Difficulty In Warframe? Realy?

[Innocent_Flower]

So the enemy does more damage, so you get more health, so the enemy gets more health, so you get more damage. Or maybe it's the other way round and the enemy are getting more health and damage to deal with tenno damage and health (T4) and were you to not play the right level with your gear, it'd either be too easy or too hard. 

 

Now, If you ask the sane individual, the casual players or the hardcore, if that's a fun game mechanic; you'l probably get a sound "no" 

 

and I'm sure a lot of you will tell players to simply not use the best weapons available and not use the good mods in order to have fun playing warframe... yeah, the game simply doesn't encourage that kind of playstyle. You can nerf the gun if you want, but if you're going to play a higher level game with it, you're going to have to bother changing the loadout again and again. 

 

 

 

Simple solution: Get rid of, or vastly reduce, level scaling. Then balance weapons, frames and mods accordingly. 

 

"But wait" they cry: "how could that make difficulty better, other than not making it stupidly hard or stupidly easy, which in itself would be a vast improvement? "

 

Add not just new enemies according to the level you're playing at. But also Give present enemies new/better abilities as the levels are harder. 

Lancers/Elite lancers having grenades, then as levels get higher they have faster reload speeds, more grenades, better grenade aim, more chance to have better weapons, cluster grenades. 

 

Butchers that get combos, the ability to try and avoid the crosshair/dodge weapons. Parkour and so on. Scorpions and powerfists are upgrades with more unique abilities. Heavy grineer melee come in at high levels. 

 

Heavy grineer don't initialy have the ground shock wave that they use. they earn that, and they earn better versions of it that are more powerful and send the tenno further away (we're assuming the initial shock wave is nerfed to be more dodgable)

 

Seekers deploy more and more seeker mines as their levels raise. Or, when they get past a certain point they gain a seeker ability like +2 mines deployed, 50% more mine speed, 50% faster mine detonation, additional element damage, flying mines, invisible mines.

 

Scorches can instead be cold,toxin or electricity variations when passed a certain level, or even more deadly Corrosive,magnetic, blast etc versions when at high level. 

 

Hellions branch out into different types of helion at high level. They might have different weapons, or different tactics, or emulate other grineer (Hellion seeker, hellion bombardier, hellion melee) 

 

Medium and high levels promise the spawning of minibosses and assassins. Think hyenas, jackals,raptors,  Grineer captains, Grineer assassins. Large grineer, infested hunters , Large infested.  

Edited August 4, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[Tr1ples1xer]

I like having superpowerful weapons, its the whole point of me playing this game this long.

 

I can dish out MAX CARNAGE everywhere I go.

 

In fact I have never seen anyone complain of having a ''OP'' weapon other than this forum, il will never understand this. 

 

IMO I always want more power rather than less, I f I put 6 formas in a weapon yes I want it to kill very fast. 

 

I just don't get why some want to suffer through the game.

 

DIFFICULTY SLIDER NOW PLS

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I like having superpowerful weapons, its the whole point of me playing this game this long.

 

I can dish out MAX CARNAGE everywhere I go.

 

In fact I have never seen anyone complain of having a ''OP'' weapon other than this forum, il will never understand this. 

 

IMO I always want more power rather than less, I f I put 6 formas in a weapon yes I want it to kill very fast. 

 

I just don't get why some want to suffer through the game.

 

DIFFICULTY SLIDER NOW PLS

People complain about games being made more and more casual (i.e. enemies being pushovers and players being OP) in a lot of places that gamers have discussions.

[Metalarcher]

I like having superpowerful weapons, its the whole point of me playing this game this long.

 

I can dish out MAX CARNAGE everywhere I go.

 

In fact I have never seen anyone complain of having a ''OP'' weapon other than this forum, il will never understand this. 

 

IMO I always want more power rather than less, I f I put 6 formas in a weapon yes I want it to kill very fast. 

 

I just don't get why some want to suffer through the game.

 

DIFFICULTY SLIDER NOW PLS

 

Dunno how your weapon feels "powerful" if everything in the game just nukes enemies anyway.  I'd imagine that would make you feel less powerful, like the game is doing all the work, as it does with me.

 

People complain about weapons being overpowered because it makes the game too easy.  Consider this:  if a game had a button you press on the first level, and if you do that you immediately win, would that be boring, even in a PvE game?  Of course.  The only difference between that and what Warframe has is spectacle, which has a place in video games, but in challenging and engaging ones it should purely be complementary to the core gameplay.

 

People don't want to suffer through the game; they simply want to be challenged so they are forced to improve, and enjoy the gameplay more by gaining a greater understanding of it.

