colb0lt Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) I completely understand making the game easier for new players but after seeing everything you are doing, i'am starting to think that new players are too spoon fed. We all had to figure out everything by our selves but now players get everything handed to them and are told how to do everything, but everything in the game is in the wiki that any one at any time can access and that I personally have used a lot as it is extremely helpful. New players have even got better starting weapons and now get volt, which is not fair for people that played the game before U14, volt for us has to be obtained from the dojo and takes quite a few resources and a very long time to make. I'm not saying everything is bad as some of the new stuff is very helpful like the new tutorial and UI is very helpful but if it keeps just giving the new players everything the game will be too easy and in my honest opinion, I enjoyed the learning curve as once you got it, it became easy to do, but i too agree that it was too steep but now i feel like its not really a curve at all now as you are told everything and how to do everything. Edited August 1, 2014 by colb0lt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzaku4489 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 While too much hand-holding can be bad, the community as a whole can benefit. If the game better explains parts of itself, then people will become less frustrated when they can't figure something out, or they won't end up being useless in certain situations and end up saying "Oh, is that how it works?". If people are less frustrated, they're more likely to stick around, spend money, and give the game more praise and recommendations to others. New players aren't getting better weapons. They just get to test out different styles, but they still come out with the same Braton/Lato/Skana as everyone else always has. The change from Loki to Volt as possible starters was also a good move because I can't count how many times I saw "I picked Loki. This frame sucks. Can I start over? No? Ok, uninstalled", and what does it matter if Volt is a bit of a pain to acquire when you're starting from scratch? Players can choose Excalibur as a starter, and he drops from Pluto, the highest level planet in the game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rekkou Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Why volt being starter frame again is such a big fuss. Not every new player chose Volt. And for those who didn't chose him still need to obtain him through Dojo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colb0lt Posted August 1, 2014 Author Share Posted August 1, 2014 Why volt being starter frame again is such a big fuss. Not every new player chose Volt. And for those who didn't chose him still need to obtain him through Dojo. that is true but what about the ones that do choose him, they have the advantage over the others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyzilla Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Wasn't Volt originally one of the starter frames anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colb0lt Posted August 1, 2014 Author Share Posted August 1, 2014 While too much hand-holding can be bad, the community as a whole can benefit. If the game better explains parts of itself, then people will become less frustrated when they can't figure something out, or they won't end up being useless in certain situations and end up saying "Oh, is that how it works?". If people are less frustrated, they're more likely to stick around, spend money, and give the game more praise and recommendations to others. New players aren't getting better weapons. They just get to test out different styles, but they still come out with the same Braton/Lato/Skana as everyone else always has. The change from Loki to Volt as possible starters was also a good move because I can't count how many times I saw "I picked Loki. This frame sucks. Can I start over? No? Ok, uninstalled", and what does it matter if Volt is a bit of a pain to acquire when you're starting from scratch? Players can choose Excalibur as a starter, and he drops from Pluto, the highest level planet in the game! i didn't see it like that, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
direcyphre Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Yeah, eff the n00bs! Dark Souls FTW!! No, but seriously, this is what we call 'accessibility' or the ability for new players entering a game to have all the tools necessary to understand the game. This game is not about figuring stuff out on our own, even though many of us had to through all the game-changing updates. It should never dictate that we be hindered by some manner of pseudo-difficulty just because we need to look elsewhere to find the answers. In the end, player retention is important, as well as not having to answer the same questions everytime a new player asks in their first week of playing. that is true but what about the ones that do choose him, they have the advantage over the others Not really sure how you have determined it gives an advantage. All players are still able to acquire all frames without paying a dime. If anything, Volt is the easiest because there are tons of clans with fully-built dojos who don't have strict application standards. It doesn't really matter what frame you start out with, as you'll acquire more as you play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArgonTheFox Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Wasn't Volt originally one of the starter frames anyway? Yes, he was a starter frame, however then he was removed, and made a boss reward, then he got removed from boss drop tables, then he was put into a random drop table similar