Kubrow Feedback [Megathread]

[CapricaSix]

Let's not jump to a whole other extreme. RNG is good in many games just not when everything is based upon it. That said some stuff can remain behind RNG but future stuff really should be pushed with quests. The void cannot take any more primes and maybe we could have void quests and whatnot for end-game.

 

Also, for the Kubrow quest, do you like where it is at now? Should it be made harder/for end-game?

Specifically speaking, what would you add to the quest?

Well,

I'm not exactly suggesting RNG should go completely, most of the game is reliant on RNG as you already know, how often our elemental shots/crits procs, the amount of drops/resources in a mission, even the maps themselves are made with generative algorithms everytime we start a new game (even though they're not large enough to make a real difference). I'm just saying the "rewards" that are insanely grindy should be thrown into the quest system, maybe even the warframes (they could have their own stories there and special way to obtain each one of them). What's more fun, farming and grinding in the same few spots for hours days or working towards a goal through several (or single, depending on the difficulty) quests to get what you wanted?

...I'm aware this is a bit off-topic so I've put a spoiler on it, just wanted to respond.

 

Kubrow quests could involve large-scale mixed missions, as in all in one (the way it used to be before, you're doing Sabotage, suddenly Lotus says "**** it, just kill everyone!" and the mission becomes Extermination. Only more to it and less random), and you get to use your kubrow in all of them, not only in Earth - Lith. Making it longer rather than harder would be better in my opinion. Personally I rushed through the kubrow quest with ease, it wouldn't have made much difference if the enemies were high level or not, armour/damage scaling is just artificial difficulty after all.

 

Basically what I'm asking for here is dynamic missions within quests, stuff popping up every now and then as you go with your team, but I think some linearity would do much better than filling it with RNG. For example (not kubrow related):

So the core of the mission could be Interception where you're supposed to capture certain points (could be made dynamic instead of static) and hold the area in a massive multi-objective map where the targets aren't necessarily in the same room. Then some Defense twist, you (or the invaders) can shoot the Interception object you're defending and damaging it completely will slow down and/or stop the progression bar from giving points to either Tenno or the Invaders; while also starting a Survival ish countdown if all the targets are down (and as long as they're not repaired by you or your team) for a meltdown which you can delay with life support units and pods you activate all over the map, sent by lotus (until you manage to repair or let it all be repaired and stop the meltdown). And there's basically no end to this until you decide to extract or lose the mission by either letting the invaders get max points as they capture the target or cause a meltdown by destroying it while they send stronger reinforcements the longer you stay.

 

...or maybe there could be simply more parts to collect from these quests (with a nerf to the crafting/waiting time, that just doesn't make much sense). Currently you only have to play only 4 low level missions in order to complete the Howl of the Kubrow, if I'm not mistaken. The system itself is convenient enough and is very forgiving, I don't think it would be too frustrating to add to the time (not the crafting time!) and effort needed to do this.

Edited August 2, 2014 by CapricaSix

[noveltyhero]

-snip-

I personally think quests should be fully handcrafted so the attention to detail works great.

 

It would've been nice (and made sense) for the collar quest that you do a solo interception (as it is meant to stop radio transmission or whatever) and then the Lotus could say, ok I've found the location of the collar let's go. Then the mission tells you to go to another location and then extract. Of course this part of the quest can/should be RNG so breeders don't get entirely bored, however for me anyway Howl of the Kubrow felt extremely lackluster, even Hidden Messages was better and that quest was simplistic.

[Naftal]

I didn't read the whole thread so I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet.

 

About experience sharing. If I do the kills myself, with either a weapon or an ability, the kubrow only gets very little xp. When I'm in a group where I do half the kills and the other half is done by other players, the kubrow gets multiple times more xp even if the total kill count for the mission is the same.

 

I'd like to be able to level up kubrows more efficiently without having to leech on squad kills. They should get the same amount of xp for my and my teammates' kills.

[noveltyhero]

I didn't read the whole thread so I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet.

 

About experience sharing. If I do the kills myself, with either a weapon or an ability, the kubrow only gets very little xp. When I'm in a group where I do half the kills and the other half is done by other players, the kubrow gets multiple times more xp even if the total kill count for the mission is the same.