[Cannamancer]

Players are OP caused they earned it. All the lower levels can grow up and learn how to play lol.

[Vitras]

A couple of months ago I took a break and picked up the Mass Effect trilogy. The enemy progression is exactly what I was was like in this game, especially from the third game. New enemies were introduced as you progressed in the game. And also, the enemies health and damage only gradually increased. Their use in abilities increased to, so at first you could get used to them and develop tactics then applying them as the game became more difficult.

 

In this game there is no progression other than "more, more, more" and only in the sense of damage/health. At about level 15-20 all enemies are introduced by then. To me, that's too fast. It just doesn't have structure to me. The only difference between a level 20 mission and level 50 mission are the health bars and the damage numbers.

 

Dunno how your weapon feels "powerful" if everything in the game just nukes enemies anyway.  I'd imagine that would make you feel less powerful, like the game is doing all the work, as it does with me.

 

People complain about weapons being overpowered because it makes the game too easy.  Consider this:  if a game had a button you press on the first level, and if you do that you immediately win, would that be boring, even in a PvE game?  Of course.  The only difference between that and what Warframe has is spectacle, which has a place in video games, but in challenging and engaging ones it should purely be complementary to the core gameplay.

 

People don't want to suffer through the game; they simply want to be challenged so they are forced to improve, and enjoy the gameplay more by gaining a greater understanding of it.

I've caught myself feeling the same way. When I had played Torchlight 2, which has the same kind of difficulty problem as this game, I reached a point about halfway where I couldn't progress without using console cheats. I had to use god mode and I just lost all interest in the game.

It's almost like the people who want to blow everything away are more in it for bragging rights/cosmetics than to actually play the game.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Vitras

[VanFanel1980mx]

So the enemy does more damage, so you get more health, so the enemy gets more health, so you get more damage. Or maybe it's the other way round and the enemy are getting more health and damage to deal with tenno damage and health (T4) 

 

Now, If you ask the sane individual, the casual players or the hardcore, if that's a fun game mechanic; you'l probably get a sound "no" 

 

and I'm sure a lot of you will tell players to simply not use the best weapons available and not use the good mods in order to have fun playing warframe... yeah, the game simply doesn't encourage that kind of playstyle. You can nerf the gun if you want, but if you're going to play a higher level game with it, you're going to have to bother changing the loadout again and again. 

 

 

 

Simple solution: Get rid of, or vastly reduce, level scaling. Then balance weapons, frames and mods accordingly. 

 

"But wait" they cry: "how could that make difficulty better, other than not making it stupidly hard or stupidly easy, which in itself would be a vast improvement? "

 

Add not just new enemies according to the level you're playing at. But also Give present enemies new/better abilities as the levels are harder. 

Lancers/Elite lancers having grenades, then as levels get higher they have faster reload speeds, more grenades, better grenade aim, more chance to have better weapons, cluster grenades. 

 

Butchers that get combos, the ability to try and avoid the crosshair/dodge weapons. Parkour and so on. Scorpions and powerfists are upgrades with more unique abilities. Heavy grineer melee come in at high levels. 

 

Heavy grineer don't initialy have the ground shock wave that they use. they earn that, and they earn better versions of it that are more powerful and send the tenno further away (we're assuming the initial shock wave is nerfed to be more dodgable)

 

Seekers deploy more and more seeker mines as their levels raise. Or, when they get past a certain point they gain a seeker ability like +2 mines deployed, 50% more mine speed, 50% faster mine detonation, additional element damage, flying mines, invisible mines.

 

Scorches can instead be cold,toxin or electricity variations when passed a certain level, or even more deadly Corrosive,magnetic, blast etc versions when at high level. 

 

Hellions branch out into different types of helion at high level. They might have different weapons, or different tactics, or emulate other grineer (Hellion seeker, hellion bombardier, hellion melee) 

 

Medium and high levels promise the spawning of minibosses and assassins. Think hyenas, jackals,raptors,  Grineer captains, Grineer assassins. Large grineer, infested hunters , Large infested.  

They will say is too much work, better ruin all the fun like they did with Lephantis, he was one of the only two interesting bosses around with something resembling variety and strategy, now he is just another bullet sponge.

[Davoodoo]

1)I like having superpowerful weapons, its the whole point of me playing this game this long.

 

I can dish out MAX CARNAGE everywhere I go.

 

2)In fact I have never seen anyone complain of having a ''OP'' weapon other than this forum, il will never understand this. 

 

3)IMO I always want more power rather than less, I f I put 6 formas in a weapon yes I want it to kill very fast. 