to Oberon, but as a mission reward, then he was put into the clan dojo, which makes him significantly harder to get if you're in a new/young clan. Excal and Mag are boss drops, which makes them significantly easier to get than Volt. Its not on par, and its unfair, even for new players. If a new player picks Excalibur, and thinks "Hm. I wish I chose Mag." they can get her instantly, just by killing the boss a few times, whereas with Volt, theres the big to-do with the Dojo and research. Its not equal, and its just unfair, even on new players. I think all the starter frames should just be boss drops. Just because he was a starter frame once-upon-a-time doesn't mean its appropriate for him to be a starter frame now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colb0lt Posted August 1, 2014 Author Share Posted August 1, 2014 Yeah, eff the n00bs! Dark Souls FTW!! No, but seriously, this is what we call 'accessibility' or the ability for new players entering a game to have all the tools necessary to understand the game. This game is not about figuring stuff out on our own, even though many of us had to through all the game-changing updates. It should never dictate that we be hindered by some manner of pseudo-difficulty just because we need to look elsewhere to find the answers. In the end, player retention is important, as well as not having to answer the same questions everytime a new player asks in their first week of playing. Not really sure how you have determined it gives an advantage. All players are still able to acquire all frames without paying a dime. If anything, Volt is the easiest because there are tons of clans with fully-built dojos who don't have strict application standards. It doesn't really matter what frame you start out with, as you'll acquire more as you play. again, i didn't see it like that, its just me and my clan didn't really get our clan running so getting volt was hard for us, but i didn't realize that others had it, i just felt like it was much harder than the other warframes as them you only need to kill a boss 4 times on advarage, but dojo warframes are harder as they take much more time and more resources to even make the bps, that's what i was sorta trying to say, but i think i failed at it, and i still don't feel like i'am explaining it right, so sorry for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbaliskInfinite Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 that is true but what about the ones that do choose him, they have the advantage over the others What are you on about m8? Mag and Excalibur do their own things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colb0lt Posted August 1, 2014 Author Share Posted August 1, 2014 Yes, he was a starter frame, however then he was removed, and made a boss reward, then he got removed from boss drop tables, then he was put into a random drop table similar to Oberon, but as a mission reward, then he was put into the clan dojo, which makes him significantly harder to get if you're in a new/young clan. Excal and Mag are boss drops, which makes them significantly easier to get than Volt. Its not on par, and its unfair, even for new players. If a new player picks Excalibur, and thinks "Hm. I wish I chose Mag." they can get her instantly, just by killing the boss a few times, whereas with Volt, theres the big to-do with the Dojo and research. Its not equal, and its just unfair, even on new players. I think all the starter frames should just be boss drops. Just because he was a starter frame once-upon-a-time doesn't mean its appropriate for him to be a starter frame now. ^^ This is what im sorta trying to say about volt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kartumterek Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I completely understand making the game easier for new players but after seeing everything you are doing, i'am starting to think that new players are too spoon fed. We all had to figure out everything by our selves but now players get everything handed to them and are told how to do everything, but everything in the game is in the wiki that any one at any time can access and that I personally have used a lot as it is extremely helpful. New players have even got better starting weapons and now get volt, which is not fair for people that played the game before U14, volt for us has to be obtained from the dojo and takes quite a few resources and a very long time to make. I'm not saying everything is bad as some of the new stuff is very helpful like the new tutorial and UI is very helpful but if it keeps just giving the new players everything the game will be too easy and in my honest opinion, I enjoyed the learning curve as once you got it, it became easy to do, but i too agree that it was too steep but now i feel like its not really a curve at all now as you are told everything and how to do everything. the downfall of our once great civilization begins (again) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
