Solo Play And Mob Count

[Semshol]

...This thread is ridiculous. You go to maps where mob killing is not the objective and complain about mob spawns? That's stupidity.

 

Go play endless survival for two hours, then come talk about mobs.

[Babellon]

...This thread is ridiculous. You go to maps where mob killing is not the objective and complain about mob spawns? That's stupidity.

 

Go play endless survival for two hours, then come talk about mobs.

well now, I'm sorely disappointed, since I wrote this entire thread seeking after your approval. Of course you must be right, why bother bringing up my thoughts on maps other than survival for 2 hours, when obviously its of no importance, to you.

 

Now, if you'd like to bring up a logical valid counter point, pertaining to this thread and the topic at hand please do feel free.

Edited August 4, 2014 by -LTO-Malachi

[Gryffinhart]

well now, I'm sorely disappointed, since I wrote this entire thread seeking after your approval. Of course you must be right, why bother bringing up my thoughts on maps other than survival for 2 hours, when obviously its of no importance, to you.

 

Now, if you'd like to bring up a logical valid counter point, pertaining to this thread and the topic at hand please do feel free.

ikr, who thought mob count on exterminate and such would matter any?

 

... exterminate's a sodding pushover.

[Mokkania]

well now, I'm sorely disappointed, since I wrote this entire thread seeking after your approval. Of course you must be right, why bother bringing up my thoughts on maps other than survival for 2 hours, when obviously its of no importance, to you.

 

Now, if you'd like to bring up a logical valid counter point, pertaining to this thread and the topic at hand please do feel free.

But he's right, you're ignoring a lot of things.

 

 

-You're ignoring stealth play maybe?, stealth is out if mob numbers are too high

 

-spawn numbers are affected by various things factions, infested usually have more the new eris in particular, planet lvl starters have less, mission difficulty (1-5 don't know if it's still there in U14), mission types for consistence doesn't necessarily need high mobs count (sabotage, capture)

 

-need to think about the tilesets too, can't put 300 mobs on 6 rooms (but you did mention something about it)

 

-some people doesn't want more ? I'm not sure why people seem to think the main thing about warframe is the mobs count.

 

- when you're new in solo there are times when you can actually run out of ammo with starter weapons and no mods, following that even if you try to add to the spawn count while trying to calibrate with planet levels, progression is tied with rng drops meaning there are people who are understuffed even at pluton, and similarly they could run out of ammo just like new players. (though personally I don't think it's a problem)

 

- some time ago there were something DE said like they want missions to be on average a certain time (5-15 minutes maybe?)

 

I get what ya'll are saying, even if some a bit sarcasticly, My point is,, 41 mobs on a map makes for a very empty map. I get that I can go do defense, or survival, that still doesn't mean the normal maps should be nearly empty. It is very anticlimactic to go through that effort of developing weapons, frames, all that, then go on a map and only get  41  mobs, on the entire map. 

 

Yes I have had maps spawn more mobs than that, I'm saying more than anything that it should be a norm to get 200+ mobs on a run, not a random rarity. to that point I think the mechanics which govern mobs spawn rates, and min-max count  should be examined a little more closely. maybe my numbers are a bit over the top. How ever I also think an empty  map  makes for no fun. When I go from end to end of a map, and make a loop 3 times, hunting for mobs, and barely break  100, or in the case of corpus break 150, its to thin. 

 

Those screen shots are of completed missions, where i walked the entire map, searching for mobs, I didn't just run to the objective and run to the extraction, I searched for mobs. 41 kills, 64 kills, heck, 195 kills, is low, when you've gone over the entire map to find them.. 

Two points

First

A norm of 200+ mobs on a run is only your opinion, it's not a problem to have an opinion but don't expect everyone to agree.

I'm talking about that

 

 

ikr, who thought mob count on exterminate and such would matter any?

