Armor Calculation

[Spacetimer]

Whenever I look through comments of people discussing what elements to build, I see recommendations for Radiation (against Napalms/Bombards) or Corrosive (Heavy Gunners in the void). What doesn't click with me is why Viral doesn't cover all your bases here.

 

Say we have Krog the Napalm. Krog has 2700 Alloy Armor.

 

We now hit Krog with 1000 Radiation damage, then 1000 Viral damage.

 

From the formula, this results in 1/(1+2700/300) = 0.1, so 10% incoming damage.

 

With Radiation, 75% more damage gets through, so Krog takes 175 damage.

 

With Viral, the armor doesn't get any special multipliers, but the 100 damage gets scaled up to 175 due to Krog's Cloned Flesh weaknesses.

 

 

So either way, Krog ends up taking the same damage, and you wouldn't run into Bertha the Heavy Gunner's lack of weakness to Radiation. What gives? 

 

 

EDIT=> Immediately occurred to me that the armor resistances could be scaling the armor rather than the mitigation. In that case, you'd look at 100/(1+0.25*2700/300) = ~30.8% damage mitigation, so 308 damage. Will investigate when it's less ridiculously late.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Spacetimer

[Krymanol]

Yeah, anyway back on topic...

 

I did just run the numbers and I think the radiation damage was calculated wrong, here is what I came up with...and I'll post the formula's to go with this just to show how I came up with the numbers...

 

Calculating The targets base armor for it's level

ModifiedBaseArmor = baseArmor + baseArmor x 0.005 (currentlevel - baselevel) ^ 1.75

 

baseArmor = 500 alloy

currentlevel = 55 (NOTE: 55 or 54 is the closest level a napalm can be to get as close to the 2700 armor mentioned in the OP, I just used 55 here).

baselevel = 6 (the starting level napalms spawn at)

 

2769 = 500 + 500 x 0.005 x (55 - 6) ^ 1.75

So the targets modified base armor for level 55 is 2769 (rounded it up).

 

Calculation the targets armor modifier that will apply against our damage output.

ModifiedArmorReduction = 1 - ModifiedBaseArmor x (1 - ArmorModifier) / (ModifiedBaseArmor x (1 - ArmorModifier) + 300)

 

ArmorModifier = 0.75 (the value listed in the alloy column for the enemies armor type).

 

0.302 = 1 - 2769 x (1 - 0.75) / (2769 x (1 - 0.75) + 300)

So the armor modifier is 0.302

 

Calculating the damage of our weapons verse the targets health

ModifiedBaseDamage = WeaponsBaseDamage x (1 + ClonedFlesh)

 

ClonedFlesh = 0% (Radiation has no modifier to cloned flesh, aka health pool)

 

1000 = 1000 x (1 + 0)

So the weapons damage output before it hits the target.

 

Calculating the final damage after the targets armor mitigation

ModifiedFinalDamage = ModifiedBaseDamage * ModifiedArmorReduction

 

302 = 1000 * 0.302

So the final damage done to the napalm with a starting damage of 1000 radiation should be 302 damage per shot.  

 

 

Now If the math is wrong or something in the game has changed then I apologize for any misinformation.   But these formula's I dug up long ago and when testing the results in the game for many weapons, they proved to be correct (minus some oddities in damage when procs apply, such as corrosive procs).   So don't shoot the messenger, I did not create these formula's, someone else in these forums did :P

 

 

 

So basically what this says is without the radiation armor bonus, the naplam would normally reduce the radiation damage by 90%...but since radiation has a 75% bonus to alloy armor, the napalms 90% armor reduction gets reduced to 69.8%.   So the 1000 radiation damage gets reduced to 302 damage.

 

Now if you went and added the 75% bonus listed in the alloy column to that final 302 damage (which appears to be what Naftal did) you'd get 528.5 damage.   That would then mean that you'd be applying the 75% bonus twice, once to reduce the targets armor and another to boost the damage of the weapon AFTER the armor reduction.   I don't think that is the way it works. 

 

So if all this is correct, the radiation damage is 302 and the viral damage is 175.  The viral damage has no armor bonus or penalty so the targets armor will always reduce the viral by 90% at all times.   The Viral does have a 75% bonus to health which radiation does not have and so that makes the virals damage (before armor mitigation) 1750.  With the 90% armor reduction then applying, the viral then deals 175 damage per shot to the napalm.

 

Now from here is where my previous posts where referring to.   If you "happen" to get a viral proc, the targets health will be reduced by 50% of it's current maximum.   To take advantage of this proc in order to rely on it in any way, you "MUST" use a high status chance weapon so that the proc can occur within the few shots, the sooner the better (which is why Tysis is king of proc weapons right now due to it being able to get 100%+ proc chance).   Having a high status chance with radiation does not help increase the damage you do.   Radiation proc is more of a CC type of proc, stopping the enemy from shooting you, while viral proc is a pure damage boosting proc (helps you kill faster).  This is why you can't just compare the raw radiation damage to the viral damage, because viral damage at any time can get a huge boost from it's viral proc.

