ElHefe Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 (edited) Currently, there are two prevailing views as to why the Tenno revolted against the Orokin ... Revenge or Justice (for discussions of both see Teqnologyque's great thread "Let's Talk Lore") The Revenge Conjecture is derived from Ember's Codex where children were sent into the Void by the Orokin and a modicum of extrapolative psychology or "that's how I would feel if I was treated that way." The main counterargument to this idea is the so-called Stockholm Syndrome of victim assimilation of captor identity. The Justice Doctrine is based upon the (inferred) existence of a Tenno Credo - to maintain "balance" - which originates from comments made by The Lotus during the introduction and with various in game missions. BUT ... Just how tyrannical were the Orokin? How "bad" were they really? Were they INTRINSICALLY warlike? What would have been so "out of balance" for the Orokin to remain in power after the Old War? So, here are some - NOT complete - observations (Lore fact mixed with deduction): 1. Orokin civilization flourished for an extended period of time (at least on a human scale) BASED upon their height of technological achievement (and assuming that they think and work on a human time scale ...) 2. Orokin society had a (rigid?!) hierarchical structure - including a ruling elite, a rank stratified military and with that would have had a complex system of laws and regulations as well as morality (again see Ember's Codex) 3. The Orokin rulers countermanded their OWN laws (again Ember's Codex) when they became desperate - BUT, as history shows even "peaceful" nations become harsh, even cruel under the pressure to survive during times of war 4. The Orokin and the Tenno fought a common enemy - the Sentients. There is nothing to indicate that had the Sentients won, they would have distinguished Orokin from Tenno. YET, even war-weary, the Tenno immediately embark on civil war - this would be historically unprecedented. Consider the bitter conflict that ensued after the assassination of Julius Caesar or the atrocities which occurred during the Peloponnesian War(s). Hardly "balance" restored there ... As ever, I look forward to your thoughts and critiques ... Edited August 2, 2014 by ElHefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeygray Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 dont forget the Corpus call the tenno "The Betrayers" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugahn Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 It seems to me like 3 is the most likely option here. From what we know of them, the Orokin seemed to consider themselves the zenith of civilization, and while they designed exceptional weaponry the layotus of most of their towers seem very civilian-oriented and excessively decorative. We also know that tenno culture valued discipline and chivalry, it makes sense that they would inherit these traits from their masters. However, with their backs against the wall as they were losing the Great War they gave in to the pressure and turned children into weapons, not something even a rigid but moralistic society would do. The behavior of the tenno can be explained by their upbringing; many child soldiers have difficulty integrating back into society, and often believe the war they were fighting in is still going on, leading them to lash out at friends and family. (in our case, the Orokin) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeccanTraps Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 The layouts of their towers are civilian oriented? You mean the places with rotating laster death traps, sliding laser death traps, fixed place laser death traps, mind controlling 'neural sentries' gun turrets, and defensive emplacements that are built into the floors of most rooms? if that's peaceful, what exactly qualifies as war-like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugahn Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 The layouts of their towers are civilian oriented? You mean the places with rotating laster death traps, sliding laser death traps, fixed place laser death traps, mind controlling 'neural sentries' gun turrets, and defensive emplacements that are built into the floors of most rooms? if that's peaceful, what exactly qualifies as war-like? Those are all hidden away, and half the rooms have chairs and tables in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted August 2, 2014 Author Share Posted August 2, 2014 @ vaugahn ... sorry, I hadn't meant for 1, 2, 3 to be CHOICES - just some facts to get the discussion rolling The fact that the Orokin had been around for long time would imply that they had figured out HOW to rule The question I was trying to get everyone's thoughts on was the MANNER in which the Orokin ruled Were the Orokin harsh oppressors or were they benign dictators? What was it about the WAY the Orokin ruled that would have been unacceptable to the Tenno Credo of "Balance"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugahn Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 What was it about the WAY the Orokin ruled that would have been unacceptable to the Tenno Credo of "Balance"? "Balance' feels more like a justification for the self-serving actions of the tenno than any real ideology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I get the feeling that someone else was just offering more battle pay than the Orokins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted August 2, 2014 Author Share Posted August 2, 2014 (edited) The layouts of their towers are civilian oriented? You mean the places with rotating laster death traps, sliding laser death traps, fixed place laser death traps, mind controlling 'neural sentries' gun turrets, and defensive emplacements that are built into the floors of most rooms? if that's peaceful, what exactly qualifies as war-like? Good point ... but in EVERY major airport in the world there are security check points with armed guards Doesn't matter if it's bellicose North Korea or peaceful Canadia ... If the Orokin had ruled for a very, very long time, given the fact that HUMANS comprised the citizenry, the Orokin would have been very, very careful Domestic security does not necessitate imperialistic warmongering Put it another way: I have a lock on my front door out of convention. I also have a very big dog in my house (her name is Hera - she's a 65 lb Siberian). Doesn't