Giving Primes More Powerful/different Abilities That Still Keep The Theme Of That Skill

[Pbrandon1]

Edited to now include another example.

 

This time, it is Frost Prime!

[vaugahn]

I'm sorry but this is still a bad idea. The system we have now for primes works just fine, there's no need to introduce even more artificial progression into the game.

[Azawarau]

No. They are a collectable game object. I fail to see why you think they should have far more powerful abilities. They already have more polarized slots and slightly better stats. I's more then enough.

Aesthetics do nothing for gameplay factually

 

That makes no sense. That's like saying that the Dread is "useless" because it's an overall sidegrade to the Paris Prime.

 

When the Prime is stronger, that's when you get a useless item (e.g. the whole Ankyros Prime > Ankyros > Furax fiasco). When the Prime is equally viable as its regular counterpart (or another high-tier weapon, in the case of PPrime), then the player actually gets to choose the item that he likes without having to risk gimping himself.

Dread isnt a side grade to the paris

 

Its better on Infested and arguably for high lvl Grinner with Bleed procs

 

So your entire argument is we shouldnt have better primes because aesthetics?

 

Lets throw a curveball and say the primes can be skinned to look like the originals or have alternate skins that arent gold and obtainable in game?

 

Would you agree to it then or is there a hidden motive in your stance?

[Gryffinhart]

Nope.avi

They're not supposed to be stronger, they're meant as a status symbol. They already have "recharge energy from touching a death orb"  and rhino prime's slightly faster, so technically they already are better.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Gryffinhart

[Pbrandon1]

Nope.avi

They're not supposed to be stronger, they're meant as a status symbol. They already have "recharge energy from touching a death orb"  and rhino prime's slightly faster, so technically they already are better.

Dear lord..look back to my other posts and you will see that if balanced correctly, you can give results that do not even overshadow the original.

 

If you see, the frame has stronger abilities but longer cast times and limitations. The original have abilities that can be casted quicker and provide decent damage or utility. Basically creating the originals for Beginners and the Primes for Veterans.

[Pbrandon1]

Please people, read carefully and look back to my original posts. Remember that these abilities can be made to be affected by only certain mods and that with longer cast times and disadvantages, that this is creating powerful abilities but don't overshadow the original which is much faster then the Primed.

[vaugahn]

Dear lord..look back to my other posts and you will see that if balanced correctly, you can give results that do not even overshadow the original.

 

If you see, the frame has stronger abilities but longer cast times and limitations. The original have abilities that can be casted quicker and provide decent damage or utility. Basically creating the originals for Beginners and the Primes for Veterans.

 

Changing the abilities in any way is a bad idea. Check out renegade's thread, these are more reasonable. 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/280281-small-buffs-to-all-prime-warframes/

[shut]

Dread isnt a side grade to the paris

 

Its better on Infested and arguably for high lvl Grinner with Bleed procs

 

So your entire argument is we shouldnt have better primes because aesthetics?

 

Lets throw a curveball and say the primes can be skinned to look like the originals or have alternate skins that arent gold and obtainable in game?

 

Would you agree to it then or is there a hidden motive in your stance?

 

- Dread is an overall sidegrade to the Paris. While Bleed Procs are devastating to any enemy in the game, they are laughably unreliable (especially if you have a single element attached, which is vital for making the weapon viable in the first place). You might as well mod your bow with a maxed-out Heavy Caliber and pray for long-range headshots for all the good relying on bleed procs will do you.

Both are top-tier bows, with slightly different niches in both target advantages (Dread versus Crewmen/Infested, PPrime versus Robots/Grineer) and utility (Dread for faster projectile speed, PPrime for faster arrow nock speed). One will only appear as a "direct upgrade" to the other if its utility outweighs its stats, which is dependent entirely on the player.

 

 

- Aesthetics is a major reason, of course. Players shouldn't be forced into using a gold-trimmed item if they don't like gold, and giving the option to revert to the "unprimed" appearance would definitely help a lot.

