Devstream 34 Part 1, Ui Scaling, Mods, And Quests

[DE_Adam]

Our dynamic UI duo Pablo and Dorian join us on the latest Devstream to have a chat about what’s been going on in the aftermath of Update 14.  From minor bug fixes to minor errors like players being able to completely rename the planets in the Solar System our developers have been busy refining the new UI since its launch.  If you happened to catch Devstream 34 live then you already know all about it, and probably also know about Pablo’s secret Kenny Rogers alter ego.

 

If you missed it, well, let’s just stick with the facts here.

 

To start things off Pablo and Dorian let us know they were both quite pleased with what they’ve seen in terms of our community UI mockups, as the visual aid most definitely helps pointpoint parts of the UI that need tweaking.  A few community members have asked what it takes to get into UI design/programming; and while the answer is somewhat complex building a strong portfolio, displaying creativity and showing that you can adapt to new ideas and concepts is key to getting yourself noticed.  Having some graphic design/programming experience (even if it’s outside the industry) doesn’t hurt either!

 

We stated earlier that most of the effort post-U14 has been focused on cleaning up unexpected bugs like being able to rename planets (a feature that, while fun, was completely unintentional).  With a lot of those issues cleared up at this time our next main concern are features within the diegetic UI that players are either having difficulty adjusting to or simply hinder the players experience in some way.

 

One major issue we’re in the midst of addressing is a complaint that menus in the UI are causing some motion sickness due to the constantly shifting third person perception.  Our current goal is the implement a slider that will help adjust the perspective of the UI, which should help players better format their menu to be usable in 1080p vs 720p.  Once a slider is implemented to change the size and perspective of the menu we can then include a feature to stop the ‘sway’.

 

Other features that need refinement are the elements that haven’t made a transition into the new UI; such as Clan/Friend list and the Codex.  It’s also important to note that the UI isn’t simply just a means of interacting with the game’s menus, it’s also a tremendously important part of Warframe’s networking between missions, lobbies, and various zones.  As such, we have no way of simple ‘turning off’ the new UI so that players can switch to back to the old.  It’s gone for good, folks.

 

 

One element of the game that’s gone on relatively unchanged throughout the whole UI shift are mods, and we’re happy to say that there are some changes coming that will make mods overall much easier to identify.  Outside of just being a visual update changes to mod cards are meant to slim down the amount of space a mod needs to take up on screen.  By having the art portion of the mod drop down into the primary information section we get to to save a lot of space, but more importantly we make it a lot easier to discern what kind of mod you’re working with in the first place.

 

Common, uncommon and rare mods should be easier to notice as the color coding will help immediately distinguish the difference between all three tiers; and with ranking placed just under the name all relevant information about a mod is easy to see at just a glance.  It’s our hope that this change makes it much easier to browse through all your mods, particularly for players that have grown familiar enough with mods that they only need a name to know what it does.

 

And on a final note of changes to come, I just wanted to give a friendly reminder that for the time being there is no final fourth quest in Warframe.  Our quest system is still quite basic at this time and as promised we still need to implement a increased difficulty selection for those who want to experience quests in a more challenging fashion.  We may also refine the general look of our Quest section, but that’s not quite as important as making sure some other features are addressed first.

 

That’s all for Part 1 of our Devstream 34 Overview, but be sure to check in next week when we cover a few other soon-to-be UI adjustments, what Pablo and Dorian are proud of so far, and maybe even take a look at the coveted UI white board.

[RedVoidDragon]

There's still massive scaling problems at greater than 1080p, like my 2560x1600 screen the bottom row of mods is way below where it should be and completely cut off, I have to hover the mouse over the bottom row to see what's there. I'm fairly certain you guys don't have a single monitor at your studio over 1080p because so much of it is jacked.

 

Buy a 1600p 30" monitor, and a 4k while you're at it, I'm sure that will start becoming an issue soon as well. Currently any screen involving mods is messed up to some extent at high rez, and mission completion screens don't seem to know what to do with the extra space, so they extend resources and mods below the frame and cut off the top few lines of the mission stats, I have no idea how much total damage I did on any group missions since U14 dropped because at least the top two lines are cut off.