 

I'd like to be able to level up kubrows more efficiently without having to leech on squad kills. They should get the same amount of xp for my and my teammates' kills.

Actually, doesn't the Kubrow level up the same way as the sentinel? As in they get 100% XP separately from how it is divided across other weapons.

[Naftal]

Actually, doesn't the Kubrow level up the same way as the sentinel? As in they get 100% XP separately from how it is divided across other weapons.

Seeing the amount of xp they get. No.

 

And the difference between xp from my own kills and my teammates' kills is obvious and huge.

[noveltyhero]

Seeing the amount of xp they get. No.

 

And the difference between xp from my own kills and my teammates' kills is obvious and huge.

I will note this but would need some confirmation (my Kubrow is still maturing).

 

However when I leveled my Sahasa it leveled surprisingly fast, so there's that :S

[Bibliothekar]

Yeah I agree, it is weird that interacting is only for loyalty but the problem is that the animations are not fluid. They are rather sticky, noticed stealth animations? That little half of a second where you character get's teleported is really awkward as well as the Kubrow interactions being in cinematic.

True, but even if the animation was rather wonky at first, at some point someone from the art team will most certainly go back and polish them. And with Kubrows, I'd prefer a little awkward interaction over no interaction at all.

 

 

I feel like Kubrows and due to their maintenance should be pushed up a bit because starting on Venus is seriously way too soon, that is almost 8 hours into the game and most people will not be able to hold the up-costs.

I agree. With their stats bound to our frames, which makes them extremely tanky even with a squishy frame, they are an endgame-pet and shouldn't be acquirable this early. I understand that DE wants to make them available for all players, but they really shouldn't in my opinion.

 

 

Of course this part of the quest can/should be RNG so breeders don't get entirely bored,

Since you only have to get the collar once and not for every single Kubrow you breed, it could be 100% scripted. However, the current defense mission feels a rather odd choice for getting the collar. It might be better to have an Interception/Raid/(Exterminate), from a storytelling point of view. Lotus tells you that the Grineer found an Orokin artefact and that it seems to have some connection to the Kubrows, but she doesn't know where they took it. So you'll have to intercept their messages to find its current location. You then break into the facility, try to make your way through it with as little noise as possible (since you have a slightly scared Kubrow with you), get the artefact - and maybe clean out the place, since you're already there.

And maybe we could insert a capture mission somewhere into the quest, where we have to bring one of the scientists involved in the Kubrow program to Lotus, to learn more about genetic imprints and stuff like that.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Bibliothekar

[noveltyhero]

Since you only have to get the collar once and not for every single Kubrow you breed, it could be 100% scripted. However, the current defense mission feels a rather odd choice for getting the collar. It might be better, to have an Interception/Raid/(Exterminate), from a storytelling point of view. Lotus tells you, that the Grineer found an Orokin artefact and that it has some connection to the Kubrows, but she doesn't know where they took it. So you'll have to intercept their messages to find its current location. You then break into the facility, try to make your way through it with as little noise as possible (since you have a slightly scared Kubrow with you), get the artefact - and maybe clean out the place, since you're already there.

Hmm, I did not know that, second Kubrow still maturing.

 

I would like the narrative sort of thing as you are running through the mission. In fact they should push it so it is more Avatar-like, "the first flight seals the deal" in turn have at the end of the mission right before you get the collar (in cinematics) that a Grineer is there and you run tackle him down as the Kubrow eats his face off.

 

As for stealth and such, not forcing stealth is the best option. Either way I hope the quest gets improved and moved from Venus. Could replace that one with a quest that rewards you Wyrm (since companions should be introduced somehow). However that is a separate discussion.

[Bibliothekar]

Well, you don't have to go full stealth, but Rescue-like would be nice. So you'd have a Warden guarding the artefact, and if you make too much noise in that particular room, he will destroy it rather than letting it fall into your hands. I know that stealth is not very good in it's current state (mostly because of a lack of alternate routes with greatly decreased chances or enemy encounters - think of air ducts and the like), but I think they did it pretty well in Rescue2.0 and that it would fit this mission much better than the current Defense.

[Damnation-Cleric]

The stasis thing seriously needs to be changed. If I'm correct, stasis only works for 12 days, after which the Kubrow begins to die. So if i'm away for two weeks in an area with no internet, my kubrow will die, right?

