MeduSalem Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) So I wanted to give the breeding the benefit of doubt and experiment a little bit around with it since it sounded pretty interesting in concept. But the cold fact: With the current system it’s near to impossible to make something useful with the Puppy blender because of too many random and unknown factors being involved in the whole process. Lack of Information on the current breeding system: The most obvious thing that bothers me as well as many other people is the lack of official description on how the whole puppy-blender breeding mechanic works in detail. The lack of information of what the dominant/recessive traits are, which traits are available, how they work together, how they work when mixed/blended and what not. Instead we have nothing and it literally makes no fun if you keep on getting results that can’t be backtracked/retraced/replicated and comprehended in any logical sense because of RNG being involved everywhere. The outcomes often diverge from the input so far and there’s no real explanation as to why this keeps on happening. There are many examples to be found throughout the forum where people are disappointed of the results because they did not get what they wanted though they tried following common sense or the little information we have found here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/268867-post-your-imprint-breeding-results-lets-try-and-figure-out-the-kubrow-genetics-imprints/ Also the lack of information provided by the game once you have scanned your Kubrow for Imprints is inconvenient as well. Yeah you have that nice visual representation of your Kubrow, but that doesn’t help/say much to be honest because of the hidden traits or even dominant traits not fully coming through strong enough to be visibly noticeable but make a huge difference once thrown into the blender. It would be better if the game would also provide a "Text-format representation" of all the dominant/recessive traits found on your Kubrow after being done scanning. A simple list would be enough and people would actually know what they’ve got. Isn’t that the core reason behind why we scan our Kubrows? To reveal what its traits are? It’s not only to give some insight on how that Breeding System actually works, but also to prevent that ridiculous trade-scamming that has taken over ever since U14 thanks to Imprints. Some people just don’t know what they are selling or they are lying on purpose to make a quick buck. Both of which have great influence on the resulting breed. You should be able to review all the traits of the Kubrow stored on the imprint by hovering over the Imprints, even in the trade window. Current breeding system on longterm: Even yuikami made the Kubrow comics mostly for fun and might not share any of my actual feelings there's some awfully sad truth involved in them: http://yuikami-da.deviantart.com/art/201-469486250 Everyone experimenting a little bit with the breeding currently should have come to a similar conclusion: Breeding generates a LOT of genetic waste material. Yes, I’m speaking of all the useless icecubes we are storing in the back of our Lisets because of failed results. Wasn’t the breeding supposed to “design” your ultimate Kubrow(s)? The ones you will stick with? At least it has been described as such during the hype. It was supposed to create a Kubrow that you can relate to/bond with and that you want to keep and not store away in a fridge in disgust. In that matter the current system heavily failed right away. Just for the sake of experimenting I’ve incubated 14 Kubrow eggs already. I don't mind the Plat for rushing some eggs because I've simply been curious. Of all of those I created I got only one that is somewhat “tolerable” and is not the same bland blue-greyish-brownish mongrel with near to indifferent features and even on that one that’s not like the rest and is instead really dark grey/nearly black I still would like to change some traits in favor of some different because I’d rather like to have stripes instead of patches for example. Well can't do that so back to the blender? Honestly... No. I don’t even want to imagine how many more Kubrows I would need to finally get something I want to keep thanks to the randomness and many factors being involved throughout the breeding. The current system is pretty much limiting everything. From the very beginning of having only 2 Imprints per Kubrow until the very fact that you’ve to pay tremendous amounts of Platinum for Imprints that might come close enough to something you want and even then it’s not guaranteed that the traits will carry over so you may start off at square one again and waste even more resources/Platinum. There’s just too much pay & pray involved for the current system to be reliable and future-prove, which will become even worse when there are even more visual features around Kubrows can develop. Randomness on top of something you can only reliable experiment on with already investing Platinum for ridiculously priced Imprints is something that’s just too much to take. The chance that