It's Been Many Months Since Damage 2.0...

[Vaskadar]

However, balancing weapons has slowed to a crawl. Buffs, nerfs, fixes, balance passes, and regulation are all a regular thing in most MMOs, online games, shooters, MOBAs, and co-op games. While they are less frequent in PvE games, they're still necessary to maintain the 'just right' porridge of the difficulty curve. More stuff just keeps on getting piled on without it being appropriated to its 'supposed' power level. There seems to be little rhyme or reason, and I've been posting about it for a year now, and it seems that I could go on until I'm blue in the face, but really?

 

There's a near limitless amount of potential content for the game, yes, but it's all meaningless if the weapons you enjoyed playing with don't do much. Are we going to really have to wait until the Focus system is implemented before we see any regularity and reasoning with the balancing? Or is it just going to be the usual dart-board of power levels?

 

Warframe, a game without frontiers, weapons without tiers.

 

I realize that I'm being a tad condescending, but your player telemetry (statistics, preferred weapons, etc.) usage curves are probably all out of order. I've checked many profiles, and the most-used weapons are clearly the most powerful ones, not because they're fun, but because the game mandates a particular playstyle, breaking the difficulty curve, to obtain more loot, and so the path of least resistance is usually chosen.

 

I've used every primary in the game (bar the quanta) and there are a few anomalies that should be given drawbacks for their incredible power output, because right now, there are a couple (I won't name them, for they're pretty obvious) that are just point click and done, while there are so many that have fallen to the wayside in favor of these select few.

 

We're back to where we started before damage 2.0, in the sense that there are just a few top weapons with valleys and gorges between them and others. There needs to be a floor, a bottom line for a weapon's performance, that allows players to remain competitive up to level 35 or even 50 enemies. Close the gaps.

 

Balance has become such a stigmatized word on the forums that any posts are usually vitriolic and contain vast amounts of backlash for even whispering the four letter N word, pertaining to those yellow foam darts that people enjoy shooting at each other. I doubt that there's anyone looking at it, given that the resources have been diverted to more recent things.

 

There has to be more than just one person who has the final say on balance, or even just the balance tuning. It doesn't seem like there is, and there's little to no communication on the issue. Just a few nods here and there in the livestreams, paltry and dismissive nods.

 

So, this is merely my frustration coming to a head. I've tolerated it for a very long time, but it's a wound that's festered for so long that its gangrenous pustules are bursting.

[DiabolusUrsus]

To quote Scott in response to balance when: Is update 14 out yet?

 

Oh. Wait... .__. 

Awks. 

 

Balance please. That will entail both nerfs and buffs, but balance nonetheless. A good first place to start would be improving the base scaling of weapons and Warframes (giving weapons scaling to begin with, to be precise) between ranks 0 and 30, and reducing the overall impact mods have on weapon stats when it comes to damage.

[CY13ERPUNK]

yes and yes

[Krjal]

Just to hazard a guess, now that U14 is stabilising, the team (but mostly Scott XD) is probably looking at balance issues right now.

 

I can understand how frustrated you are but I don't think it's been that long really.

 

It's not gonna happen instantly either way but it's not like we don't have things to play with in the meantime :)

[koolen]

Just to hazard a guess, now that U14 is stabilising, the team (but mostly Scott XD) is probably looking at balance issues right now.

 

I can understand how frustrated you are but I don't think it's been that long really.

It has been that long, really

[MoyuTheTrinity]

It has been that long, really

the update isnt stable enough still lots of crash to desktops and instant logouts

aswell as kubrows are junk and the decay they have is crap concidering how the lack of usefulness , they are cool but that isnt a good enough reason for them to decay

 

I must admit tho I am waiting on balance *stares at lex being weaker then aklex*

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

However, balancing weapons has slowed to a crawl. Buffs, nerfs, fixes, balance passes, and regulation are all a regular thing in most MMOs, online games, shooters, MOBAs, and co-op games. While they are less frequent in PvE games, they're still necessary to maintain the 'just right' porridge of the difficulty curve. More stuff just keeps on getting piled on without it being appropriated to its 'supposed' power level. There seems to be little rhyme or reason, and I've been posting about it for a year now, and it seems that I could go on until I'm blue in the face, but really?