direcyphre Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 again, i didn't see it like that, its just me and my clan didn't really get our clan running so getting volt was hard for us, but i didn't realize that others had it, i just felt like it was much harder than the other warframes as them you only need to kill a boss 4 times on advarage, but dojo warframes are harder as they take much more time and more resources to even make the bps, that's what i was sorta trying to say, but i think i failed at it, and i still don't feel like i'am explaining it right, so sorry for that. I'm pretty sure 4 times is not average, but I guess it depends on what RNG changes they've made in recent history. I found the dojo builds to be pretty easy, because the research costs are relatively low for small clans. I solo researched most of it myself just to get it out of the way (even though I had all of the frames at the time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tehnoobshow Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) There's bigger problems about the new player experience than what Warframe they get. For one, it still doesn't explain how to play the game. Once they finish the tutorial they're like: "Ok, I have Venus, now what do I do?" Not to mention that they aren't taught how to mod things and which mods are essential, nor are they taught how to build things (the "buy blueprint" buttons are half the size of the "buy weapon for plat buttons") and get resources (you can't even see planets you haven't unlocked yet), nor are they taught how to complete different mission types. If you haven't played this game or something similar before, I guarantee that you will rage quit 30 minutes after the tutorial. How in the world is that spoon feeding? Edited August 1, 2014 by Tehnoobshow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grillv20 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Each of these frames get a decent amount of shield and decent crowd control skills. Excalibur gets AoE Blind. Mag has abilities to push enemies around + bullet attractor, volt gets a shield and a skill to buff party members. Each has a 4 skill that can clear rooms when used. This is really just a pointless thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzaku4489 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) ArgonTheFox makes a fair point, but there's the fact that building a dojo and researching while still small is a very, very easy. The amount of resources required to fully research Volt could literally be obtained within a couple of hours from a single player. If your clan members split up to hit different resources as needed, you could probably have everything in less than an hour. After that, it's just a waiting game, and then he's at your fingertips whenever you want him. Once the research is done, the RNG is completely out of the way. You could very easily do 50 runs on Mars, and come out with 50 Mag Helmets, or you just walk up to the console in your dojo, insert your credit card (get it?), and BAM, instant full set of Volt blueprints. Edited August 1, 2014 by Suzaku4489 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorbanGado Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Just because he was a starter frame once-upon-a-time doesn't mean its appropriate for him to be a starter frame now. He's a heck of a lot easier to use for the average know-nothing player coming into it than Loki ever could be. He also is quite the eye-catcher over his hammerhead shark comrade. It's not a big deal, everyone still has access to everything - particularly with frames being added to the Dojo labs. Of course, people will argue "but (guy), it's like impossible to get all that dojo stuff by yourself!" And I respond that I got all the basic labs and the likes myself solo, so it's not impossible regardless of how difficult it may be. Heck, when I first started, I picked loki because "haha, it says for advanced players. I wonder how I'll do" - you know how long it took me to get Excalibur? Good lord, I think I actually got my first prime frame before I got around to clearing the map enough to get Excalibur! In general though, I have never, and will probably never (unless someone out there is an incredible explainer) understand why everyone always complains about somebody having it easier than them. It's a game man - one that's not even technically finished yet - and the point of games is to have fun. I'm more than happy to see things be easier to catch on to, so players can more quickly become moderately skilled at contributing to the game instead of not even understanding how to use a power. Not like it tells you how to do many of the mobility based things such as the flip jump anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacobLittle Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Yes, he was a starter frame, however then he was removed, and made a boss reward, then he got removed from boss drop tables, then he was put into a random drop table similar to Oberon, but as a mission reward, then he was put into the clan dojo, which makes him significantly harder to get if you're in a new/young clan. Excal and Mag are boss drops, which makes them significantly easier to get than Volt. Its not on par, and its unfair, even for new players. If a new player picks Excalibur, and thinks "Hm. I wish I chose Mag." they can get her instantly, just by killing the boss a few times, whereas with Volt, theres the big to-do with the Dojo and research. Its not equal, and its just unfair, even on new players. I think all the starter frames should just be boss drops. Just because he was a starter frame once-upon-a-time doesn't mean its appropriate for him to be a starter frame now. Or they can make him a boss drop like he originally was and keep him as starter. That would be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 The answer to a problem in a game mechanic or should never be "it's on the wiki" to complete a game you should be able to access all things in engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugahn Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Yes, he was a starter frame, however then he was removed, and made a boss reward, then he got removed from boss drop tables, then he was put into a random drop table similar to Oberon, but as a mission reward, then he was put into the clan dojo, which makes him significantly harder to get if you're in a new/young clan. Excal and Mag are boss drops, which makes them significantly easier to get than Volt. Its not on par, and its unfair, even