I Don't Understand This Weapon Balance (Or 'art Direction'-- Somewhat Related)

[waynexx]

I don't mind a little self-handicapping for variety, but I'm not into outright gimping myself. I want to be able to do the same content with a wide roster of weapons..

 

Varied strength between weapons, especially taking into consideration utility or ease of use, is perfectly fine.. but I'm halving my DPS from [WEAPON] Prime or Soma to use my new, beautiful Attica, Sybaris and whatever else. Furthermore I'd need ~4*Forma and a Catalyst for these weapons-- a hefty investment despite the 'downgrade'.

 

I've been at 'endgame' for like 2 years, and the majority of weapons released are a downgrade. I'd rather them be a side-grade (for the most part). Additionally, new players can acquire Prime weapons fairly easily.. Never to truly upgrade again, in a game of progression.

 

[The secondary weapons suffer the same fate, but have a much healthier variety I find.]

 

Which leads to my second issue: Prime weapons out perform nearly everything by a massive margin.. and they look stupid (dat opinion doe). Warframe is about looking DOPE, but I just look like a dope running around with TACKY gold trim on my gear. My colour scheme is forced into including gold if I want to roll with these? WHY!?

 

Some of these decisions seem overly strange to me, so I'm giving benefit of the doubt and assume that I simply don't get it. Teach me

 

EDIT: Honestly, I almost never use Prime anything because I hate that gold. Think about how limited my TRYHARD roster of primaries are..

Edited August 3, 2014 by emuscles

[Rikage]

Prime weapons out perform nearly everything by a massive margin.. and they look stupid (dat opinion doe).

Well, that was by community request. I remember back when frost prime + a few weapons came out, tons of thread appeared requesting buffs for primes (especially for reaper prime - was worse than Hate), claiming that they should be superior stuff and all. But, unlike what you said, even primes can get replaced... Just think of what ppl used before boltor prime came out.

[YourLocustBuddy]

I think a large portion of there not being any weapons that can compete with stuff like Soma is because DE keeps churning out weapons for the new players. Usually if a weapon is powerful, it's a higher mastery rank. Currently there's nothing beyond rank 8.

 

Next thing is that simply put not all weapons can be powerful, I love Dera, use to be the only thing I use, but it simply can't compete with Soma, Phage, Amprex, etc., so I don't really use it anymore, even though I'd like to.

 

As for the visuals... Yeah I can agree, I don't like the gold, but I doubt DE will ever add customization to those parts considering it would mean having to go back to all those guns/frames and probably having to change some textures or something like that.

 

The gap in power between primes and other weapons makes a bit of sense though, you have to work your butt off to get prime weapons so it makes sense for them to be more powerful. 

 

Honestly I think the whole problem would be solved if DE just added some more higher-end weapons for beyond rank 8, it's not like people below that will run out of things to work towards any time soon. Or if DE added some way to up the stats on a weapon, something like a forma except instead of getting a new polarity up a stat on a weapon by a few points, doubt that'll ever happen though.

[Aver]

i just wish we had a proper tier of weapons,  where a group of weapons while the best, require high mastery rank, and than the rest are tiered between these and the mk1 weapons. atm there arent enough weapons at the top, there needs to be variety.

[waynexx]

I think a large portion of there not being any weapons that can compete with stuff like Soma is because DE keeps churning out weapons for the new players. Usually if a weapon is powerful, it's a higher mastery rank. Currently there's nothing beyond rank 8.

 

Next thing is that simply put not all weapons can be powerful, I love Dera, use to be the only thing I use, but it simply can't compete with Soma, Phage, Amprex, etc., so I don't really use it anymore, even though I'd like to.

 

As for the visuals... Yeah I can agree, I don't like the gold, but I doubt DE will ever add customization to those parts considering it would mean having to go back to all those guns/frames and probably having to change some textures or something like that.

 

The gap in power between primes and other weapons makes a bit of sense though, you have to work your butt off to get prime weapons so it makes sense for them to be more powerful. 

 

Honestly I think the whole problem would be solved if DE just added some more higher-end weapons for beyond rank 8, it's not like people below that will run out of things to work towards any time soon. Or if DE added some way to up the stats on a weapon, something like a forma except instead of getting a new polarity up a stat on a weapon by a few points, doubt that'll ever happen though.

 

Prime weapons are also tradable.. So I wouldn't tie acquisition of these too strongly to balance. Also, the gold could be added to either of the TINT groups.

 

Maybe they could have a transparent tier system; currently, there's no easy to discern how a weapon should be balanced-- I'm even under the impression they don't even have one.

 

I mean, I understand they want more selection for the newer players.. That's how they getcha, but we do all end up in the same sort of 'endgame', using the same weapons or paying the price (literally and figuratively).

[waynexx]

i just wish we had a proper tier of weapons,  where a group of weapons while the best, require high mastery rank, and than the rest are tiered between these and the mk1 weapons. atm there arent enough weapons at the top, there needs to be variety.

 

You beat me to it!