 

to respond to someone above me- No I don't want to just "easy farm maps", I want to feel like Im actually engaged in combat, in a war, not playing hide and seek, while  I navigate the entire map, looking for those random spawns, and low mob counts.

 

41 mobs total, on the entire map for a capture mission on Uranus is low, very low.. when you  explore the entire map, those maps aren't tiny, and 41 mobs spread out over the entirety of it makes for a lot of empty space. Not all of us want to just speed run, hit the objective and race to extraction, just to do it over and over again. And I think its about time some of the gamers, the soloists start speaking up, before People who want to insist they keep lowering the mob count ruin this game with  suggestions about how hard they have it if they actually have to pause and fire that weapon for more than a few seconds.

 

Yes I acknowledge that I have gotten higher mob counts than that on maps in the past, I have gotten upwards of 7-900 kills on maps on occasion, but again, that shouldn't be a rare occasion, and I should never encounter an empty map and yes, I consider 41 mobs on Uranus to be an empty map. 

Second point

You make an interesting gameplay point as someone who seek kills by exploring, but still the same, there might be people like you that explore to get more kills because the exploration come with fights, and people who explore for curiosity while thinking that the current spawn is okay.

The thing is associated with that it could be possible to make different mechanics favoring increased spawn counts for those who would want it but that's not what your thread is about. Your thread is about increasing spawns disregarding other people's opinions?

Edited August 4, 2014 by Mokkania

[Viverim]

If you speedrun and in some easy stage like Saturn, yes, you don't meet many mobs, but if you take it easy (and in endgame you'll have to unless you equip some press to win frame) you'll notice the enemies will pop out of nowhere from thin air and will be even harder to deal with too.

I still remember the latest infestation event, i was praying God to make the game stop sending mobs endlessy and let me progress with the stage rather than just keep spamming the melee attack button.

This. 

 

What irritates me most about most mission types is the endless spawn, spawn, spawn.  Yes, I want opposition, but I don't want to be trapped in a room or some other cover while mob after mob of enemies zerg swarms at me.  Minimum of 200+ enemies at all times?  Yeah, I play for fun, not to slog, slog, slog through a mission.  Make that kind of change and I'll go play something else when I want just a fun, casual game experience.

[Babellon]

You both bring up valid points. While I'm not honestly trying to advocate massive spawns and endless counts on maps that completely stall a player from proceeding, at the same time there needs to be some degree of stability to the number of mobs you get. I do like to explore and I do like to kill things when I do it, If we're running through empty maps because for random reason the mob count is under 100, we end up with nothing to shoot and since this is a shooter that sort of defeats the point of being on the maps. 

 

In my original post my screen shot there, and a couple more after that demonstrate the point, This shouldn't be a "run to point A and quick sprint to extraction" type of game. Having more or at the least, a stable mob count, insures that there is actually something there on the map, that resistance we are there trying to fight. Mob counts do matter. Maps are boring when there's barely any mobs to shoot at. 

 

This isn't runescape or one of those little tinky non combat games were you just roam around and talk to people. This is a combat game. No mobs means no combat. I realize this is all "just my opinion" and in my opinion there's no point to playing a combat game if A: you don't like combat, B: you just want to run on empty maps and avoid combat all together while chatting with friends.

 

I play to shoot things, because I'm on a shooter type video game. So I want things to be there for me to shoot at, when I log into a map, consistently and regularly, from beginning of the map to the end of the map. whether i head straight to the objective, or run to that side hallway and go through every section of the ship/base, I should find mobs. 

 

Fighting the mobs isn't optional, it is the primary purpose.

Edited August 4, 2014 by -LTO-Malachi

[Mokkania]

I'm still getting confused when you talk about mob count,

What you actually want is a consistent battle feeling I think?

[Babellon]

I'm still getting confused when you talk about mob count,

What you actually want is a consistent battle feeling I think?

That is accurate yes,, I find it frustrating to walk  through room after  room with nothing to do but look at the scenery, the lava pool is cool and all but its  not why I'm  there. Consistent battle is very accurate.