 

Kubrows should only deteriorate when you are IN GAME. Your tenno doesn't die from you not playing, does it?

[noveltyhero]

The stasis thing seriously needs to be changed. If I'm correct, stasis only works for 12 days, after which the Kubrow begins to die. So if i'm away for two weeks in an area with no internet, my kubrow will die, right?

 

Kubrows should only deteriorate when you are IN GAME. Your tenno doesn't die from you not playing, does it?

No, I have not heard of that. When in stasis your Kubrow's DNA or Loyalty will never degrade. Out of stasis it used to be that it took 12 days for your Kubrow to die given that he starts with +100% DNA integrity, due to recent hotfix the rate has been halved moving the time to 24 days.

[Pendragon1951]

First off I want to Salute the OP for his/her fine work in gathering all this info with the hope that DE will address some and all of these valid issues which would then bring the Kubrows to where they should have been as advertised by DE. My main issue, which I'm sure has been repeated many times, is their combat AI, they are literally combat stupid, you have to almost aim them at an enemy for them to attack, with the minor exception of the Sahasa, which oddly enough is not the combat Kubrow but acts like the Sunika should. Here is an example, I can be standing no more than a foot away from a Corpus shooting at me or the Kubrow (Huras, Sunika, Sahasa), which by the way we are both looking straight at, and until I shoot at the Corpus feet will the Kubrow attack him. I don't know what coders used as an example to program the Kubrows but I think they really need to revisit this important aspect of a Kubrows nature.

[Qloshae]

I want a Dojo Kubrow Genetic Cosmetics Lab where we can all scan and store our Kubrow patterns and colors then repattern/color our Kubrow to any color and/or pattern stored there.

^ This sounds like a cool idea.

 

Could be like a codex for different patterns and colors. Let's say, a shadow dojo needs 50 scans of a pattern or color for it to be available while a moon clan might need 500 scans, this might be possible to fill with platinum (like 50p per scan). Then when it is available, anyone can buy a gene therapy for the pattern and each of the colors separately for an X amount of credits. Each treatment may take 24 hours and decrease the DNA stability by a small amount (to discourage too frequent changes).

 

I am sure a lot of big clans would spend a lot of platinum to get a nice collection of patterns and colors while also allowing people to breed kubrows for their imprints etc. if they don't want to spend platinum.

50p for a single person is a forgettable amount (around $3,5 if I am not mistaken), but it is good for DE if a lot of people think that when they really want to contribute towards some of those nice patterns without hoping for a good RNG roll.

 

For example, a black kubrow with white spots would give progress towards black primary color, spot pattern and white pattern color.

If then another one gives a scan from a grey kubrow with a white lotus pattern it would add a second scan on the white pattern color.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Qloshae

[Arron_Rift]

What about just giving them a fitness bar instead of health? That way it would make since that they wouldn't die if you don't log in for a while, but makes the player still think "I gotta take Fluffy on a few missions, he's getting pudgy in the middle"

 

To me this seems like a much more fun mechanic, as logging back in after an unplanned absence would be much more funny when you're greeted by a fat, burping kubrow than coming back to a dead kubrow.

 

Edit: and of course a "sell" button too, as this would make it impossible to get rid of them at all otherwise.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Arron_Rift

[noveltyhero]

First off I want to Salute the OP for his/her fine work in gathering all this info with the hope that DE will address some and all of these valid issues which would then bring the Kubrows to where they should have been as advertised by DE. My main issue, which I'm sure has been repeated many times, is their combat AI, they are literally combat stupid, you have to almost aim them at an enemy for them to attack, with the minor exception of the Sahasa, which oddly enough is not the combat Kubrow but acts like the Sunika should. Here is an example, I can be standing no more than a foot away from a Corpus shooting at me or the Kubrow (Huras, Sunika, Sahasa), which by the way we are both looking straight at, and until I shoot at the Corpus feet will the Kubrow attack him. I don't know what coders used as an example to program the Kubrows but I think they really need to revisit this important aspect of a Kubrows nature.

Yeah this is a big problem, either Kubrow commands or combat stances would fix this issue so those that want a more aggressive Kubrow can have it and those that want a retreated defensive one are also happy.