[GTG3000]

There are scale problems at 1280x1024 even. Trying to read mod names/descriptions in Arsenal makes my eyes hurt.

 

Also, I pray to lotus someone introduces your 'dinamic art design duo' to white text with black outline. That coloured text on coloured cards looks meh.

 

(not to mention there's no need to make a bronze-coloured card)

[unknow99]

Nice,even if I'd also like overview on the incoming new content aswell (new enemies & tilesets,other quests,...)

 

Letter13 also noticed that frames turn their head too much (especially with the agile stance) & I hope you will add a progression order to the navigation UI (planets don't feel linked anymore).

[Liacu]

I'm hoping the UI designers will put more information into the mod UI. Ability mods have been too vague for the longest time and it's about time the game gave the stats (range, duration, energy cost, etc) for them so that I don't have to check the wiki anymore at least when it comes to powers.

[BloodKitten]

i think we just need better AA along with UI scale, current AA just make the game a bit blurry rather then actually smooth edges, with 19 inch wide screen i cant read news section unless im standing right next to it, and mods are also a pain to try and read.

[Krjal]

Nice summary from the stream and I like the extra clarification.

 

Bring on the shiny new mods!

[CandyDragon]

Mods look interesting.

Still disgusted with the current arsenal, foundry, and upgrade UI sway/angle.

 

I really do hope you guys make it to where the sliders completely remove the angling and warframe from view. 

Currently its far to much of a hassle to deal with, and i've yet to log in again due to it. 

Edited August 6, 2014 by Nariala

[AZAG0TH]

Alright...

 

I'm going to post again pointing out the fact that a scaling slider will not solve all the problems people are having with the menus.  I know Pablo and Dorian don't want to hear this, but the fact of the matter is that a slider may solve some of the motion sickness problems people are having - but it will make the other problems worse.  I am getting pretty frustrated at this point always typing the same things out, but I feel like I have to try, because I really enjoy this game and even though some seem to have blinders on to the issues.

 

People have multiple problems with the new UI menus.  The first, and most damaging, is the motion sickness it causes in some players.  The second is readability of the mods.  The skewed nature of the new UI menus makes text extremely difficult to read for many of us.  I am playing at 1366x768 on a 37" monitor from 3 feet away.  Guess what?  I am leaning in to read the Mod names as it is.  Am I now going to need a magnifying glass to read it's description after I scale it down further?!?

 

So..to reiterate: To alleviate the motion sickness the shaky UI is causing, I should scale the mods smaller, making them even more difficult to see - and all this so I can see a Warframe on the left side of the screen?!?  Why, oh why, do I need to see the Warframe on the left side of the screen?!?

 

The answer 'immersion' has been tossed around by some.. and you know what?  It makes no sense.  When I am on a mission in Warframe I am looking over the frame's shoulder.  I have control of it's vision.  I am facing the things it is facing.  I see what 'it sees'.  Same thing on the ship - but then: I walk up to the Mod or upgrade console and what happens?  My viewpoint is wrenched from it's normal position floating above the shoulder of my Warframe and dragged off further to the right of it.  The UI then continues to face the warframe - while I, the player, now even more aware that I am separate from the game - am forced to "Peek at his monitor" from the side.  If anything, this ruins any immersion that might have once existed.

 

And, yes, I have seen the new mods you are planning on implementing - and I will have the same issue with them as I do the current ones. I say this because after using the scale slider they will now be even smaller - and my view of them will still be skewed.  And the text will still be hard to read.  And the descriptions of them will still be hidden until I mouse over them.

 

It feels like I am banging my head against the wall here at this point.  It's been weeks, many players were clamoring for an optional flat 1st person unskewed version of the current UI that doesn't have the Warframe on the screen since U14 came out.  We just want the option.  To this date, even after all the discussions on it, and Pablo telling me that he doesn't think they will ever offer it (without an explanation as to why) in another thread I still had hope.  