[Mokkania]

Ok, some while ago someone made a thread, he went on a sabotage mission on mercury and found 6 ennemies which actually weren't on the path between his start room to the objectives and way out (he had to go find them) -something like that thread-

 

 

This is a bit complicated overall

some things I'm pointing out

First of all wanting a consistent battle feeling is something understandable and a bit more talking than just mob counts, because deserted mission are obviously boring. (general consensus)

Back to something said earlier about going survival defense, mission that don't focus on killing have less ennemies is ...somewhat true but it's not a good justification, to say, it doesn't justify low numbers of ennemies. (how low the number is, is subjective obviously)

 

Among what I already said mission difficulty is an important point, some time ago there were a problem with T3 survival having not enough ennemies, less ennemies less personal oxygen drops, I think, the mission difficulty was 1 and they fixed it by increasing it to 3 or 5 (something like that), what I mean is that the mission difficulty seems to be an important factor in regards to ennemy numbers.

But since U14 I don't know if it's still active or not.

 

There is the thing about solo difficulty, I'll think about it later.

 

----

 

For now I see 3 ways to go about it

 

- Push for overall "high" spawn

Problem is the difference of pov from players but even then it's still possible to impose it. Devs are the one who choose if they think the game would be more enjoyable easy or hard, fast paced slow paced etc... But when a game is a certain type and change to another the usual custom is that the Devs explain why they change the thing.

 

- Mission type separation

Middle ground solution, for coherence certain mission have good numbers of ennemies and certain type have less.

 

- Active spawn mechanics

Keeping the current state but putting some way to add more ennemies for those who want more, for exemple something like gradual spawn increase alarm.

 

There might be some other solutions.., also for overall high spawn numbers you need at least some feedback to see if people agree that sometimes numbers of ennemies seems too low.

[Babellon]

The reason I started this thread about mob count was because of low numbers on several missions I have been running. I agree though simply increasing amount of mobs may not be the solution to the situation. Alot of times, I will go into  a map, and move from beginning to end, without doing the objective, for the thrill of the kill, and experience, mostly just for the fun of shooting things. What I've noticed is, that after a certain point, the mobs stop spawning. Which is perhaps more of what I find bothersome. 

 

If a player or team wants to go to objective and then straight to extraction they should certainly have that option, of course. How ever at the same time, If someone like myself, wants to camp a map a while, and just go back and forth through the area it doesn't seem logical to me that the mobs simply go away. Which was the thought process that led to mob count. I think that we should get a consistent spawn rate, through out the map, whether we just go to objective and extraction, or run through farming kills. A responsive spawn system ( if there is such a thing), I think is important. In that when I'm traversing that map there should be opposition for me to face, whether I'm heading to objective, or extraction, or avoiding both in favor of simply enjoying the combat itself.

 

active spawn mechanics, yes, I think that is a great idea, perhaps a way for us to trigger an alarm at the terminals, which causes an increase to the mobs if we desire it. Also I think its important that mobs don't just stop spawning, or despawn. 

[Galuf]

tryed farming elite crewmen today solo. Well in the capture map they spawn the most imho(cambria) they wasn't spawning much. Even after tweaking 12 times the alarm.

 

Fun fact I kill more of them doing Neso's exterminate than any survival and I get above 25mn solo wich is not much still.

[unknow99]

Did you actually play the hive missions?...

 

If you really want a dynasty warrior population for each solo mission, I think that the best option may be the addition of difficulty settings.

 

[Normal mode || hard mode* || nightmare mode** ]

 

*Powerful enemies+large amount of spawn.