[Shry0b]

I'm with you, I don't like Prime Weapons, nor Primed Warframes. It's a bit, uh, weird, holding a weapon decorated of gold, shining, against a costant flow of blood, explosions, scars. Curse it, you're someone who kills, sabotage, and you push towards your objective with a decorative weapon?

And yeah, it seems "Unfair" That, instead of choosing a Soma or a primed weapon, you choose a different weapon that you like (Example: Sybaris, Attica that I too have, and they're both beautiful) And you're literally forced to Forma it 4, 5 times, and still, the output is not on the same tier as other few weapons (Again, Soma, Primes... Etc...). As you said, they're indeed made for low-mid game players (Like me), but they're somehow wasted: you got a (Kind of) Wide range of weapons in mid-game, that you'd love to use on endgame too. Instead, only 3 / 4 weapons are capable of doing their job on endgame. It's totally umbalanced. I'm not saying that a Burston should be able to oneshot a 70+ Napalm, but they shouldn't release so many weapons, beautiful weapons, unreliable when you're at the end of the systems, and leaving blank spaces after Mastery Rank 8. They should rework tiers, drag and drop some of the weapons we know on higher tiers; making them capable of doing their proper job on mid+ game.

 

Ok I wrote a lot of nonsense probably, but please, don't hurt my feelings.

[waynexx]

I'm with you, I don't like Prime Weapons, nor Primed Warframes. It's a bit, uh, weird, holding a weapon decorated of gold, shining, against a costant flow of blood, explosions, scars. Curse it, you're someone who kills, sabotage, and you push towards your objective with a decorative weapon?

And yeah, it seems "Unfair" That, instead of choosing a Soma or a primed weapon, you choose a different weapon that you like (Example: Sybaris, Attica that I too have, and they're both beautiful) And you're literally forced to Forma it 4, 5 times, and still, the output is not on the same tier as other few weapons (Again, Soma, Primes... Etc...). As you said, they're indeed made for low-mid game players (Like me), but they're somehow wasted: you got a (Kind of) Wide range of weapons in mid-game, that you'd love to use on endgame too. Instead, only 3 / 4 weapons are capable of doing their job on endgame. It's totally umbalanced. I'm not saying that a Burston should be able to oneshot a 70+ Napalm, but they shouldn't release so many weapons, beautiful weapons, unreliable when you're at the end of the systems, and leaving blank spaces after Mastery Rank 8. They should rework tiers, drag and drop some of the weapons we know on higher tiers; making them capable of doing their proper job on mid+ game.

 

Ok I wrote a lot of nonsense probably, but please, don't hurt my feelings.

 

Not nonsense at all. You're essentially walking through my point, with better writing skills to boot.

[H3RRD0KT0R]

You know what would be awesome, if Mastery Rank (along with crafting costs/acquisition) really worked to define clear tiers of weapons, then people would know who is who in the weapons, and be able to make sensate comparisons between them, also if the weapons were spread accordingly through all MRs, including a rearrangement beyond MR8, that would reduce the endless demand for nerf and buff, like "Spectra is a MR1 and can be bought in the market for credits? Ok no need to buff it, Soma is MR9 and in the tenno lab? OK let it be powerful."

 

At least in my point of view that's the Mastery rank purpose, but in its current state, it is but a mess full of discrepancies. Which MR is Boltor prime?

[Shry0b]

2... You just need to reach Mastery Rank 2 and you've one of the most used and renown weapons in the game. More efficient than weapons with a higher Mastery. Very umbalanced.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Shry0b

[H3RRD0KT0R]

2... You just need to reach Mastery Rank 2 and you've one of the most used and renown weapons in the game. More efficient than weapons with a higher Mastery. Very umbalanced.

 

So OP is saying he would like to be able to use mastery ranks 4 (Attica) and 5 (Sybaris) weapons in endgame instead of a mastery rank 2 (Boltor P)? That shows how balanced the mastery rank system is.

 

I would go further, I would like to be able to use my MR8 Supra without needing to apply a couple of formas so it gets to feel almost as powerful as soma or boltor p.

[Davoodoo]

Proper tiering would be nice i asked for it few times already.

 

Another thing though is using mastery ranks to lock it. Thats a bad idea.

Unless you heavily adjust how mastery rank works or scrap this whole system i cant imagine anyone being happy about needing to rank 120 weapons just to get to that endgame pearl.

 

Also theres not enough weapons in some categories to make proper tiers even excluding niche weapons like miter or ignis.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Hayzemet]

Sybaris is strong lol

[Pisirk]

There are huge differences in DPS on what we have right now, maybe you don't have the right mods?

 

edit: nvm, that's not what this is about. Yay for properly tiered weapons.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Pisirk

[Muffle]

"Which leads to my second issue: Prime weapons out perform nearly everything by a massive margin.. and they look stupid (dat opinion doe). Warframe is about looking DOPE, but I just look like a dope running around with TACKY gold trim on my gear. My colour scheme is forced into including gold if I want to roll with these? WHY!?"