those Imprints are getting cheaper with time is low because only 2 Imprints can be made per Kubrow and people will eventually stop making more Kubrows because they either bought what they wanted on the trade channel or are getting sick of the current implementation and leave it be altogether. Both of which will eventually lead to some stuff becoming near to extinct or horrendous to pay for. It's foreseeable and it's ugly. The current Breeding System – I can’t describe it with other words – is a huge Platinum sink that only the most dedicated players can afford, while majority of the player base will be pretty sick of that soon once they’ve had it with that unreliability. This is majorly also pushed by the high crafting and up-keep costs, Cool-downs for switching between Kubrows and the questionable advantages over Sentinels that are yet up to debate. But those have already their own threads. So Breeding System 2.0 aka Genetic Forge using "Trait"-Cards (similar to Mod-Cards): So I started thinking on an idea how to make breeding more reliable/deterministic as well as a fix for the removed “scrambling” feature. My idea is to basically "isolate"/"extract" traits you like on a seperate Imprint ("Trait"-Card) that only hold those specifically selected traits – then put them on another existing Kubrow to mutate it (thereby making it more the way you want it) or combine several of those "trait"-cards to a completely new Template to hatch a new egg or sell those "Trait"-Cards on the trade channel. How it would work in detail: When scanning a Kubrow for imprints it should decrypt the whole DNA… putting a list on an Imprint with all the dominant/recessive trait-“alleles” that make up your Kubrow for you to review. So you exactly know what dominant/recessive traits your Kubrow has and which may be hidden. Then there needs to be a tool to isolate/extract specific “alleles”/traits from that DNA Imprint by “splitting” them up to a different partial-imprint creating a specific "Trait"-Card. With those “Trait”-Cards you then can go ahead and fill up a full DNA string - a template if you so want - of your choice and with that new Imprint you can go ahead and incubate a new egg which will fully adopt your custom DNA string. (No randomness involved, it’s enough work to collect all the traits anyways). ----- Example for extraction: You have a black Kubrow and you want to use only the black fur color on another Kubrow and don't want any of the other traits. Then you scan your Kubrow and wait until you get a list populated with all the traits. After that you put that Imprint in the extraction-tool and select the trait that is responsible for the black fur color and it will be stored on a separate “Trait”-Card that only holds the black fur color. Then there's the possibility that some traits are rather complex (made up of 2-4 trait cards) and the more complex it gets the longer it takes to extract all the corresponding "Trait"-cards or something. With really ridiculous long cooldown times for stuff like Lotus symbols or Colors made up by 4 traits and whatnot. The amount of trait-cards extracted would eventually have to deterimine how often you can extract traits from "provider" Kubrows so to not overflood the market again. ----- ----- Example for designing a new Kubrow: Imagine you want to incubate a random new egg. Then you have a blank template with rows of specific traits. For example: Temperament (Race): Gender: Build: Height: Fur Pattern: Fur Color 1: Fur Color 2: ... (and so on) and in each row you'd have 2-4 slots or something (depending on how complex a trait can be for example Gender doesn't need to be as complex as fur color, but there would always be a minimum of 2 cards required) where you can put in fitting trait cards by drag&drop from your genetic storage. And once you put in a trait card the possible "result" will be shown in a rough preview window... and as you enter more trait cards the "result"-preview gradually changes to adopt all the trait cards you picked. The exact position of a trait card in a row could also determine some variants... which would be especially needed for fur-colors... to determine intermediate colors or something. So you can fiddle around and see what happens similar to the way when experimenting with Combined Elements at Mods. Eventually once you've filled up all slots with at least some basic cards you'd have to hit the apply button and that consumes all the trait cards in the process and incubates the Kubrow. You may or may not fill up all traits with cards but then those traits are partially left open for RNG. Picking no cards at all means fully random incubating. The time it takes to incubate the Kubrow would then depend on how complex the setup is you want to incubate/mutate. The more trait cards you throw into the blender the longer it takes to forge that DNA string and to incubate the egg. So you may have to wait 2 days for a randomly incubated egg... but if you'd throw in something complex into the mix like the Lotus symbol you've to wait a week or even longer. ----- That way we would have much better control over what