 

The Sahasa thing is just funny, I don't even want a Sunika anymore XD

 

 

 

^ This sounds like a cool idea.

 

Could be like a codex for different patterns and colors. Let's say, a shadow dojo needs 50 scans of a pattern or color for it to be available while a moon clan might need 500 scans, this might be possible to fill with platinum (like 50p per scan). Then when it is available, anyone can buy a gene therapy for the pattern and each of the colors separately for an X amount of credits. Each treatment may take 24 hours and decrease the DNA stability by a small amount (to discourage too frequent changes).

 

I am sure a lot of big clans would spend a lot of platinum to get a nice collection of patterns and colors while also allowing people to breed kubrows for their imprints etc. if they don't want to spend platinum.

50p for a single person is a forgettable amount (around $3,5 if I am not mistaken), but it is good for DE if a lot of people think that when they really want to contribute towards some of those nice patterns without hoping for a good RNG roll.

 

For example, a black kubrow with white spots would give progress towards black primary color, spot pattern and white pattern color.

If then another one gives a scan from a grey kubrow with a white lotus pattern it would add a second scan on the white pattern color.

 

Sounds like a very interesting idea.

This might just me being a little slow, however what's with the 50p? Do you pay to use the scans? Or unlock each scan without needing to actually scan it? If the latter, should it not be cheaper like 10p per scan but RNG behind it so you can't pick what scans you get (otherwise only a few would get chosen)? Additionally, wouldn't this make the rare imprints not so rare? Of course making it so that if you pay you can't unlock something you already have 90% or fully scanned :S

 

What about just giving them a fitness bar instead of health? That way it would make since that they wouldn't die if you don't log in for a while, but makes the player still think "I gotta take Fluffy on a few missions, he's getting pudgy in the middle"

 

To me this seems like a much more fun mechanic, as logging back in after an unplanned absence would be much more funny when you're greeted by a fat, burping kubrow than coming back to a dead kubrow.

 

Edit: and of course a "sell" button too, as this would make it impossible to get rid of them at all otherwise.

I can see that being good even if its an additional buff. So higher fitness would mean that the Kubrow is faster, stronger etc (no debuff available at weakest point) so there is less incentive to swap them around.

 

When it comes to feedback in general, even if one option is not chosen specifically anything here can spark off an idea for the developers

[Mak_Gohae]

 

What I meant is that Sahasa was too defensive for my personal way of playing. Enemies are 5m away, fully alerted and shooting at me whilst my dog stands by me looking at nothing. Combat precepts would be nice

Nice video I will link it in, was that the Sahasa?

 

 

 

5m seems to be the "attack sphere" i mention the kubrows needs to be in so he can launch his attacks.

At 4:43 in the vid i show examples where im being shot at and you can see that the kubrow does nothing until i get close enough that enemies reach his attack sphere. This 5m range was probably put into place because if it was bigger than that your kubrow may end up in a different tile far away from you if he decided to attack things that are on the edge of his sphere. When i did that Interception mission i lost him several times because there were enough enemies in a close enough space and he just went on his own killing.

 

A possible change to this may be that instead of having an attack sphere where the kubrow attacks anything around you his targeting could actually be controlled by your field of vision. Whatever your crosshairs are looking at is what the kubrow will actually attack. This does have the disadvantage of loosing some of his defensive capabilities since attacking what you see means he will not attack what you dont see.

 

The whole vid was a Raksa, the howl, as far as i know, is a Raksa only ability, right?

I just started breeding a Sahasa now and in a couple of days i will take it out and see how this type performs.

 

 

 

I feel like Kubrows and due to their maintenance should be pushed up a bit because starting on Venus is seriously way too soon, that is almost 8 hours into the game and most people will not be able to hold the up-costs.

 

You are shown the requirements for the kubrow once you have the node installed so when you go to the market and see the price of that incubator i think that should be enough of a warning that this thing is not for newer players.

 

If that is not enough of a warning, like i said, i dont see as a problem moving it to a higher area but the mission needs to be super hard if an egg is given as a reward.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Mak_Gohae

[Smooth00]

Finally, someone taking action for the sahasa kubrows... well all kubrows in general.

 

Mostly because i'm in the credits :D

[Qloshae]

Sounds like a very interesting idea.