 

4)I just don't get why some want to suffer through the game.

 

5)DIFFICULTY SLIDER NOW PLS

1)Thats actually basic point of using cheats in games, to be superpowerful, immortal and having ability to slaughter everything without any consequences

 

2)Other games, even pay2win actually take their time and balance stuff, pay2win is still more powerful than free but in their respective "tiers" they are pretty balanced. Really most of pay2win games actually work to make challenge impossible for free player after some time to force him into buying premium and even then balance their games around having this op stuff so players will still get proper challenge.

As far as i know warframe is only so unbalanced game which had some popularity thats why its only forum where you can see that stuff.

 

3)everyone wants that, even op, but that power should also be administered in proper dosages so it wont get out of control and wont ruin whole challenge. 1000000>1 but also 2>1.

 

4)quite opposite, many of us suffer by having to play same mission over and over again and doing it like zombie, without any thought put to it, cause game doesnt require you to do anything besides putting mods into gear to win.

 

5)we already have one in game, its called enemy levels, from mercury to t4 voids difficulty increases, but challenge is still nonexistent due to how much power we possess.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Phatose]

Not interested in this at all.

 

If I want to play a pure action game, I'll go play a pure action game.  Scaling is important, and should remain.  A high level player with a good gun should absolutely faceroll low and mid-level content.  Similarly, a low level player with low level equipment should get their asses handed to them in high level missions, no matter how good their twitch skills are.  Cutting the scaling down so a high level player isn't facerolling end game content would be nice, but removing it entirely would alter warframe fundamentally, and I like how it is now.

[Innocent_Flower]

I like having superpowerful weapons, its the whole point of me playing this game this long.

 

I can dish out MAX CARNAGE everywhere I go.

 

In fact I have never seen anyone complain of having a ''OP'' weapon other than this forum, il will never understand this. 

 

IMO I always want more power rather than less, I f I put 6 formas in a weapon yes I want it to kill very fast. 

 

I just don't get why some want to suffer through the game.

 

DIFFICULTY SLIDER NOW PLS

I have superpowerful weapons. and superpowerful frames with lots of health

 

"Max carnage" is repetitious. 

[DSpite]

I have superpowerful weapons. and superpowerful frames with lots of health

 

"Max carnage" is repetitious. 

 

So go play ANOTHER game, and stop complaining that you are getting bored at wave FIFTY in defence.

 

This game is plenty difficult when you start out, and stays difficult for most of the "normal" content. Of course it will get easier once you have multiple frames, are farming The Void and bosses, have tons of mods to cover every situation, and Catalysts, Reactors and multiple Forma in everything.

 

"End level content" should center on missions based around our level 30 frames AND the guns AND the abilities we can make at that level - I repeat, MISSIONS, not "infinite wave" content rubbish - that only exists as a filler until we get better things to do, same as Nightmare, having "random" mutators, where I see people quitting when they get "no shields", even though getting killed means nothing. They don't want even a semblance of challenge, they want a guarantee of getting something every time, which actually should NOT happen.

 

If you are doing "max carnage" and it's boring, I'd like to remind you that you are doing it to YOURSELF, as no one is either forcing you to play this game, or to take your most powerful gear and go in missions with it. Any comment regarding this idiotic concept can be summed up in one line:

 

"If you don't find it fun, and can't extract your own fun anymore, then STOP PLAYING".

 

Coming here and DEMANDING reworks, like you in particular keep doing multiple times per day, is adding nothing to this game.

 

Any mission we do against things that are level 30-40 should be hard as hell, ie, the scaling should ALREADY have kicked in at that stage to a level were mission success become a 50/50 scenario, all DE would have to do is actually stop caring about possible complaints of "they are too hard" and release the monstrosities I'm sure they have already come up with, but won't release as not to get the massive stupid backlash from people that can't press buttons to save themselves.

 

You know why Warframe is easy? Because you all wanted it that way. Have a look in the forums what happens everytime DE steps it up a notch ... ?

 

... non stop complaining.

Edited August 4, 2014 by DSpite

[Kage2015]

i think,we ned a ENDGAME Mission for Hard Mission,We ned new gametype,We ned new enemy,We ned enemy with danger skill(like 1 hit kill),keep playing void,killing weak boss at every planet,pretty bored now... 

[(NSW)LilVanu]

Hek, I've made a new account just to have fun with difficult content.

I don't even care that I have pretty much every frame unlocked and max ranked but I worked for that.

[Davoodoo]

i think,we ned a ENDGAME Mission for Hard Mission,We ned new gametype,We ned new enemy,We ned enemy with danger skill(like 1 hit kill),keep playing void,killing weak boss at every planet,pretty bored now... 