 

I had hope that other Devs at DE would realize that this was an issue, and not being affected by hubris, would realize it was something that needed to happen - and soon.  It seemed that DE_Steve had heard us when he appeared at the end of the livestream, but now, after this post, I am concerned maybe he has been convinced that this will fix everything.  It won't.

 

I haven't played much since U14 came out, I want to, but I can't.  Again, the motion sickness of the mods/upgrades UI is a major factor, but it's not the only factor and making these screens smaller will solve one problem, but make the rest worse.

 

Please, just give those that need it an optional 1st person, non-skewed, non-visible-warframe version of the new menus ASAP.  

I know most won't use it, but many will (including myself) and there is really no valid reason not to do it for those that need it.

 

Edit:  I really hope this 'perspective slider' that is mentioned in the OP can be slid into 1st person at it's lowest setting.  I really do.  I did notice it, but since there was no explanation for it I felt the need to type all this out again.

Edited August 6, 2014 by AZAG0TH

[Unknown924]

The most annoying thing is that the sway and  a lot of other issues could be fixed by simply making the UI flat/ first person.

As someone who has taken a course in 3D graphics, I really wonder why a slider is needed to remove the sway.  Rather than adjust the UI size, the distance from the camera could be adjusted based on resolution so it always takes up the entire screen.  This would also solve the issue with sway.  Since you would be viewing the entire UI at all times there would be no need for it to move.

For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_projection

[JakkRandom]

Want: Flat/1st person menus.

Need: Someone to listen to us.

[Kaian-a-coel]

An important matter that was adressed by a mere two sentences in this devstream, despite being one of the biggest issues of UI14, right behind the motion sickness, lack of legibility and general clumsyness, is the GODDAMN STARCHART.

Long, constructive threads are aplenty and I don't feel like putting a list there, they're all over the UI feedback forum.

[turbinea]

I also wonder about reasons behind the slider. What range it will cover? From vomit canon to gentle burp? Those like me will turn it off/set it to lowest possible setting, those that don't mind it will let it as it is.

Edited August 6, 2014 by turbinea

[StrahlTiger]

One element of the game that’s gone on relatively unchanged throughout the whole UI shift are mods, and we’re happy to say that there are some changes coming that will make mods overall much easier to identify.  Outside of just being a visual update changes to mod cards are meant to slim down the amount of space a mod needs to take up on screen.  By having the art portion of the mod drop down into the primary information section we get to to save a lot of space, but more importantly we make it a lot easier to discern what kind of mod you’re working with in the first place.

 

Common, uncommon and rare mods should be easier to notice as the color coding will help immediately distinguish the difference between all three tiers; and with ranking placed just under the name all relevant information about a mod is easy to see at just a glance.  It’s our hope that this change makes it much easier to browse through all your mods, particularly for players that have grown familiar enough with mods that they only need a name to know what it does.

 

First, thank you for working on the sway issue. I am in the group of people that get simulation sickness and I'm unable to play without a light headache at all times because of it. I understand it will take some time, but I'm happy to hear the announcement. Both here and on the stream.

 

I need to comment on these mod changes, though. No, I'm not against change and I agree the mods need an update. There are 2 red flags I need to point out with the proposed mods, though.

 

1: Recognition by name and color(will touch on this in #2) only. I have been playing since open beta launched, and even I don't remember every single mod name and what they do, there's simply too many. We need to keep the basic info of effects at-a-glance along with the name. Before the new UI came about, it was easy to see the picture, name, and effects instantly just by looking at them while scrolling. Now, with the new mod screen, they decided to hide the basic effect for no apparent reason. I understand things like the warframe abilities aren't able to have a quick-look text, and that's fine.