 

Actually, most research weapons, when fully maxed, will outperform the prime weapons. Even some market weapons will. (Primaries: Soma, Amprex, Synapse, Ogris, Penta) (Secondaries: Angstrum, Marelok, Stug), (Melees: Scoliac/Amphis (for speed), Dual Ichor (for damage per second), Jat kittag/Dragon Nikana (for single damaging hits outside of stance mode). And the Brakk outperforms every other secondary. Prime is only top tier for frames, but only barely so, such that you can totally still play with your regular frames. In fact, the strongest frames aren't primes (Nova, Vauban, I'm looking at you)...

Edited August 3, 2014 by Blastcut

[NuLycan]

Honestly, the weapons are so insanely unbalanced that it's not just prime weapons. Look at some of the clan research weapons *cough cough* Ogris *cough cough*. The Ogris is a practically infinite ammo rocket lawnchair that does insane damage, the boltor prime is possible the best automatic rifle in the game and it's mastery rank 2, and the embolist is.... fairly lackluster IMO and it's mastery rank is 8 plus requiring research.

 

I've said it in another post somewhere, balance is dead.

[waynexx]

Sybaris is strong lol

 

I believe you're right. You get the idea though

 

"Which leads to my second issue: Prime weapons out perform nearly everything by a massive margin.. and they look stupid (dat opinion doe). Warframe is about looking DOPE, but I just look like a dope running around with TACKY gold trim on my gear. My colour scheme is forced into including gold if I want to roll with these? WHY!?"

 

Actually, most research weapons, when fully maxed, will outperform the prime weapons. Even some market weapons will. (Primaries: Soma, Amprex, Synapse, Ogris, Penta) (Secondaries: Angstrum, Marelok, Stug), (Melees: Scoliac/Amphis (for speed), Dual Ichor (for damage per second), Jat kittag/Dragon Nikana (for single damaging hits outside of stance mode). And the Brakk outperforms every other secondary. Prime is only top tier for frames, but only barely so, such that you can totally still play with your regular frames. In fact, the strongest frames aren't primes (Nova, Vauban, I'm looking at you)...

 

I understand this, and I wouldn't be as concerned if it weren't for the Boltor Prime, which outperforms* all of those, and whether or not the trend will continue. They're supposed to be sought after, and they look dumb. The primary weapons you listed are quite old, and that list hasn't really been expanding whereas the Primes are a continuous theme.

 

Honestly, this is all still besides the point-- I've got a stack of weapons gathering dust and they've been releasing more to be added to that pile. I don't think it needs to work like that.

Edited August 3, 2014 by emuscles

[TheWargiCorgi]

 

I've been at 'endgame' for like 2 years, and the majority of weapons released are a downgrade. I'd rather them be a side-grade (for the most part). Additionally, new players can acquire Prime weapons fairly easily.. Never to truly upgrade again, in a game of progression.

So you've been at End Game for 2 years despite the game not even being out that long? Wow. Are you a wizard or something?

Edited August 3, 2014 by NitroTrigger137

[Xylia]

I've been at 'endgame' for like 2 years,

 

Warframe has been out 2 Years now? Here I coulda sworn that we are barely 1.5y since the Beta began.

[TheWargiCorgi]

 

Some of these decisions seem overly strange to me, so I'm giving benefit of the doubt and assume that I simply don't get it. Teach me

 

EDIT: Honestly, I almost never use Prime anything because I hate that gold. Think about how limited my TRYHARD roster of primaries are..

Ummm... Research weapons?

[TheWargiCorgi]

Warframe has been out 2 Years now? Here I coulda sworn that we are barely 1.5y since the Beta began.

No it hasn't gotten to 2 years yet, this guy has gone crazy.

[TheWargiCorgi]

I don't mind a little self-handicapping for variety, but I'm not into outright gimping myself. I want to be able to do the same content with a wide roster of weapons..

Ok, firstly stop using the Mk.1 Braton.

[Cannamancer]

Prime Weps will always be here and be better, with more to come. So too bad lol.

[TheWargiCorgi]

 

Which leads to my second issue: Prime weapons out perform nearly everything by a massive margin.. and they look stupid (dat opinion doe). Warframe is about looking DOPE, but I just look like a dope running around with TACKY gold trim on my gear. My colour scheme is forced into including gold if I want to roll with these? WHY!?

So... If I am understanding this properly, you are not aware of Research Weapons and that only a few Primes "out perform everything by a massive margin". And those Primes are few and far between. All primes are upgrades to their non Prime parts, but not ALL of them are as powerful as you make them seem. The only Primes that fit into what you are describing are the Boar, Boltor, Bo, Paris, Dakra, Orthos and Glaive. All the others are upgrades to their non-Prime cousins, but not to their entire weapon type roster.

[TheWargiCorgi]

So, if you've been keeping up with me this far, you seem to lack an understanding of time, the premise of tiered weapons in RPG's, the other End-Game roster locked away in Clan Research and a proper understanding of the ACTUAL comparative strength of Prime and Non-Prime weapons. In summery, this post is a waste of everyone's time reading it.