 

**You can choose to play it for any node once you completed the entire starchart.

 

That way noobz won't be affected by this change (evolving isn't an easy task for them, and solo play is hard, I know what I'm talking about...) and if you want a little challenge,you just have to click a button. Everyone is happy. :)

[Babellon]

I do like the idea of a player option to up difficulty. There was another thread which offered up a very similiar suggestion, and I hope that at some point it might be implemented. Being able to choose additional modes - normal-hard-heroic, aside from the nightmare mode, would be in my opinion a nice addition. That way, as you say, someone like myself could have the option to play on a mode that increased mobs, difficulty and so forth, while not effecting those who like the norm as it is now.

[Naftal]

You can't compare the nonendless nonexterminate missions like you have. You get randomized layout for the map every time and the spawns differ depending on your position in a specific tile and the amount of unlocked doors the tile has. It also highly varies on the time when you set off the alarm and the total mission length.

[Galuf]

No it doesn't Naftal. There are some spawns but these are very eratic in some maps. Like 2 mobs per minute average or less. At least in Cambria, only map I checked. In infested and greeners maps it seems better spawn wise. But corpus spaws are wrong. It's not farmable. I understand that the maps are difficult for newer entry players but still, some mods are not farmable or very poorly because of that.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Galuf

[Naftal]

No it doesn't Naftal. There are some spawns but these are very eratic in some maps. Like 2 mobs per minute average or less. At least in Cambria, only map I checked. In infested and greeners maps it seems better spawn wise. But corpus spaws are wrong. It's not farmable. I understand that the maps are difficult for newer entry players but still, some mods are not farmable or very poorly because of that.

What exactly doesn't?

[Gurrend]

Here's a tip to try. Do a capture mission. down the target but don't capture him. Let me know how that works for you.

[Babellon]

Here's a tip to try. Do a capture mission. down the target but don't capture him. Let me know how that works for you.

I have, on numerous occasions. Sometimes, mobs will run in from other rooms, sometimes, mobs will spawn directly in that location. Other times, no mobs at all will appear, I've traveled around an entire capture map, downed both targets, and had the entire map go empty. This is why the matter needs to be examined, the inconsistent numbers, the absence of mobs all together in some parts of the maps, I run one mission, get 150 mobs, run same mission again, get 200, run same mission again get 50. I've often been of the impression that somehow RNG not only effects drops but mobs and spawns as well. which may or may not be true, but the fact that I find completely empty maps, or maps with dismally small mob counts all equates to an inconsistency that needs to be addressed.

 

I have done this experiment with multiple mission types and found this to happen on all of them. 

Sabotage- 

capture-

Mobile defense-

spy-

deception-

I have found that if you keep in one area, killing, and wait for about 10 minutes there the mobs stop spawning all together, move to a different area, expecting more mobs, and the number of spawns gets smaller as you go. I have had several occasions where after killing until the mobs stop spawning, doing the objective, and making my way to extraction completely uncontested. I have completed sabotage missions without a single mob trying to stop me from destroying the objective. I have completed mobile defense missions standing at the objective watching the timer tick and no mobs appear at all. I have had capture missions in which not only did the target not move or evade at all, but no mobs appeared to prevent me from capturing him.  

Edited August 6, 2014 by -Malachi-

[Nagisawa]

You know, I read this and I think "Man, this is much better than it was before."  When you could kill over 300 mobs on a Mercury Map, assuming you had a decent Warframe, like Rhino or Nova,

 

However, I think that the real issue is not mob density.  It's XP per Mob.  What we need is a better XP to Kill ratio for Solo.

 

Here's the thing, when soloing you're not going to get much in the way of drops.  Never have.  So why not keep that, but expand the amount XP for soloists?

[Babellon]

You know, I read this and I think "Man, this is much better than it was before."  When you could kill over 300 mobs on a Mercury Map, assuming you had a decent Warframe, like Rhino or Nova,

 

However, I think that the real issue is not mob density.  It's XP per Mob.  What we need is a better XP to Kill ratio for Solo.

 

Here's the thing, when soloing you're not going to get much in the way of drops.  Never have.  So why not keep that, but expand the amount XP for soloists?