You realise that boss oneshotting everything and having 5bilions hp wouldnt be hard enough for organised group and would still be soloable.

 

Truth is that with current mechanics you cant have any real challenge and difficulty can be only artificial, putting high dmg on high hp on high number of enemies without changing any mechanics in enemies and due to that even interesting enemies become mostly unfair.

 

Best example is scorpions pulling you in, oldschool cc, nothing bad about it but when you consider that any cc will either have no effect on you cause enemy scaling havent kicked in yet or will mean that youre instantly dead cause any enemy shot will kill you, it becomes @(*()$ broken.

 

Similiar mechanic in payday 2, tasers will shot you and stun you for some time, you can still shoot them while being stunned but it becomes harder(doesnt happen in warframe), your teammates can help you(doesnt happen in warframe) and enemies lose interest in partly harmless player if they have other targets in sight(doesnt happen in warframe), but it also punishes you and your team if you dont get free cause at the end of stun duration you will get instantly killed, meaning that sticking together and covering your backs is important just like coop game should be(doesnt happen in warframe)

 

This game needs major reworks, scaling 2.0, enemies 2.0, balance 1.0, tiering 1.0, mastery ranks 2.0, aggro 2.0, coop 1.0 and i mean real rework addresing problems and fixing them not adding 1 or 2 extra mechanics and adding higher number like they did with dmg2.0 and melee2.0

[Liminal]

Simple solution: Get rid of, or vastly reduce, level scaling. Then balance weapons, frames and mods accordingly.

Yes. Yes yes yes.

All of my goddamn yes.

 

The mind-boggingly huge scaling in WF is the root of all difficulty/balance problems.

 

Maybe not remove scaling entirely, but kick it hard in the teeth. Real hard.

Edited August 4, 2014 by The_Doc

[ZizWing]

Lancers/Elite lancers having grenades, then as levels get higher they have faster reload speeds, more grenades, better grenade aim, more chance to have better weapons, cluster grenades. 

 

Ever been hit by level 40+ crewman nades? I don't remember the exact level (could have been 50+ idk) somewhere in late survival anyway. The point is: while this seems fun and all their damage scales op so rediculously high later on they instan-nade you. I was even using Rhino Prime at that time with maxed Redirection, Vitality and Vigor. 1 grenade got me down to less than 300 HP without even standing directly ontop of it. And that was with ironskin. Compared to the DPS their guns put out at that point this was just insane. So unless you want to redo the entire damage scalin again I don't think this would work.

[creeperZface]

Yes,do it

[Gryffinhart]

Stacking on numbers NEVER fixes balance issues. EVER.

It really bothers me off because it's the laziest sodding way to address balance issues. Which it doesn't. And it does nothing in the way of  gaining respect or confidence for the developers who are guilty of this.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Gryffinhart

[Jamescell]

Right idea but wrong approach. 

[Innocent_Flower]

Right idea but wrong approach. 

What's the idea and what's the approach? 

[Chupacabra]

+1 OP

 

If you removed the scaling from everywhere in this game, you'd realize the only difference between planets with the same faction is either a different tile-set, or a slightly different distribution of mobs (the usually repeats itself).

 

"Progression" from planet to planet is literally just another grindwall or timesink (i.e. not fun).

 

I never have to shoot anythings armor off, I never have to shoot somethings legs to make it stagger, hell with the right frame combinations I never have to shoot my gun. 

 

Take the grineer butchers for example, they run at 3mph lunging at you like snails, they become completely worthless and pointless by just moving a tad to any other direction. Seriously? 

 

And then after a certain level everything just one shots you, virtually everything, and the only thing you can do is either scale up further or die.

 

The point is we never solve problems with our guns or in the mission, all the decisions that matter happen in the arsenal, were we just stack everything. And that's not engaging at all assuming you understand math.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Chupacabra

[grillv20]

So go play ANOTHER game, and stop complaining that you are getting bored at wave FIFTY in defence.

 

This game is plenty difficult when you start out, and stays difficult for most of the "normal" content. Of course it will get easier once you have multiple frames, are farming The Void and bosses, have tons of mods to cover every situation, and Catalysts, Reactors and multiple Forma in everything.

 

"End level content" should center on missions based around our level 30 frames AND the guns AND the abilities we can make at that level - I repeat, MISSIONS, not "infinite wave" content rubbish - that only exists as a filler until we get better things to do, same as Nightmare, having "random" mutators, where I see people quitting when they get "no shields", even though getting killed means nothing. They don't want even a semblance of challenge, they want a guarantee of getting something every time, which actually should NOT happen.