 

I'll use Hornet Strike as an example. When you mouse-over hornet strike you get all the information Rarity, conclave stats, normal stats, etc. This makes sense, but showing nothing but the name and rarity when collapsed(referring to new mods) is just silly. It means people, especially new players, need to mouse-over their entire mod inventory. Isn't this whole new system supposed to better benefit the new player? What's wrong with the collapsed version of the mod just having a simple "+200% damage?" It conveys the basic effects so you can see them while scrolling. I know there are some complicated ones like Energy Channel that would probably not be able to convey simple information, but it can still be done for most other mods.

 

Please please please you've taken so much at-a-glance information away from us like our credits and platinum, please return some of it with the new mod cards!

 

2: Stop making everything color coded. I am not color blind, but I know a lot of players who are as well as many people in my family(got lucky, lol). There should be significant shape or border changes to the different rarities so they're as easy to tell apart for these people as it is for us to see the stark difference between red and green. I've been seeing a growing number of games that have colorblind options or alternatives for color-dependent systems and mechanics and I am sad to see DE not joining in on something that benefits everyone. You're making brand new mod cards. You're already creating new ones, so why not help out a part of the community that won't be able to even see your awesome new color-coded mod rarity?

[Spector3]

Want: Flat/1st person menus.

Need: Someone to listen to us.

They are trying so people like you need to wait it can't be done within a day. They do actually listen to the community but the community also has pompous schmucks who actually give ideas on how to fix. And I don't mean "make it flat and in first person" actually give them good info on how to do so. Whether its ratios or other references for the designers to use to actally help rather than being critical. FFS has everyoneforgotten how bad the game use to be with its single tileset and crap? "We arent listened to" horse crap go tell that to companies that never actually do it but people just let it happen *cough,cough* EA.

[JakkRandom]

They are trying so people like you need to wait it can't be done within a day. They do actually listen to the community but the community also has pompous schmucks who actually give ideas on how to fix. And I don't mean "make it flat and in first person" actually give them good info on how to do so. Whether its ratios or other references for the designers to use to actally help rather than being critical. FFS has everyoneforgotten how bad the game use to be with its single tileset and crap? "We arent listened to" horse crap go tell that to companies that never actually do it but people just let it happen *cough,cough* EA.

 

1 - I think it's pretty clear what flat and first person means.  They obviously know what flat and first person means since the old UI menus were like that.  It is not a hard idea to understand.  I give them more credit than you do apparenly.

 

2 - There is really no need for name-calling.

[Spector3]

I wasn't calling you the pompous schmuck it is a refernce to the people on the forums who degrate this game like trash who say "oh this game is horrible because X weapon is too OP," or "The warframe I chose is horrible and I can't change my frame now so it sucks." It is childish and kind of sad really. Yes I know they are smart enough to know what flat, first person means but you can't honestly say everyone wants this. I personally like what they are trying to do with the new looks to the UI but it needs a lot of work because of it being such an over hall on the entire UI I honestly thought it was going to be a lot larger mess then this. I just get annoyed because they do listen a lot to their player base but you can't expect everyones wishes to be answered. Right now the UI seems to be a complete split in the community as of now, but both agree this needs a lot of work done on many things. It is one thing to give a critique and ways to fix them then there is just being critical on them because there is something you may not like and many others as well may agree but it has to go for everyone within the game. Later down the line there will probably be more customization of the UI so players can be happy to change to their preference but right now that just can't happen.

[Hueminator]

I still prefer vertical rank mod bar than the proposed horizontal

[AZAG0TH]

-snip-  

...but you can't honestly say everyone wants this.

-snip-

Later down the line there will probably be more customization of the UI so players can be happy to change to their preference but right now that just can't happen.

 

None of us did say that - We're not calling for a global change to the UI perspective for everyone - just the option for a 1st person one for those that need it.  It doesn't have to be all or nothing for everyone.

I don't care if it's in the form of a slider or toggle as long as it makes the game playable for those that are having trouble with it in it's current form. 

 

So - why exactly can't that happen now?  I mean, what's to prevent them from adding this option now? (Since it seems they might[?] be based on the OP?).  I'm asking you since you seem to think there is a reason and I'd like to understand where you're coming from with the last sentence.