 

So with that said, there are many different weapons and combinations of damage elements and procs you can have in game.  What you choose to use should always be based around the type of damage you want to equip.  If you want procs to factor in (stuns, halved hp, confuse, lowered shields..etc.) to help you manage the control of the fights, then you need to equip high status chance weapons.    If you prefer pure damage output hopefully for fast killing, then you should probably use high crit chance weapons, preferrably with the highest base damages you can get (that don't include mods that boost IPS damages).  Weapons with combination of both crit chance and status chance can go either way, depends on the base damage already on the weapon.

 

Also the more damage types you have on your weapon, the less effective and reliance you can have on procs because you are not guaranteed to always get the proc you want or need.    So putting viral damage on a weapon that already has impact, puncture, slash and radiation, will not gain you any reliable benefit from the viral proc.   

 

 

Again, if something has changed in the past 5 months with the way damage is applied, then please let me know.  I have not been playing this game enough as of late to notice any changes in damages.

[Naftal]

The bonuses against armor also ignore that portion of the armor.

 

So that 1000 radiation damage would ignore 75% of that armor applied against the radiation damage. The enemy would only have 675 armor which equals to little over 30% damage going through. To simplify lets say it's exactly 30%. Radiation would do 300 damage which is then multiplied by +75% so it would deal total of 525 damage compared to the 175 damage dealt by Viral.

[[DE]Momaw]

It would be really nice if we had a combat log feature that gave us real numbers for our abilities and attacks.   It has been implied that the game already gathers some information like this it's just not presented to the user in any way.  When I was playing Star Trek Online, I used a tool that could analyze detailed combat logs generated by the game and led to all kinds of analysis and optimization for ship builds.

[Agullimux]

Boar + radiation/viral. Not sure if pellets/shot make it more effective as status weapon than non slug weapons but feels good.

[Krymanol]

The bonuses against armor also ignore that portion of the armor.

 

So that 1000 radiation damage would ignore 75% of that armor applied against the radiation damage. The enemy would only have 675 armor which equals to little over 30% damage going through. To simplify lets say it's exactly 30%. Radiation would do 300 damage which is then multiplied by +75% so it would deal total of 525 damage compared to the 175 damage dealt by Viral.

 

Don't forget that viral also halves the enemies HP for about 6 seconds...so there is only half the health to chew through.  Oh and viral gets 75% damage bonus to HP too.

 

So say that the target has 5000 health...the radiation would need 10 shots to kill the target...but the viral only needs to chew through 2500 health and would only need 8 shots (when you include the +75% bonus damage to health and the halving of the health pool).

 

Also, it's been about 5 months since I last bothered looking at damage formulas but looking at the numbers in this thread doesn't seem quite right....I'm gonna have to pull out the old warframe formula spreadsheet and play with those numbers.   I could be wrong since it's been so long, but I'm thinking the damage in the above formula could be calculated wrong.

 

 

It would be really nice if we had a combat log feature that gave us real numbers for our abilities and attacks.   It has been implied that the game already gathers some information like this it's just not presented to the user in any way.  When I was playing Star Trek Online, I used a tool that could analyze detailed combat logs generated by the game and led to all kinds of analysis and optimization for ship builds.

 

Yes, In my opinion every game should have a combat log.   Every game I've played that has one always has myself or someone else create a tool that helps decrypt (if needed) the log file, analyze it and help us optimize weapons and builds.    Heck I've even said that in recent years players have dug so much into game files, engines and mechanics that they are so very close mimicking damage formula's and such that devs should just start releasing the "Real" damage formula's to use.   I mean when you take warframe and build a formula that produces exact and accurate results as the game shows, why not at that point just tell players the real formula so we can get rid of the decimal point guess work...but that'll never happen.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Krymanol

[Darzk]

So say that the target has 5000 health...the radiation would need 10 shots to kill the target...but the viral only needs to chew through 2500 health and would only need 8 shots (when you include the +75% bonus damage to health and the halving of the health pool)..

This assumes that Viral procs on the first shot - the proc is not anywhere near common enough on most weapons to make this assumption. Plus, the thread wasn't about quantifying the procs; I could easily argue that incoming DPS from other enemies shooting the irradiated enemy and the fact that he's not shooting back is just as valuable of a proc.

[Krymanol]

This assumes that Viral procs on the first shot - the proc is not anywhere near common enough on most weapons to make this assumption. Plus, the thread wasn't about quantifying the procs; I could easily argue that incoming DPS from other enemies shooting the irradiated enemy and the fact that he's not shooting back is just as valuable of a proc.