 

There's a near limitless amount of potential content for the game, yes, but it's all meaningless if the weapons you enjoyed playing with don't do much. Are we going to really have to wait until the Focus system is implemented before we see any regularity and reasoning with the balancing? Or is it just going to be the usual dart-board of power levels?

 

Warframe, a game without frontiers, weapons without tiers.

 

I realize that I'm being a tad condescending, but your player telemetry (statistics, preferred weapons, etc.) usage curves are probably all out of order. I've checked many profiles, and the most-used weapons are clearly the most powerful ones, not because they're fun, but because the game mandates a particular playstyle, breaking the difficulty curve, to obtain more loot, and so the path of least resistance is usually chosen.

 

I've used every primary in the game (bar the quanta) and there are a few anomalies that should be given drawbacks for their incredible power output, because right now, there are a couple (I won't name them, for they're pretty obvious) that are just point click and done, while there are so many that have fallen to the wayside in favor of these select few.

 

We're back to where we started before damage 2.0, in the sense that there are just a few top weapons with valleys and gorges between them and others. There needs to be a floor, a bottom line for a weapon's performance, that allows players to remain competitive up to level 35 or even 50 enemies. Close the gaps.

 

Balance has become such a stigmatized word on the forums that any posts are usually vitriolic and contain vast amounts of backlash for even whispering the four letter N word, pertaining to those yellow foam darts that people enjoy shooting at each other. I doubt that there's anyone looking at it, given that the resources have been diverted to more recent things.

 

There has to be more than just one person who has the final say on balance, or even just the balance tuning. It doesn't seem like there is, and there's little to no communication on the issue. Just a few nods here and there in the livestreams, paltry and dismissive nods.

 

So, this is merely my frustration coming to a head. I've tolerated it for a very long time, but it's a wound that's festered for so long that its gangrenous pustules are bursting.

Well said, I fully agree.

[WhisperByte]

Tbf I don't think DEvs give a frag. They mentioned that they want tiered system nearly a year ago and have done absolutely nothing to properly define and communicate those tiers, to set the baselines of expected powerlevels. Hek, I dont even want them to balance the weapons right away.

 

@DEvs

Just give us your baselines and expectations and your definitions of tiers so we, your players, can give proper, informed, accurate feedback so you can gradually rebalance few weapons a week. Every newly released weapon would be easy to balance as well due to the fact that we would know how powerful it should be and we could tell you when the new release is deviating from your intended design

 

 

The above paragraph will be ignored of course but I still have a little glimmer of hope that DEvs care

[Vaskadar]

There are no tiers in Warframe's weapon set. It's just a select few at the top and then everything else in a scattered dart-board.

[DSpite]

There is no gun that can't be used to unlock everything in the game. This arguments are pointless. A 4-5 Forma Braton can put out 4K-5K DPS and a team of players can reach 15 minutes in Survival and wave 20 on Defense with ZERO issues, also because, use of abilities, which are meant to be the primary method for us to do stuff, with weapons being secondary.

 

All the talk of "balance" is to take the damn weapons on wave 100 or 60 minutes Survival which is NOT what Warframe is about.

 

If you want to do that crap go play Dungeon Defenders. I want what is in the trailers, which is Ninja running missions.

 

Weapons should be differentiated by utility, and never by damage output. Just because you want to go another round of AABC because the previous loop did not drop what you wanted, and you can't be bothered using another key is not DE's problem. Infinite waves are simply there for "something to do" and not to be treated as "end game content".

Edited August 1, 2014 by DSpite

[Kashiki]

You do realize that there are stages to this, right?

 

1. They have to think of ways to make the weapons better without breaking its place - IE: breaking lore or undermining its original function

2. Put it down on paper

3. Check the formulas

4. Work with weapons at nearly every conceivable angle

5. Change their code (the hardest part)

6. Test it in their dev consoles

7. Debug it

8. Make sure there is no conflict with other gear

9. Create new functional uses for them if need be

10. Coordinate all of the people on the team to do it.

 

You know, on top of all the bull that you guys request them to do and that they put into the game, themselves. I'm sure they have a backlog of things that need to be done.