This might just me being a little slow, however what's with the 50p? Do you pay to use the scans? Or unlock each scan without needing to actually scan it? If the latter, should it not be cheaper like 10p per scan but RNG behind it so you can't pick what scans you get (otherwise only a few would get chosen)? Additionally, wouldn't this make the rare imprints not so rare? Of course making it so that if you pay you can't unlock something you already have 90% or fully scanned :S

The 50p would be for each scan.

For example, 1x50p would give you 1/50 scans for the lotus pattern.

Normally imprints go for around 10-20p if I am not mistaken, but the correct ones are also harder to get (since there's a lot of combinations).

The big difference would be to encourage player trading and to reward the players who spend a lot of hours to get and sell imprints.

 

To make an example, if you wanted your shadow clan to get the selection for black kubrows with white lotus pattern you could trade for it for about 500-1,000 platinum (between 50 x 10p and 50 x 20p) or buy it for 7,500 platinum (50p x 50). The former ofc. might cost more than that 500-1,000 if not everyone the person gets has all the 3 things.

Remember that a shadow clan can have 10 players so that would be either 50 - 100 platinum or 750 platinum each. Not to forget that they could just breed kubrows on their own and trade for the patterns or colors they want.

A moon clan would at max players have to spend between 5-10p or 75p each if I am not mistaken.

 

Things with platinum should use as little RNG as possible.

 

You are right tho, maybe it should be better scaled and lower (closer to the moon clan plat per person no matter their tier). Tho that is up to DE and the community in the end. The structure is what is important.

If you are able to see exactly what type of pattern and color you will get with an imprint then this idea will not just make imprint trading viable, but desired.

 

Once your clan has gotten colors and patterns unlocked they will be available through just buying the specific gene therapy or buying the specific gene therapy BP and creating a gene therapy injector.

 

From what I read then the community wants a way to choose how your kubrow looks and DE wants it to be hard to get the kubrow to look exactly the way you want (since you were supposed to bond with the kubrow and not how it looks). This would be a middle-ground.

 

Maybe even body type should have its own separate gene therapy (and I've heard eye colors are different as well between kubrows).

 

To answer the rarity thing, costs could also differ between rarity like 10 for common, 25 for uncommon and 50 for rare. People already pay others to get rare patterns and stuff, so...

Not all of us want the same thing tho either.

Personally, I would like mine to be black with red eyes and maybe a maroon lotus mark or something (tho might decide for maroon or dark red stripes instead) and I would be fine with it.

[MercuryDoll]

I'm not sure if this was brought up before. But can't we just use the antitoxins from the Cicero event as a cheap alternative for DNA stabilizers?

Think of it this way: for every day feeding you could use one of the antitoxins, depending on the tier it gives the Kubrow 5/10/20% Health.

DNA stabilizers give it 30-50%* health plus one day* of decreasing decay by 30-50%* (values to be adjusted for balance). This makes the high cost stabilizers still very useful and used, while also giving those dust-collecting potions that you can still gather from Earth a use again.

 

TL;DR: cicero antitoxins as a weaker, but cheaper alternative for Kubrow food/regenerators for new players.

[noveltyhero]

I'm not sure if this was brought up before. But can't we just use the antitoxins from the Cicero event as a cheap alternative for DNA stabilizers?

Think of it this way: for every day feeding you could use one of the antitoxins, depending on the tier it gives the Kubrow 5/10/20% Health.

DNA stabilizers give it 30-50%* health plus one day* of decreasing decay by 30-50%* (values to be adjusted for balance). This makes the high cost stabilizers still very useful and used, while also giving those dust-collecting potions that you can still gather from Earth a use again.

 

TL;DR: cicero antitoxins as a weaker, but cheaper alternative for Kubrow food/regenerators for new players.

This has been mentioned in fact, weaker-no cheaper-yes. It would also give more incentive to go to Earth more which would be nice because the tilesets are beautiful

 

You are show the requirements for the kubrow once you have the node installed so when you go to the market and see the price of that incubator i think that should be enough of a warning that this thing is not for newer players.

 

If that is not enough of a warning, like i said, i dont see as a problem moving it to a higher area but the mission needs to be super hard if an egg is given as a reward.