happens when breeding a new egg rather than gambling around and wasting dozens of Kubrows, resources, time and whatnot. Those "Trait"-Cards could also be used to genetically mutate your existing Kubrows to replace a trait you don’t like. That way you wouldn’t have to breed 20 new Kubrows until you get one that suits you, rather than slowly getting your beloved existing one in the direction you want it. Those "Trait"-Cards holding a speficic allele could be traded between players then and there would be no more scamming, because “black-fur-trait-card" is called “black-fur-trait-card” and there’s no debate about it and no pictures needed anymore to prove anything. Also this is the only way to make even unloved Kubrows something worth because you can always sell it's DNA parts if the whole thing isn't anything else good for. What I also suggest in relation to that is some of the colors and other traits are made up by blending two different "Trait"-Cards of the same trait together. For example: White Fur Allele + Black Fur Allele = Gray Fur Allele Yellow Fur Allele + Red Fur Allele = Orange Fur Allele Yellow Fur Allele + Blue Fur Allele = Green Fur Allele Yellow Fur Allele + Red Fur Allele + Black Fur Allele = Brown Fur Allele Skinny Allele + Stocky Allele = Normal Allele (Build) Small Allele + Tall Allele = Normal Allele (Height) … and so on. More complex examples for complex patterns and colors is something that DE could play around with to balance out the system as well as to create intermediate results. That way there aren’t as many basic trait-alleles around as some of them could easily be reproduced by putting two (or more) “trait”-cards together and some of the stuff could still be decided by dominant/recessive ways by making it dependent on in which order you place the traits into the blender (similar to the way how combined elements are chosen by the order you place the elementals into your weapons) A little rough 3D visualized preview of what your Kubrow will most likely look like with the current changes/setup could help to assist the player in creation phase! - Thanks to Ryouhi Another thing that could be experimented on with this way is to create hybrid classes of Kubrows that for example melt 2 of the ability precepts of 2 classes together in one. Like for example having a Hybrid between a Huras and a Raksa… allowing it to cloak you and have the shield replenishing or something. This would obviously needed to be balanced though, but it would give it a nice touch for somebody looking into a class in between the 4 available. Also those 2 Imprints per Kubrow limit should be removed... or changed to something like 2 scans every week/month or something. It only limits your ability to experiment around, because if you didn't get what you want you wasted Imprints and you can't get it back without buying or breeding new Kubrows which eventually leads to the problems we already have once again. The limitations to prevent overflooding the market (thanks to 00zau): There would be "provider"-Kubrows (no changes made to it a.k.a random incubated Kubrows) and "receiver"-Kubrows (has been completely designed or is an existing Kubrow that had it's traits changed/mutated). Once you modified a specific trait/allele on an existing Kubrow or when creating a new DNA string for a new egg out of custom "Trait"-cards then the modified trait(s) become(s) so destabilzed/degraded that you can't extract from those modified/custom Kubrows anymore. This prevents the market from overflowing with rare "Trait"-cards to the point where the sellers would have to compete with their former buyers, as pointed out by 00zau in detail here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/276436-feedback-kubrow-breeding-reviewed-suggestion-for-major-changes/#entry3194666 So eventually modifying your Kubrows is a one-way road... Once you modified a specific allele you can't extract/isolate that said alleles anymore, while the others (the ones not modified yet) remain unharmed. From that point on the modified Kubrows can only "receive" new alleles but can't provide them anymore - hence "Receiver"-Kubrow. This encourages to breed new random Kubrows to get "fresh blood" into the breeding system - hence "Provider"-Kubrow. Interesting Links: MonsieurZero also created a thread independent from mine with a similar if not the same idea, you should definitely check it out: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/278420-kubrows-build-a-brow-workshop-genetic-template-revamp-general-feedback/ Also have a look at the other proposals and suggestions in the Kubrow Megathread by noveltyhero:https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/278994-kubrow-feedback-megathread-with-poll/ There's no TL;DR because there are really serious flaws in the current system that should be resolved to create a real Genetic Forge that's useful rather than wasting resources with no guranteed outcome. I've marked the most key stuff with underlines anyways. Edited August 5, 2014 by MeduSalem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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