 

Now, as for your balance issue - what's wrong with a player using a gun that's powerful that will make it their favorite? You don't have to look down on a player for using a particular weapon just because it's powerful, nor should you be worrying about other's most used weapons.

 

 

Weapons should be differentiated by utility, and never by damage output.

 

This. This is good. I like this.

[DiabolusUrsus]

You do realize that there are stages to this, right?

 

1. They have to think of ways to make the weapons better without breaking its place - IE: breaking lore or undermining its original function

2. Put it down on paper

3. Check the formulas

4. Work with weapons at nearly every conceivable angle

5. Change their code (the hardest part)

6. Test it in their dev consoles

7. Debug it

8. Make sure there is no conflict with other gear

9. Create new functional uses for them if need be

10. Coordinate all of the people on the team to do it.

 

You know, on top of all the bull that you guys request them to do and that they put into the game, themselves. I'm sure they have a backlog of things that need to be done.

 

Now, as for your balance issue - what's wrong with a player using a gun that's powerful that will make it their favorite? You don't have to look down on a player for using a particular weapon just because it's powerful, nor should you be worrying about other's most used weapons.

 

Wat. Are you trying to imply that they have to do all of this at once, immediately, because reasons? Unless they've coded their weapon data and set up their dev programs in an extremely inefficient way, giving us rudimentary balance should be as simple as changing a few integers for each weapon. They don't even scale without mods. They don't even need to run any complex calculations; they can just ballpark it based off of current performance. Best part? They have a decent portion of the community that is strongly invested in the idea of game balance that will give them constant feedback on the tweaks. If they made small balance changes every week, they'd be a lot closer to "balanced" in about a month, give or take. 

 

1. Changing damage values won't break lore or undermine places that don't exist. Weapons aren't fitted into niche roles right now; they're thrown into a hodgepodge mess of "this seems cool, it must be working" stat setups. Considering how little weapon lore actually exists, I doubt balance would have anything to do with the story of a weapon's design origins.

 

2. Because scribbling some numbers down is extremely time consuming. They don't even have to do every weapon at once. They can start with the most glaring offenders. Boltor Prime, Penta, Ogris, etc., and underperforming weapons. Stuff that is more or less okay (e.g. the Braton Prime) can be left alone.

 

3. This can be delayed until they have existing weapons balanced, and are ready for a more in-depth overhaul focused on adding innate scaling and reducing the power of mods.

 

4. What does this even mean? Rotate it around in its 3D render? I guarantee you they don't put this sort of effort into balancing the weapons to begin with, or we wouldn't be in the current situation.

 

5. Again, if it's really difficult for them to recode weapon damage, that's their own fault. They need a new system. 

 

6. They have us for that. You know, beta testers.

 

7. This usually happens the most after release, I think. In any case, not a big deal. 

 

8. What do you mean "conflict?" Identical stats? This shouldn't take long, and can be done retroactively in the same manner as bugfixes. 

 

9. Okay, fair point, but again, this doesn't need to happen for other weapons to be balanced in the meantime. Not everything has to get done at once. 

 

10. If they have trouble coordinating people who are paid to work together on something, they're in deep S#&$. Just saying. 

 

The people you're likely to be talking to here are probably in support of putting a temporary hold on content updates in order to get balance within the realm of "acceptable." 

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

Amem TC, 80% of my posts i say that, i love you for this, even if we have just mt! <3 lol

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

You do realize that there are stages to this, right?

 

1. They have to think of ways to make the weapons better without breaking its place - IE: breaking lore or undermining its original function

2. Put it down on paper

3. Check the formulas

4. Work with weapons at nearly every conceivable angle

5. Change their code (the hardest part)

6. Test it in their dev consoles

7. Debug it

8. Make sure there is no conflict with other gear

9. Create new functional uses for them if need be

10. Coordinate all of the people on the team to do it.

 

You know, on top of all the bull that you guys request them to do and that they put into the game, themselves. I'm sure they have a backlog of things that need to be done.

 

Now, as for your balance issue - what's wrong with a player using a gun that's powerful that will make it their favorite? You don't have to look down on a player for using a particular weapon just because it's powerful, nor should you be worrying about other's most used weapons.