You're forgetting about the fact that the lower-grade weapons will still be useless, though. Allowing the Ankyros Prime to look like the Ankyros or Furax isn't going to make the actual Ankyros or Furax any more appealing. Nobody in their right mind is going to spend real money on an Ankyros or a Furax when they can just get a direct upgrade to both of them for a fraction of the price in Trade chat. Giving each of these three weapons their own niche without necessarily making them perfect sidegrades (the Melee 1.0 Fangs and Fang Primes were a perfect example of this) gives players a larger variety of weapons to choose from, as well as more incentive to purchase more than one of the weapons. Players get more customization options, DE gets more money. Win-win.

 

It's a bit different for Frames, though. Frames are the "classes" of Warframe, and, as anybody who doesn't work for a Korean MMO company knows, classes should be made for different niches but remain equal overall. Making "Prime" classes that are a tier above the regulars (even if they can be reskinned to look identical to the originals) is not okay unless every class receives such an upgrade, which is not the case in Warframe (and, if the devs go through with their plans to discontinue Prime Frames after Vauban, possibly will never be).

It is okay for a couple of Frames to get "Prime" counterparts that are on the same tier.

It is okay for every single Frame to get "Prime" counterparts that are a tier above (although aesthetic options still remain an issue).

It is not okay for a couple of Frames to get "Prime" counterparts that are a tier above, because that leaves all the other Frames without Primes in the dust.

 

 

- I have no idea what you mean when you suggest that I have a "hidden motive" in my stance. You make it sound as though "I want all items and classes in a shooting game to be useful, with no content going to waste" can possibly be said with some sort of greedy or malicious intent.

What's so evil about wanting us players to have more customization options?

Edited August 2, 2014 by SortaRandom

[vaugahn]

(and, if the devs go through with their plans to discontinue Prime Frames after Vauban, possibly will never be).

 

This is false. All frames will be receiving primes (perhaps except valkyr)

[shut]

This is false. All frames will be receiving primes (perhaps except valkyr)

 

Could I get a source on this, please? I know for sure that they mentioned in a livestream from a while back that they may be stopping the whole Prime Frame thing past Vauban, since the Frames from Nova onwards are "designed by Tenno, not the Orokin".

 

I do hope you're right, though. While I would prefer every frame (Prime or not) being equal across the board, if every Frame gets a Prime with its own stat increase, then the only issues remaining are cosmetics and a readily-available high-tier counterpart for Excal (both of which are easily fixable; the latter possibly doable with some sort of "reverse-engineered-by-________" version of Excalibur with ExPrime having his stats boosted to match).

Edited August 2, 2014 by SortaRandom

[vaugahn]

Could I get a source on this, please? I know for sure that they mentioned in a livestream from a while back that they may be stopping the whole Prime Frame thing past Vauban, since the Frames from Nova onwards are "designed by Tenno, not the Orokin".

 

I do hope you're right, though. While I would prefer every frame (Prime or not) being equal across the board, if every Frame gets a Prime with its own stat increase, then the only issues remaining are cosmetics and a readily-available high-tier counterpart for Excal (both of which are easily fixable; the latter possibly doable with some sort of "reverse-engineered-by-________" version of Excalibur with ExPrime having his stats boosted to match).

 

I'll try and find the picture. 

 

Anyways, lore-wise Nova and Valkyr are the only ones who shouldn't have primes. Nova was supposedly created by the tenno council, and Valkyr was created by Alad V's experimentation. I don't think we will ever see a stat-boosted version of Excalibur for obvious reasons. 

 

I believe the original intent of that statement was to say that frames before Vauban have priority when it comes to priming, not that they're the only ones who will get primes.

[shut]

I believe the original intent of that statement was to say that frames before Vauban have priority when it comes to priming, not that they're the only ones who will get primes.

 

Ah, okay.

