Lord_Gremlin
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