While I see what your trying to say here, The primary purpose to my mind when going to these missions is to fight the mobs. Completing the objective is the goal, the mobs are the obstacle. without that obstacle there is no point to the goal. We have these frames that have massive powers and so many weapons to level, but they're all useless and pointless if we go to a map and theres nothing to use those powers or weapons on.

I remember back in january, when I started, I was in love with it, mercury, venus, earth, all the planets, spawns were amazing, even when solo, then they implemented this " mobs scale to party size" "solo play will see less resistance" "we have to worry about the new player", and in doing so, they made solo play seem vacant and empty on far to many occasions. I'm all for xp increase, don't get me wrong, but I personally, I cannot speak for every soloist out there, log into maps for the kill. That is the enjoyment part of the game for me. Objectives, xp, resources, credits, those are secondary factors to me. This is a shooter, as long as we're on a map, no matter what part of the map we're on, there should be something to shoot at.

[TenshuYuusha]

That is accurate yes,, I find it frustrating to walk  through room after  room with nothing to do but look at the scenery, the lava pool is cool and all but its  not why I'm  there. Consistent battle is very accurate.

Don't turn off the alarm then. :v

 

The point of most of the missions at 0 alarm is the enemies are on patrol routes, they don't know you're/we're there, so why send a lot of troops for routine patrol?

 

Once the alarm goes off though, you've triggered their "S#&$ just got real" button. Just stay on their radar and you've got your higher spawns. It's like complaining there's too low of enemy spawns in MGS when you actively stay away from Alert mode because you want to kill things through your entire stay on the map.

Edited August 6, 2014 by TenshuYuusha

[Babellon]

Don't turn off the alarm then. :v

 

The point of most of the missions at 0 alarm is the enemies are on patrol routes, they don't know you're/we're there, so why send a lot of troops for routine patrol?

 

Once the alarm goes off though, you've triggered their "S#&$ just got real" button. Just stay on their radar and you've got your higher spawns. It's like complaining there's too low of enemy spawns in MGS when you actively stay away from Alert mode because you want to kill things through your entire stay on the map.

until the mobs stop spawning and the maps go empty....at times, those spawns amount to all of 10 mobs total. and I don't turn off the alarms, Im not sure where you make that assessment at. I unlock doors. the alarm stays on the  entire time Im in the mission, I go out of my way to make sure the mobs set off the alarm so that I am detected. the point is, the maps do not always spawn mobs in a rational way, the mobs stop spawning after a certain points, and the maps are completely empty in sections. the alarmss  aren't the problem the spawn rates, and consistency of mobs in the entire map  is the problem. when I go to a capture and no mobs appear at all, just me and  the capture target I have to ask, where are the mobs...when I run a sabotage mission, and no mobs at all aappear till I reach extraction and then only about a dozen or so, I have to ask, where are the mobs.

again, no one is talking about avoiding alarms. 

Edited August 6, 2014 by -Malachi-

[DSpite]

to respond to someone above me- No I don't want to just "easy farm maps", I want to feel like Im actually engaged in combat, in a war, not playing hide and seek, while  I navigate the entire map, looking for those random spawns, and low mob counts.

 

41 mobs total, on the entire map for a capture mission on Uranus is low, very low.. when you  explore the entire map, those maps aren't tiny, and 41 mobs spread out over the entirety of it makes for a lot of empty space. Not all of us want to just speed run, hit the objective and race to extraction, just to do it over and over again. And I think its about time some of the gamers, the soloists start speaking up, before People who want to insist they keep lowering the mob count ruin this game with  suggestions about how hard they have it if they actually have to pause and fire that weapon for more than a few seconds.

 

Yes I acknowledge that I have gotten higher mob counts than that on maps in the past, I have gotten upwards of 7-900 kills on maps on occasion, but again, that shouldn't be a rare occasion, and I should never encounter an empty map and yes, I consider 41 mobs on Uranus to be an empty map. 