 

I may be wrong about that, but hopefully you still see my point. It's either "every Frame gets an upgrade" or "no Frame gets an upgrade" if the devs care about balance. XD

Edited August 2, 2014 by SortaRandom

[vaugahn]

Ah, okay.

 

I may be wrong about that, but hopefully you still see my point. It's either "every Frame gets an upgrade" or "no Frame gets an upgrade" if the devs care about balance. XD

 

Yeah. Still, the upgrades should only be very slight. Nobody should feel forced to use a prime, they're more akin to the gold gun skins in CoD than a direct power upgrade. 

[Azawarau]

- Dread is an overall sidegrade to the Paris. While Bleed Procs are devastating to any enemy in the game, they are laughably unreliable (especially if you have a single element attached, which is vital for making the weapon viable in the first place). You might as well mod your bow with a maxed-out Heavy Caliber and pray for long-range headshots for all the good relying on bleed procs will do you.

Both are top-tier bows, with slightly different niches in both target advantages (Dread versus Crewmen/Infested, PPrime versus Robots/Grineer) and utility (Dread for faster projectile speed, PPrime for faster arrow nock speed). One will only appear as a "direct upgrade" to the other if its utility outweighs its stats, which is dependent entirely on the player.

 

 

- Aesthetics is a major reason, of course. Players shouldn't be forced into using a gold-trimmed item if they don't like gold, and giving the option to revert to the "unprimed" appearance would definitely help a lot.

You're forgetting about the fact that the lower-grade weapons will still be useless, though. Allowing the Ankyros Prime to look like the Ankyros or Furax isn't going to make the actual Ankyros or Furax any more appealing. Nobody in their right mind is going to spend real money on an Ankyros or a Furax when they can just get a direct upgrade to both of them for a fraction of the price in Trade chat. Giving each of these three weapons their own niche without necessarily making them perfect sidegrades (the Melee 1.0 Fangs and Fang Primes were a perfect example of this) gives players a larger variety of weapons to choose from, as well as more incentive to purchase more than one of the weapons. Players get more customization options, DE gets more money. Win-win.

 

It's a bit different for Frames, though. Frames are the "classes" of Warframe, and, as anybody who doesn't work for a Korean MMO company knows, classes should be made for different niches but remain equal overall. Making "Prime" classes that are a tier above the regulars (even if they can be reskinned to look identical to the originals) is not okay unless every class receives such an upgrade, which is not the case in Warframe (and, if the devs go through with their plans to discontinue Prime Frames after Vauban, possibly will never be).

It is okay for a couple of Frames to get "Prime" counterparts that are on the same tier.

It is okay for every single Frame to get "Prime" counterparts that are a tier above (although aesthetic options still remain an issue).

It is not okay for a couple of Frames to get "Prime" counterparts that are a tier above, because that leaves all the other Frames without Primes in the dust.

 

 

- I have no idea what you mean when you suggest that I have a "hidden motive" in my stance. You make it sound as though "I want all items and classes in a shooting game to be useful, with no content going to waste" can possibly be said with some sort of greedy or malicious intent.

What's so evil about wanting us players to have more customization options?

Of course people will get the Ankryos and Furax and regular frames along with the primes

 

Theres no reason not to. Get it for the mastery and then move on

 

If making everything equal is so important then there wont be a set of tiers in weaponry or frames and everything is the same

 

Lets make the MK1 braton a near exact copy of the braton prime

 

And youre going under the assumption that people will spend money as well when you dont have to spend a dime to get the ankryos or furax

 

You just bluntly stated that they should stay the same without a very good supporting reason either

 

What reason would there be to not have a class progression? Rhino>Rhino prime

 

It should be that way otherwise youre just getting a good taste of RNG for something that looks arguably better/worse with no real reward for the effort

 

EDIT

 

Id like to calrify

 

Weapons should progress and there should be tiers

 

Latron prime should beat out the latron outright

 

Otherwise we have a false balance with weapons and frames where everythings the same and theres no real variety or scaling or progression outside of mods

 

This goes for primes too who are essentially useless

 

You didnt give a direct answer either

 

If primes could get regular or non gold appearances would you mind them being stronger?