for new players. If a new player picks Excalibur, and thinks "Hm. I wish I chose Mag." they can get her instantly, just by killing the boss a few times, whereas with Volt, theres the big to-do with the Dojo and research. Its not equal, and its just unfair, even on new players. I think all the starter frames should just be boss drops. Just because he was a starter frame once-upon-a-time doesn't mean its appropriate for him to be a starter frame now. Implying it's in any way difficult to research volt. He's most definitely an appropriate starter frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorbanGado Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) There's bigger problems about the new player experience than what Warframe they get. For one, it still doesn't explain how to play the game. Once they finish the tutorial they're like: "Ok, I have Venus, now what do I do?" Not to mention that they aren't taught how to mod things and which mods are essential, nor are they taught how to build things (the "buy blueprint" buttons are half the size of the "buy weapon for plat buttons") and get resources (you can't even see planets you haven't unlocked yet), nor are they taught how to complete different mission types. If you haven't played this game or something similar before, I guarantee that you will rage quit 30 minutes after the tutorial. How in the world is that spoon feeding? It explains the functionality of how these things work. Following the mission chain, it goes "Oh, we need to remove that thing from your leg. Let's use this blueprint that guy gave you - oh no, you don't have the resources. I guess you'll need to go get them." Yes, you are right that it doesn't for the most part explain how to use the UI itself (such as the market), and I admit I can probably find my way around that easy just from having played games for so many years. The missions - Lotus tells you mostly what to do if you listen to her during missions. I know this because she still does, even after you've logged more than 1000 hours in the game. "Oh no Tenno, they've turned off life support. I'm sending you a capsule to restore it now" Sure, the specifics on how much it restores and the likes may not be there, but she does indeed tell you how it works. Again though, you are right in that they don't teach you anything about the mission elements of the UI. Maybe some of the stuff I take for granted coming from all the games I've played (Oh, a bar that drops called Life Support? I don't think I want that to hit zero) isn't obvious to other players, and perhaps we should have the devs make the tutorial mission actually pause the game to introduce each and every one of these elements by red boxing them and having text that says specifically what it's all about. That being said, the transitions between planet bit could be handled a bit better in explanations (the whole "beat boss of the world to move on), but again - it's something I've been accustomed to from other games for years, so it never struck me as a hard thing to follow. Edited August 1, 2014 by KorbanGado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grillv20 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Or they can make him a boss drop like he originally was and keep him as starter. That would be better. except he was originally a starter frame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HackShield Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I completely understand making the game easier for new players but after seeing everything you are doing, i'am starting to think that new players are too spoon fed. We all had to figure out everything by our selves but now players get everything handed to them and are told how to do everything, but everything in the game is in the wiki that any one at any time can access and that I personally have used a lot as it is extremely helpful. New players have even got better starting weapons and now get volt, which is not fair for people that played the game before U14, volt for us has to be obtained from the dojo and takes quite a few resources and a very long time to make. I'm not saying everything is bad as some of the new stuff is very helpful like the new tutorial and UI is very helpful but if it keeps just giving the new players everything the game will be too easy and in my honest opinion, I enjoyed the learning curve as once you got it, it became easy to do, but i too agree that it was too steep but now i feel like its not really a curve at all now as you are told everything and how to do everything. volt was even before u8 a start frame and got changed by loki for a long time just in u14 came back so there isnt any bad thing about it he was just re iterdruced to it and the new starter weapons was hardly needed cuse braton and lato didnt done the deal anymore after the 2.0 changes everywhere. and why spoon feeded , are you just jealous you dont had that preferance? otherwise its ok how it is cause the starting need to get a bit easier otherwise its would be bad if you join in the game with a big face slap and if you fought trough all that you ohko all. hm seems for me better for a easier start at it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snydrex Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 You know, you can skip the prologue.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzaku4489 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) Or they can make him a boss drop like he originally was and keep him as starter. That would be better. except he was originally a starter frame And he originally dropped from a boss (J3 Golem on Jupiter, was it?). Your point? Edited August 1, 2014 by Suzaku4489 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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