mean I have the dog there as additional security Edited August 2, 2014 by ElHefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted August 2, 2014 Author Share Posted August 2, 2014 "Balance' feels more like a justification for the self-serving actions of the tenno than any real ideology. Agreed. But I reiterate ... just what is being kept in balance? Balance from what? Would the Orokin would have been so giddy with success over the Sentients that they would have taken their rule to an even higher level? Would the war-hardened Orokin waged war on other civilizations? Maybe those in the Void? Maybe those where the Sentients came from? Maybe the Orokin learned how better to control their own civilian population more effectively and with greater certainty, virtually enslaving them? If anything, winning the Old War would be some sort of game changer for the Orokin ... The question remains - changed how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugahn Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Agreed. But I reiterate ... just what is being kept in balance? Balance from what? Would the Orokin would have been so giddy with success over the Sentients that they would have taken their rule to an even higher level? Would the war-hardened Orokin waged war on other civilizations? Maybe those in the Void? Maybe those where the Sentients came from? Maybe the Orokin learned how better to control their own civilian population more effectively and with greater certainty, virtually enslaving them? If anything, winning the Old War would be some sort of game changer for the Orokin ... The question remains - changed how? I think the fall of the Orokin was more because of the tenno than the Orokin. The Orokin had just miraculously been brought back from the brink of extinction, and they now were back at square one essentially. They were about to go off and rebuild their empire, and for some reason the tenno decided this wasn't acceptable. Perhaps they believed, justified or not, that the Orokin were too powerful to be allowed to exist? Perhaps it was revenge for the Orokin using them as weapons? Balance is a simple justification for what's essentially a selfish motivation: keep all the factions in line, with tenno on top. Maybe they thought that since the Orokin couldn't win the war and they could, that they should rule? Also, I don't think there's anything in the void...from the descriptions we have of it, it's anathema to reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morec0 Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I think the fall of the Orokin was more because of the tenno than the Orokin. The Orokin had just miraculously been brought back from the brink of extinction, and they now were back at square one essentially. They were about to go off and rebuild their empire, and for some reason the tenno decided this wasn't acceptable. Perhaps they believed, justified or not, that the Orokin were too powerful to be allowed to exist? Perhaps it was revenge for the Orokin using them as weapons? Balance is a simple justification for what's essentially a selfish motivation: keep all the factions in line, with tenno on top. Maybe they thought that since the Orokin couldn't win the war and they could, that they should rule? Also, I don't think there's anything in the void...from the descriptions we have of it, it's anathema to reality. All there's anything in the Void are probably the remnants of the Orokin structures the Tenno couldn't destroy or bury (see the Orokin ruins in that one pit on the ice-world set), and given the only the children that became the Tenno miraculously came back while so many others failed to it's also HIGHLY likely that nothing can live in that place (without the intervention of the mind-controlling Neural Sentry, which the Orokin most definitely would not want to use on themselves). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugahn Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 All there's anything in the Void are probably the remnants of the Orokin structures the Tenno couldn't destroy or bury (see the Orokin ruins in that one pit on the ice-world set), and given the only the children that became the Tenno miraculously came back while so many others failed to it's also HIGHLY likely that nothing can live in that place (without the intervention of the mind-controlling Neural Sentry, which the Orokin most definitely would not want to use on themselves). Orokin technology seems to be shielded somehow, as the towers are unaffected and our lisets can fly around in the void. Anything without Orokin shields doesn't seem to be able to stay in the void for long without some serious problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snydrex Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 This could be answered easily. On your next invasion against the grineer, just turn to a corpus buddy and open your mouth, and have a pleasant chat about politics and celebrity gossip. At the end of the conversation, just ask: "By the way, why do you call us the betrayers?" with clear words- WHY CAN'T WE TALK????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morec0 Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 This could be answered easily. On your next invasion against the grineer, just turn to a corpus buddy and open your mouth, and have a pleasant chat about politics and celebrity gossip. At the end of the conversation, just ask: "By the way, why do you call us the betrayers?" with clear words- WHY CAN'T WE TALK????? Well, the Tenno CAN'T talk. Personally, I'd say this is because of whatever the Void did to us - robbed us of our ability to speak somewhere along the line... Or maybe the Orokin did to us for some reason? I prefer the Void-based version myself, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snydrex Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Well, the Tenno CAN'T talk. Personally, I'd say this is because of whatever the Void did to us - robbed us of our ability to speak somewhere along the line... Or maybe the Orokin did to us for some reason? I prefer the Void-based version myself, though. To be completely fair, Valkyr can yelp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderius Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 To be completely fair, Valkyr can yelp. Mirage can smile. Well, could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morec0 Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 (edited) To be completely fair, Valkyr can yelp. Mirage can smile. Well, could. AND laugh. But being able to make sounds is a different thing from being able to format words. It may not be a thing with our Tenno(s') vocal cords, in fact it probably isn't given those two accounts, but there IS such a thing as Broca's Aphasia - in the real world is leaves people with the ability to only speak a few words even though they can think and process information without issue. To clarify: you could ask them the time and, although they would be able to look at a clock and realize that it says "10:30" when they turn back to tell you that all they might be able to say is "apple". A logical sci-fi extension of that COULD be what the Tenno (seem to) demonstrate: the ability to make basic sounds (cries, laughter) but at the same time be unable to form words (even though we seem to be able to understand them just fine). Edited August 2, 2014 by Morec0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted August 2, 2014 Author Share Posted August 2, 2014 (edit) it's also HIGHLY likely that nothing can live in that place (Void) If you are referring the possibility of NATIVE life, that is not necessarily so ... There are chemoautotrophic bacteria that live in sea floor volcanic vents which generate bioenergy from inorganic chemicals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderius Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 If you are referring the possibility of NATIVE life, that is not necessarily so ... There are chemoautotrophic bacteria that live in sea floor volcanic vents which generate bioenergy from inorganic chemicals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morec0 Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 If you are referring the possibility of NATIVE life, that is not necessarily so ... There are chemoautotrophic bacteria that live in sea floor volcanic vents which generate bioenergy from inorganic chemicals And the Void is a place which seemed to completely devour nearly everyone else that ever went into, including the crew of the Zariman, it except for an unknown-sized group of children (who, judging by the wording of Ember's' codex MAY have BEEN the crew), to which it granted superhuman powers unlike anything else. It's DIFFICULT to make a comparison between the Void and undersea volcanoes, but you're right; there MAY be something there, but, as is the case with the vacuum of space, at this juncture I think it's safe to assume that nothing SENTIENT is waiting for us in that place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted August 2, 2014 Author Share Posted August 2, 2014 I think the fall of the Orokin was more because of the tenno than the Orokin. The Orokin had just miraculously been brought back from the brink of extinction, and they now were back at square one essentially. They were about to go off and rebuild their empire, and for some reason the tenno decided this wasn't acceptable. Perhaps they believed, justified or not, that the Orokin were too powerful to be allowed to exist? Perhaps it was revenge for the Orokin using them as weapons? Balance is a simple justification for what's essentially a selfish motivation: keep all the factions in line, with tenno on top. Maybe they thought that since the Orokin couldn't win the war and they could, that they should rule? Also, I don't think there's anything in the void...from the descriptions we have of it, it's anathema to reality. I see your point that following the Orokin-Sentient War, the Orokin would have to "rebuild" but that doesn't make it "square one" First, like any other war-victorious nation, the Orokin would have LEARNED new technologies and new methods from the war They may have also made a leap in space/dimensional exploration - found new regions to study, exploit - maybe even conquer and colonize Perhaps it was what was GAINED through their experience of the War that made the Orokin more of a treat to "balance" Were the postwar Orokin DIFFERENT from what they were? I feel that so far, we have not gotten any closer to grappling with that question ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briar_Wolf Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 If you are referring the possibility of NATIVE life, that is not necessarily so ... There are chemoautotrophic bacteria that live in sea floor volcanic vents which generate bioenergy from inorganic chemicals That's the bottom of Earth's oceans. The Void is an alternate dimension where our laws of physics do not apply, and there mat indeed not even be a set way in which the Void works. It's basically the Warp from Warhammer 40K, minus the horrific, mind flaying, lying and violating Daemons. Though the Tenno have been called "Void Demons" and such, so perhaps we are the Daemons of the Warp in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viridias Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 The Void gets referred to with expressions along the lines of "hellspace where our reason and science fail", so I'd put my money on whatever native life might exist there being so utterly different from anything in this reality as to render the whole question academic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted August 2, 2014 Author Share Posted August 2, 2014 That's the bottom of Earth's oceans. The Void is an alternate dimension where our laws of physics do not apply, and there mat indeed not even be a set way in which the Void works. It's basically the Warp from Warhammer 40K, minus the horrific, mind flaying, lying and violating Daemons. Though the Tenno have been called "Void Demons" and such, so perhaps we are the Daemons of the Warp in this case. My point was directed at the implicit assumption of using common experience to judge things It is a common pit fall of human reasoning - to formulate conjecture based upon human experience Therefore, whether an environment is "livable" is typically interpreted in terms of human physiology What I am driving at is that the most FLEXIBLE position is to avoid that trap ... As an aside, there is the qualitative distinction between being comfortably livable and being starkly survivable Consequently, I don't see how the lack of understanding by the Orokin changes that simple point In fact, it affirms it - from an Orokin perspective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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