Edited August 2, 2014 by Azawarau

[Pbrandon1]

Of course people will get the Ankryos and Furax and regular frames along with the primes

 

Theres no reason not to. Get it for the mastery and then move on

 

If making everything equal is so important then there wont be a set of tiers in weaponry or frames and everything is the same

 

Lets make the MK1 braton a near exact copy of the braton prime

 

And youre going under the assumption that people will spend money as well when you dont have to spend a dime to get the ankryos or furax

 

You just bluntly stated that they should stay the same without a very good supporting reason either

 

What reason would there be to not have a class progression? Rhino>Rhino prime

 

It should be that way otherwise youre just getting a good taste of RNG for something that looks arguably better/worse with no real reward for the effort

 

EDIT

 

Id like to calrify

 

Weapons should progress and there should be tiers

 

Latron prime should beat out the latron outright

 

Otherwise we have a false balance with weapons and frames where everythings the same and theres no real variety or scaling or progression outside of mods

 

This goes for primes too who are essentially useless

 

You didnt give a direct answer either

 

If primes could get regular or non gold appearances would you mind them being stronger?

We don't want the weapons just to be mastery fodder, that is when you know you have bad balancing....

 

Look, it would be better for Primes to be powerful but have disadvantages to them that make them more geared towards Veteran players.

 

The originals should be for New players so they can get a feel for the game and better themselves and when they are ready, go to a prime but not feel pushed towards it.

 

Make the gun or frame feel different then the original but still stick to the theme of what the frame is or gun.

 

EDIT: I don't think Primes should be just for bragging rights and blingage because if that is the case, then the RNG for them should be toned a-lot. All primes show is that you wasted your time getting a Frame just to look awesome and for you to have an extra polarity which you can get by adding Forma to your original frame. The stat boosts don't help much because all it does it make it where the Primes are still better then the original, even if it is slight...still better and even if it still doesn't matter, all your farming for is a skin, which should have just been put on the market.

 

If anything, obtaining primes should be different because if we are talking bragging rights, then it should be that you faced a really hard boss to obtain the thing or something really challenging and cool...like it literally tested your skill. The void is not that. Prime should be this:

 

Primes=Veterans

Originals= New Players to Not New players

Edited August 2, 2014 by Pbrandon1

[shut]

 EDIT:

Large wall of text, sorry.

 

Of course people will get the Ankryos and Furax and regular frames along with the primes

 

Theres no reason not to. Get it for the mastery and then move on

 

 

- Give me an example of a person who would purchase the Ankyros or Furax for any reason other than Mastery when they already have the Prime.

You say that there is "no reason not to" obtain the Ankyros or Furax. I can think of two:

1) waste of inventory space because the Ankyros Prime is simply better

2) cannot do anything in combat that the Ankyros Prime cannot do; thus, a waste of credits and resources

Cosmetics and mastery points aside, there is no reason whatsoever why any player should purchase either of these for platinum when a direct upgrade to both is available, at a cheaper price, at MR0.

There is no gameplay-based reason to obtain either of these weapons for any reason other than mastery. There is no gameplay-based reason to potato these weapons, or keep either of these weapons in your inventory after ranking them to 30, at all. This needs to change.

 

If making everything equal is so important then there wont be a set of tiers in weaponry or frames and everything is the same

 

Lets make the MK1 braton a near exact copy of the braton prime

 

- I did not say that I want weapons to be equal. However, weaker weapons should have at least one minor advantage compared to the stronger counterparts (e.g. how Melee 1.0 Fang Primes were infinitely stronger than the Fangs, but the Fangs were slightly faster). The MK1-Braton and Braton Prime shouldn't be sidegrades, of course (and there is no reason at all for them to have identical stats), but it would be nice to see a reason to not trash your MK1 the instant the Prime is obtained.