Edited August 6, 2014 by AZAG0TH

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

I do believe the collapsed mods have one central issue. Even if the text had to be tiny, the mod description needs to be in there.

[Spector3]

None of us did say that - We're not calling for a global change to the UI perspective for everyone - just the option for a 1st person one for those that need it.  It doesn't have to be all or nothing for everyone.

I don't care if it's in the form of a slider or toggle as long as it makes the game playable for those that are having trouble with it in it's current form. 

 

So - why exactly can't that happen now?  I mean, what's to prevent them from adding this option now?

(Since it seems they might[?] be based on the OP?).  I'm asking you since you seem to think there is a reason and I'd like to understand where you're coming from with the last sentence?

By first person you mean the screen is what it use to be where the screen sits perfectly still and scales to your computer screen right? Well this option would have to be implemented into there walls of text of coding just to may something as simple as a check bar to make you view it in first person for the screens or a slide bar as well. I agree there should be something to help the players that want first person but it seems that many players believe it to come to an immediate affect. Plus saying "us" in a statement is a very broad statement from Jakkrandom because that can mean the entire community as a whole wants someone to listen to everyone when you and I both know not everyone wants the revert. From his statement it sounded as though he wanted it not as an option but rather a complete change.

[BETAOPTICS]

I would have a suggestion. So now that Kubrows are released and many of us have obtained them. We have discovered that you can not release the Kubrows and you are more than likely to obtain several of the same type of Kubrows in your arsenal. Could you guys make it so that you would have a search engine or some kind of engine that you could use to find specific type of Kubrows from stasis because at the current moment, you have to remember each one of them by name and when you have 10 Kubrows.

It is a hard task, clunky and unconventional system. I do not mean this in the mean way. Or better yet, add a system similar to normal arsenal where the Kubrow device is than once activated, you could observe each of your Kubrow without retrieving them, look what fur pattern they have, what level they are if they are adults, what type of Kubrow they are, their loadout and the ability to customize it without retrieving them and so on.

I think it would go a long way to make the Kubrow den way more handy and more comfortable to use. Please consider implementing a similar system at some point. Although I do recognize that there is a lot of work to do and this would cram even more work there but still. Hopefully we could see this in the future?

[JakkRandom]

Plus saying "us" in a statement is a very broad statement from Jakkrandom because that can mean the entire community as a whole wants someone to listen to everyone when you and I both know not everyone wants the revert. From his statement it sounded as though he wanted it not as an option but rather a complete change.

Didn't mean I want it for everyone, just want the option.  Like people have the option for Physx or bloom, or show player names, etc.

"Us" was the people who want it, it's more than just 'me'.

[Loswaith]

... Well this option would have to be implemented into there walls of text of coding just to may something as simple as a check bar to make you view it in first person for the screens or a slide bar as well. ...

You do realise that this is in almost all games, even currently in warframe? It is called a resolution setting.

[DavidSPD]

The most annoying thing is that the sway and  a lot of other issues could be fixed by simply making the UI flat/ first person.

As someone who has taken a course in 3D graphics, I really wonder why a slider is needed to remove the sway.  Rather than adjust the UI size, the distance from the camera could be adjusted based on resolution so it always takes up the entire screen.  This would also solve the issue with sway.  Since you would be viewing the entire UI at all times there would be no need for it to move.

For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_projection

 

I don't believe the issue is "can we" as much as it is "should we".

 

I don't have motion sickness issues, and I would be willing to go out on a limb here and say that a lot other people playing probably don't either. I think it gives it a nice artistic feel, and I personally LIKE the way the current UI looks and functions.

 

Reverting it or massively changing it now would upset me (and others, I'm sure) so finding a compromise will be the thing they're aiming to do, if past updates are any indication. Giving us options would please a lot of people, so that those that DO get motion sick, or just don't like moving menus, can disable them. Meanwhile those of us that like it and aren't bothered by it can leave it as-is.

Edited August 7, 2014 by DavidSPD