 

 

 

This. This is good. I like this.

Mass Effect 3 MP adjusted many weapons on a weekly bases going on and forth based on community reaction. It IS tht easy when you want it, DE clearly doesnt, they want money.

[Monolake]

When DEL wanted they changed  weapon stats in few hours (ie Tethra accuracy change shortly after its release). Its not hard to change few numbers and submit it into the patch build.

[Vaskadar]

5. Change their code (the hardest part)

 

It's not hard, it's really as simple as changing a few numbers. Object-based programming and modifying default properties are REALLY simple. If you want to give weapons unique functions, that's a different story, but a majority of the game has been changing, whereas certain aspects have been simply ignored or are stagnating. There are things that completely throw off the balance that could be adjusted with a few simple property changes.

 

You can modify projectile speed, damage, whether or not a projectile bounces, spread, spread interpolation, accuracy, shots per burst, magazine size, reload speeds, the list goes on. This can be done in a few seconds or minutes. Compiling takes longer than this, and that usually only takes 30 seconds on a powerful computer. Less time than it takes for you to heat up your coffee.

 

Now, they don't have to be major adjustments, just small adjustments, but there's really no definite tiering in this game, which is something that Scott had stated he wanted to do multiple times and held to it (for the most part), but the gross inconsistencies are bothersome, and there are frequently new weapons that outclass the older ones. It's deliberate power creep for cash. If a weapon isn't doing well, they'll retire that weapon, they've outright removed them in the past.

 

Just look at the Spectra. The worst sidearm in the game. It's a mastery level 4 weapon, requires forma and 3 fieldron. Its time-vs-cost is pretty high for what it does.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Vaskadar

[Kappatalist]

It really needs to be said.

NERF Soma.

NERF Boltor Prime.

NERF Angstrum.

NERF Mirage.

NERF Valkyr.

Maybe even nerf Rhino.

 

As much as I love every single thing listed above, I hate to see them as the sole members of a slowly constricting meta, where the enemies get tougher and tougher just to keep these things from being unstoppable, and making every other weapon and Warframe that much less viable.  Each tool must have a purpose.  If some tools fulfill every purpose, the rest of the tools serve NO purpose.

 

Let the Braton have a purpose.  Let the Mutalist Quanta have a purpose.  Let Ash have a purpose.

You don't even need to touch them to do so.

[Jokubas]

 the most-used weapons are clearly the most powerful ones, not because they're fun, but because the game mandates a particular playstyle, breaking the difficulty curve, to obtain more loot, and so the path of least resistance is usually chosen.

Which is why it's pretty much inevitable that there will be a perceived "best" group of weapons that the "meta" will revolve around.

 

The meta is not everyone though. Just because balance can't be perfect doesn't mean it shouldn't be a goal. You want players not privy to the "meta" to have fun as well. Increasing the challenge to keep up with meta, and letting anything that's not part of the meta fall by the wayside, is like bringing a bunch of random people into the grail chamber without telling them where they are, and just telling them to pick a cup.

 

In other words, I agree.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Jokubas

[fatpig84]

Braton Prime is not ok.

All prime primaries need a minimum of 20k burst DPS.

 

So work on the Braton Prime instead of nerfing everything else.

I have used the Latron Prime / Dread / PP long before they had their well deserved buff.

 

Do not revert them again just because a few short sighted fellas want balance in their way rather than the sensible way.

[Vaskadar]

Braton Prime is not ok.

All prime primaries need a minimum of 20k burst DPS.

 

So work on the Braton Prime instead of nerfing everything else.

I have used the Latron Prime / Dread / PP long before they had their well deserved buff.

 

Do not revert them again just because a few short sighted fellas want balance in their way rather than the sensible way.

 

They can be in their own tiers, and the semi-autos and bows have a good drawback to justify their per-shot power. It's when you have a weapon that can do everything and it outperforms all other weapons is when you have an imba item in the game that needs to be given a drawback.

[DeadVoid118]

Well, some of you may have seen the idea of Damage 3.0, it seems to balance out element mods :D Yes to this