Tell me, what is wrong with having more incentive to keep a weapon in your inventory? Why are you so against it?

 

 

 

And youre going under the assumption that people will spend money as well when you dont have to spend a dime to get the ankryos or furax

 

- DE doesn't get any significant money from people crafting the Ankyros and Furax. DE does get significant money from people purchasing them-- but that simply does not happen, outside uninformed new players throwing their cash around before learning about the game. Giving these weapons a niche will help change this.

 

 

You just bluntly stated that they should stay the same without a very good supporting reason either

 

- I did not say that they should stay the same. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

 

 

What reason would there be to not have a class progression? Rhino>Rhino prime

 

It should be that way otherwise youre just getting a good taste of RNG for something that looks arguably better/worse with no real reward for the effort

 

- I gave several reasons why classes should not have progression. I will repeat them.

1) Cosmetics. Not everyone wants a golden avatar. (easily fixable)

2) Not every class has an upgrade. (not easily fixable)

If every class gets a Prime, then hey, full speed ahead with minor stat upgrades. But until that happens, I am vehemently against this.

 

- The "reward" in obtaining a Prime frame should be the blingage and bragging rights. As I already said, stat bonuses are out of the question until we're all certain that every single class will be receiving a readily-available Prime (and, even so, the stat bonuses shouldn't have gamechanging effects. RhinoP's +11% speed is already pushing it, although the blatant imbalance is more a result of the Vanguard Helm than anything).

 

 

 

EDIT

 

Id like to calrify

 

Weapons should progress and there should be tiers

 

Latron prime should beat out the latron outright

 

Otherwise we have a false balance with weapons and frames where everythings the same and theres no real variety or scaling or progression outside of mods

 

Once again:

- I did not say that Prime weapons should be the same as their unprimed counterparts. I did not even say that Prime weapons should be on the same tier as their unprimed counterparts. This is why I gave the Melee 1.0 Fang (Prime) as an example-- the Primes were an overall upgrade, there was still a reason to keep the Fangs in your inventory after the Prime was obtained. That reason was that the Fangs were slightly more mobile, despite having a crapton less damage.

 

- Dude, explain to me how giving more weapon options results in "no real variety". A straight-upgrade system is what results in "no real variety".

Do you see people using Latron instead of Latron Prime at high levels? No, you don't. There is no variety there.

Do you see people using Furax instead of Ankyros Prime at high levels? No, you don't. There is no variety there.

Do you see people using Paris Prime instead of Dread at high levels? Yes, you do. There is variety there.

 

 

 

This goes for primes too who are essentially useless

 

You didnt give a direct answer either

 

If primes could get regular or non gold appearances would you mind them being stronger?

 

I did answer that.

Repeating what I said above in case I wasn't clear about it: if Primes could be reskinned to look like their Unprimed counterparts, this would indeed scrap the whole "cosmetics" issue (and, frankly, I would love the Devs for it). However, there's still the issue that very few classes have Primes.

 

 

tl;dr:

- I want variety between weapon choices. More options for players, and more money for the devs. This cannot be fully achieved while we use a "straight-upgrade" system, but it can be achieved with a tier-based system in which the lower-tier weapons still have at least one reason to be used over their Primed counterparts.

- I want Prime frames to be on the same tier as the "originals", because that's what they were by concept-- "blingage" Frames obtained purely for bragging rights. However, if upgrades must be had, then it should only happen when you can reskin Primes to look "unPrime", and when we know that every single frame will 100%-for-sure be receiving a readily-available Prime. Neither of these are the case at the moment.

Edited August 2, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Azawarau]

We don't want the weapons just to be mastery fodder, that is when you know you have bad balancing....

 

Look, it would be better for Primes to be powerful but have disadvantages to them that make them more geared towards Veteran players.

 

The originals should be for New players so they can get a feel for the game and better themselves and when they are ready, go to a prime but not feel pushed towards it.