 

I'm just talking about time for us to kill the target when radiation or viral damage is equal before armor mitigation...the OP said 1000 for both right!   So I'm merely adding in the fact that as long as viral procs any time except on the kill shot or never, it's like doing 50% of the targets health in damage.   So you are taking half of it's health out of the equation any time you get that proc, which means you only need half the damage output as any other damage type that can't halve the health.  

 

Now obviously if you use a weapon with low status chance or that has 5 different damage types, your chances of getting a viral proc is slim and none...but nobody is talking about that, at least I am not....I shouldn't have to spell out all the conditions that someone should use viral damage...but if you are going with viral damage at all, you better be talking about using a weapon with a high status chance (hopefully 50% or higher...but 37% is still better than 2.5%, 5% or 10%. 

[Naftal]

I'm just talking about time for us to kill the target when radiation or viral damage is equal before armor mitigation...the OP said 1000 for both right!   So I'm merely adding in the fact that as long as viral procs any time except on the kill shot or never, it's like doing 50% of the targets health in damage.   So you are taking half of it's health out of the equation any time you get that proc, which means you only need half the damage output as any other damage type that can't halve the health.  

 

Now obviously if you use a weapon with low status chance or that has 5 different damage types, your chances of getting a viral proc is slim and none...but nobody is talking about that, at least I am not....I shouldn't have to spell out all the conditions that someone should use viral damage...but if you are going with viral damage at all, you better be talking about using a weapon with a high status chance (hopefully 50% or higher...but 37% is still better than 2.5%, 5% or 10%. 

If the enemy has 200/1000 hp left when viral procs, it'll then have 100/500 hp, which is much smaller decrease compared to proccing it on the first hit...

 

How viral proc works, it effectively gives double damage buff for the duration, so if you proc it later when they don't have much hp left, it's much worse.

[Krymanol]

If the enemy has 200/1000 hp left when viral procs, it'll then have 100/500 hp, which is much smaller decrease compared to proccing it on the first hit...

 

How viral proc works, it effectively gives double damage buff for the duration, so if you proc it later when they don't have much hp left, it's much worse.

I know how it works, I've done a couple months of testing various guns, builds and combinations of status procs.

 

Again, this is why I said if you are gonna use viral damage, you better go with a high status chance weapon (so you'll get the proc in the first few hits, anything less is pointless to use viral damage in my opinion).  I'm not saying that you should factor in the proc on a 5% status chance weapon.   Come on guys I shouldn't have to cover every single detail that "MAY OR MAY NOT" happen.   Everything in this game is a chance...hell for all I know you might be a bad shot and miss 5 shots in a row even with a 150,000% status chance weapon....but I'm not here for assumptions or arguing.  I'm just trying to remind people that there are other things to factor in than just pure damage of the shot.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Krymanol

[Naftal]

I know how it works, I've done a couple months of testing various guns, builds and combinations of status procs.

 

Again, this is why I said if you are gonna use viral damage, you better go with a high status chance weapon (so you'll get the proc in the first few hits, anything less is pointless to use viral damage in my opinion).  I'm not saying that you should factor in the proc on a 5% status chance weapon.   Come on guys I shouldn't have to cover every single detail that "MAY OR MAY NOT" happen.   Everything in this game is a chance...hell for all I know you might be a bad shot and miss 5 shots in a row even with a 150,000% status chance weapon....but I'm not here for assumptions or arguing.  I'm just trying to remind people that there are other things to factor in than just pure damage of the shot.

But this thread is purely about armor calculation, nothing else.

[Krymanol]

But this thread is purely about armor calculation, nothing else.

And the health of the target is as much part of it's ability to survive as it's armor is.  It's all related, less hp or less armor both means faster kills.

[Quizel]

nvm off topic 

 

Edited August 3, 2014 by Quizel

[Spacetimer]

ModifiedArmorReduction = 1 - ModifiedBaseArmor x (1 - ArmorModifier) / (ModifiedBaseArmor x (1 - ArmorModifier) + 300)

 

ArmorModifier = 0.75 (the value listed in the alloy column for the enemies armor type).

 

Ah, that's what I was missing!

 

Good discussion fellas. I'll tinker around with Wolfram or Matlab tonight and compare Viral/Radiation/Corrosive against status chance and enemy level.

[Darzk]

Now if you went and added the 75% bonus listed in the alloy column to that final 302 damage (which appears to be what Naftal did) you'd get 528.5 damage.   That would then mean that you'd be applying the 75% bonus twice, once to reduce the targets armor and another to boost the damage of the weapon AFTER the armor reduction.   I don't think that is the way it works. 

Sorry, but that's the way it works.

 

1000 Radiation damage to a 2768 Alloy armored Grineer would deal 529 damage.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Darzk