 

If you are doing "max carnage" and it's boring, I'd like to remind you that you are doing it to YOURSELF, as no one is either forcing you to play this game, or to take your most powerful gear and go in missions with it. Any comment regarding this idiotic concept can be summed up in one line:

 

"If you don't find it fun, and can't extract your own fun anymore, then STOP PLAYING".

 

Coming here and DEMANDING reworks, like you in particular keep doing multiple times per day, is adding nothing to this game.

 

Any mission we do against things that are level 30-40 should be hard as hell, ie, the scaling should ALREADY have kicked in at that stage to a level were mission success become a 50/50 scenario, all DE would have to do is actually stop caring about possible complaints of "they are too hard" and release the monstrosities I'm sure they have already come up with, but won't release as not to get the massive stupid backlash from people that can't press buttons to save themselves.

 

You know why Warframe is easy? Because you all wanted it that way. Have a look in the forums what happens everytime DE steps it up a notch ... ?

 

... non stop complaining.

 

Players like myself HAVE ACTUALLY stopped playing because it is boring and there is no more "challenge" in getting anything. The only challenge I guess you could say that there is is actually having the patience to sit down and mindlessly grind for more useless crap. Nobody is forcing anybody to play the game but they sure aren't encouraging their long time players to play more either. I'm not going to be super critical about this game anymore since I have found other things to occupy my time but I really do wish there was a challenge that offered something that felt rewarding. Mastery rank was fun to grind at a time because it was sort of prestigious feeling to have that cute number next to your name but now its like...why? 

 

I know that they're going to be putting the Focus system into the game but I don't see how this is going to really bring about any sort of challenge back into the game. Sure you get something out of leveling guns but whats the point when its just doing to detract from whatever little challenge there is in the game? I might be compelled to log in and actually do some long sessions of defense or survival if the rewards kept up with the effort and time you have to sit around and do the same thing for 30mins-hour. Though since update 14 was released I had issues even keeping my game from crashing after too long. Not sure if its fixed but whatever, I can't find the motivation to log i anyways.

 

All I know is that I want the game to be fun. The only reason I stick around on the forums is because I respect the team working on the game and its one of the few games out there where I know for a fact that the team actually cares about the game that they're working on. That being said, the game is in dire-straits with its lack of endgame content and any sort of anything keeping players from leaving the game once they've managed to get to the top of their game. If you need proof just go and look at the small margin in which enemies actually level outside of defense and survival missions. Its very apparent by anybody that plays the game that there just simply isn't enough of a challenge once you reach the apex of your game. There is quite literally NO REASON TO DO HIGH LEVEL DEFENSE OR SURVIVAL OUTSIDE OF GETTING AFFINITY WHICH DOES NOT SCALE BASED ON ENEMY LEVEL. The only situation where you would be going past the 20 minute mark(the end of the drop table cycle for that loot table for prime items) would be to have another shot at whatever prime item you needed from that key. Now if you have multiples of that key then you should pretty much be leaving @ the 20 minute mark assuming everybody has what they needed from the key already.

 

 

Now, to touch on what you said a little bit more. Nobody should ever feel the need to gimp themselves purposely to bring challenge to whatever they're doing. You're NOT going to sit there and tell me that I should purposely gear myself like an idiot and bring people down around me when I have grinded for hours to get to where I am in game. I could try playing warframe with my feet or rolling my face across my keyboard too but that wont make me feel like less of a loser in denial about how I have to generate my own difficulty to bring myself fun. I would rather go afk and pet my cats.

Edited August 4, 2014 by grillv20

[gell]

In short: You're right that the game needs enemies who become more difficult not because they increase the numbers but because they become better equipped to deal with you. As a result, as a player, you become more tactical and use your OP weapons to compensate, which is a better mechanic than just increasing your numbers too.

 

I'm not saying the game must be difficult for everyone; not everyone wants this. But for those who think the game should allow you to be OP and face rolling everything all the time, this is how games die. Yeah, some folks will enjoy this until the end of time. But most people will move on eventually because with less player engagement, interest dwindles. It's a simple part of game design that takes a lot of effort to get right, but that effort is the tough part. DE has slowly looked into it.

 

The reason why this forum may be the only one to suggest difficulty or making weapons not super OP is because this forum may have the only people who actually care about this game surviving. Other forum folks will just play a game and if it dies, who cares, they'll move on; there are a lot of games. But for the longevity of the game, it needs these things, whether every player knows this or not.

[Monolake]

Don't mix-up difficulty curve with variety please.