 

Make the gun or frame feel different then the original but still stick to the theme of what the frame is or gun.

 

EDIT: I don't think Primes should be just for bragging rights and blingage because if that is the case, then the RNG for them should be toned a-lot. All primes show is that you wasted your time getting a Frame just to look awesome and for you to have an extra polarity which you can get by adding Forma to your original frame. The stat boosts don't help much because all it does it make it where the Primes are still better then the original, even if it is slight...still better and even if it still doesn't matter, all your farming for is a skin, which should have just been put on the market.

 

If anything, obtaining primes should be different because if we are talking bragging rights, then it should be that you faced a really hard boss to obtain the thing or something really challenging and cool...like it literally tested your skill. The void is not that. Prime should be this:

 

Primes=Veterans

Originals= New Players to Not New players

Weapons wouldnt be mastery fodder if there were a proper weapon progression

 

Weapons should be tiered and players should feel a sort of progression with weapons getting stronger as they go along through mastery ranks

 

Alot of this is stopped by the many weapons that are extremely powerful but low in mastery

 

IMO

 

Primes should be outright better but not in a way that makes the older frames entirely useless

 

Id rather them not have a clear disadvantage in something though. That just feels backwards

 

Anything but useless aesthetics that many players dont like anyways

[genclaymore]

 

Exactly. Its progression.

 

It just seems odd, that it can take hours of farming very specific missions for very specific rewards, not to mention the weeks of effort of grinding gear and weapons to the point where I can farm these missions, to get a frame that is almost completely identical to the first frame I ever built.

Which why i will never built a prime warframe unless they skills are different other then just being a change of paint. If I gonna do all of that work they better be different. Other wise they might as well turn all of the primes into skins for the same exact warframe's and make new prime warframe's that are only avabile as primes.

[Goodking]

Yes, I have T4 before and if you had read the entire carefully thread, some of these abilities provide a reduction in damage like Bull Charge, Steel Coat, and Screech...you would basically be the tank you wanted but not be able to spam the skills. You could do heavy damage, tank damage, but not be able to spam the skills, and not be able to go at mph speeds. You could still go on..not just be insanely overpowered.

 

Side Note:Plus...we really need to find something other then more damage for enemies and more armor....it's nice but we need more of a challenge...you know?

 

Plus, we can have it where you can buy the Prime skin for Rhino or if you have the Prime, you can change the skin for it. Maybe even have you farm for the skin. Plus, a status symbol is something that is suppose to represent someone's social or economic standing...all the primes do now is just show that a person farmed hours just for a skin and an extra polarity that can be added with one forma and others just had platinum to blow. 

 

Yeah, new players may go insane over seeing a prime in the flesh for the first time, but once they realize what they really are, it's like I look cool..but I'm just playing the same guy...and wasted hours over it...

 

Yeah, I'm going to have present more ideas so people can get a better understanding...*sigh*

More ideas so they can get a better understanding? 

 

I see what your idea is, and I understand it. I actually like it.

 

Fact is, that the many players do not want primes to have different skills.  A prime warframe simply IS a skin and a polarity.  Probably the stats could use a slight tweak/buff, since the primes are a bit superior.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Goodking

[Mak_Gohae]

Give them the ability to combined powers!

As explained in this thread

 

 

Rhino P gets: Iron Roar! Gives teammates a weaker version of IS that just blocks status effects like the original.

 

Frost P gets: Freeze Globe. Launch a freeze shot that when it hits the enemy it explodes into a small snow globe slowing the enemies down.

 

ExP gets: Slash n Blind: What it doesnt kill it blinds!

 

Ember P gets: Fireball of Fire! Combines WoF and FB. You launch a fire ball that leaves a trail of fire explosions as it travels.

 

Loki P gets: Decoy Switch! He drops a decoy that when it's hit by an enemy it switches with the enemy that hit it.

 

Mag P gets: Bullet Polarize! It combines those two things, you know what it does.