Thanks for the extensive feedback

 

Whilst true, new players might not know how much everything is worth and waste important investments that would help them drastically end-game into something like Kubrows which aren't too bad but definitely not the best foundation for a new player.

 

-snip-

Well nice idea!

 

*Will edit the main thread tomorrow

[N64Gamefreak]

We all know how diluted the feral Kubrow mod table is, so why not have 4 different types of feral kubrows and kubrow dens?  They don't need to act differently from each other, but each would have their own drop tables, and each den would only drop that type of kubrow egg when destroyed.  That way Bite isn't impossible to obtain, and you don't need to spend 3 weeks hatching, incubating, and then ditching a kubrow you don't want.  You would need to be able to get rid of eggs you picked up but don't want, though.

[Dewnin]

This is a random suggestion in regards to sahasa Kubrows, since I've just been leveling Paws(a sahasa) up.

 

Dig feels kinda of 'bleh', as I think some other people mentioned.  If it were possible I'd like to see it get replaced by a single-target desecrate like effect, with a long cooldown (enough to keep it from just digging peoples corpses constantly, and let it do other, kubrow-y things).

 

I thought this miiight sort of overlap with nekros..since with the right build you're desecrating everything rapid-fire and all...But with Huras+Loki both existing I think that is an inconsistent concern.

 

So yeah, buff dig~

[Alienami]

Kubrows seem like they have very bad eyes and also ears. They seem only attracted to the smell of blood when I shoot an enemy...it is frustrating they can be surrounded by enemies and just sit there.  

I could swear they used to be much more aggressive back when I wanted to toss my Kubrow out of the airlock for running off across the map and dying to stupid stuff, but now they are far too dumb. Perhaps the more a Kubrow levels the more aggressive they become?   
 

They, all Kubrows,  need a personal  360º detection radius (not too big) that pulses once every 1 or 2 seconds depending on type, and have a 1 or 2 second delay if not on an enemy to assist you.  

* Sunika and Huras should attack your targets mostly. (1 second delay)   

* Raska and Sahasa should defend you when you are attacked mostly. (1 second delay)   

 

The "leap forward and slash at enemy and jump backwards" attack should remove the jump backwards part, its awkward and useless and painfully slow... it doesn't look right either.   

 

 

I like my Sunika more than my Raksa.   

* Sunika doesn't seem to grapple Ancients for some reason.    

* Raska fear's graphic is too dark (dims everyones screen dramatically) and yet also blinding... its made a few friends think the Stalker is about to attack. I would also prefer it make enemies not run away as its counter productive for a melee pet and often everyone else.   

* The locker opening ability, even maxed, is buggy on animation and also fails to properly trigger enough.   

I do find better results in using it more by putting it in the top left corner (What would be sentinel slot 1) but that may be my imagination.   

Oh, and please put a Kubrow down noise, an indicator both visual (similar to the downed teammate) and auditory (a shriek of pain)... the Kubrow wimpering in pain so you can find your kubrow using your ears, just recycle the one they make when they get hurt and make it a bit louder.  

Often it is: "Hmm.. where is my Kubrow? Is it stuck again on one of the many map AI blackholes where things go derp?" *NOPE! OHMAHGAD its bleeding out, despite my maxed loyal companion mod its 5 seconds from death!*  

Edited August 3, 2014 by Alienami

[Arron_Rift]

Perhaps they could make the kubrow just wander within x amount of tiles hunting baddies, but he can "smell" when you're moving too far away and abandon his prey to stay close to you.

[Bibliothekar]

And maybe we could insert a capture mission somewhere into the quest, where we have to bring one of the scientists involved in the Kubrow program to Lotus, to learn more about genetic imprints and stuff like that.

Something that came to my mind later: This mission could reward you with an imprint of Alpha, the mother of the new Kubrow-breed. A female Raksa with random common colours and pattern, as a start for your imprint collection.

And another thing: Darvo, as he's Frohd Bek's son, might manage to sneak an imprint out of his father's labs every now and then and offer it to you (he could get the station opposite the Grineer radio for that stuff). You don't really know what you'll get and if it's worth the plat, but you might find something nice.

 

Btw, any opinions on Rescue-like Raid? Is the general idea worth working on?

Edited August 3, 2014 by Bibliothekar