 

I fail to see how you can possibly be "engaged in combat" when the whole objective is ... to complete the objective? If you want a challenge, run the NIghtmare versions. The normal ones are sleep fests when your equipped properly.

 

You ran Uranus Sabotage, and the highest level there is 18-19, with a Rank 25 Nova, and Rank 30 Gear. Whatever point you intend to make is wasted on how easy it would be even with 400 mobs coming at you, at once, and promptly M.Prime exploding all at once.

 

You should not get 900 kills on maps. You are farming a map, not RUNNING a mission. The mobs should apply pressure on you to FINISH the mission, not have stuff to casually shoot as you saunter through the tileset. This is the same broken mentality of people that want to stay for an hour on defense missions. The mobs are there to get them to LEAVE, not provide more entertaining target practice. DE should have made a VR Dojo room for people to do that, not actual "missions" that people just farm for drops.

 

If the maps ALLOW everyone to loiter without scaling enemies - which normal maps don't - people will just farm mods or drops. You can't have it exactly your way.

[Babellon]

I fail to see how you can possibly be "engaged in combat" when the whole objective is ... to complete the objective? If you want a challenge, run the NIghtmare versions. The normal ones are sleep fests when your equipped properly.

 

You ran Uranus Sabotage, and the highest level there is 18-19, with a Rank 25 Nova, and Rank 30 Gear. Whatever point you intend to make is wasted on how easy it would be even with 400 mobs coming at you, at once, and promptly M.Prime exploding all at once.

 

You should not get 900 kills on maps. You are farming a map, not RUNNING a mission. The mobs should apply pressure on you to FINISH the mission, not have stuff to casually shoot as you saunter through the tileset. This is the same broken mentality of people that want to stay for an hour on defense missions. The mobs are there to get them to LEAVE, not provide more entertaining target practice. DE should have made a VR Dojo room for people to do that, not actual "missions" that people just farm for drops.

 

If the maps ALLOW everyone to loiter without scaling enemies - which normal maps don't - people will just farm mods or drops. You can't have it exactly your way.

And this is the same tired mentality of people who want to speed run maps with no resistance. the point of mobs is to offer resistance to completion of the objective. if all of the maps are empty, then theres nothing to do but click an  objective and leave, this is a shooter, if you aren't playing to shoot at enemies, why are you playing, I play to shoot enemies, that is why we farm the gear, that is why we go after the resources, that is why we build the weapons, that is why we level them up, it is why we have the powers on the warframes. No mobs means no point to being on the map in the first place. You shouldn't have empty maps. there should be resistance to you all the way through the map. whether i choose to stay on a map for 10 minutes, or 1 hour, there should be mobs on the map. Endless defense, survival and nighmare modes, aren't the only maps, and should not be the only maps were mobs spawn regularly. there is more to this game than just running to the objective uncontested and running to extraction to get some little reward. 

 

I want a game that is fun and engaging, no matter what mission I run, or how long I spend on any given map. this isn't some Iphone app game, or runescape, or facebook party games. This is Warframe. you make  a broad and bored assumption about how I am playing, that nova in those screenshots has no powers, only a shield mod, and a health mod, my weapon does  my killing. and fact is, it doesnt matter how a player kills the mobs, none of the frames or weapons matter at all if there is no resistance, no obstacle,, IE-no mobs to shoot at or use those powers on.

Edited August 6, 2014 by -Malachi-

[DSpite]

This was me doing Sabotage on Uranus, Setebos 18-19. Rhino Prime, using only a Glaive, un-potatoed, with 3 mods on it.

 

http://i.imgur.com/zE6D1OO.jpg

 

80 Enemies, map included, just running to objective. Not a big map. Fits 80 enemies perfectly. 5 main tiles, 3 connector corridors, that an average of 16 enemies per large room.

 

Absolute slaughter with a thrown weapon. I can only guess what I would do with an assault rifle that's not flying through the air most of the time.

 

Please explain what kind of challenge you even expect on such a map with YOUR setup.