Regarding Ash, Nerfs, And Balancing For Pvp

[Whytee]

Since it appears that Ash is seemingly at the top of the list when it comes to PvP balance, I wanted to take a look into why he is considered overpowered, and why any ability in warframe is considered 'OP'.

 

I have mentioned in other threads, if something needs balancing, nerfing the ability/weapon/whatever by directly reducing its effectiveness is a band-aid fix and doesn't solve the real, root cause of the issue.

 

With these types of band aid fixes, the only way you can achieve 'balance' is by making the ability incredibly underwhelming, such as the nerf to Valkyr's Hysteria. It was considered extremely OP, then the nerf came, and now the frame is barely usable.

 

This is NOT balance - it is simply shifting the ability from overpowered to underpowered.

 

So, the obvious question remains - 'how can you balance something without nerfing it?'.

 

Well, the question you should really be asking is 'Why is this ability imbalanced?'.

 

And the answer, almost in every case, is because there is no real counter to it. There is simply nothing you can do to an Invincible Valkyr. There's nothing you can do about an Ash Bladestorm. There's nothing you can do about Vauban tesla's on an objective.

 

The reason we see these things as 'OP' is because we cannot counter them. No amount of skill, or clever use of abilities will save you from Blade Storm. As soon as you get that red paint on you, you're going to die and there is nothing you can do about it. You may as well just stand still and wait for inevitable, impending death.

 

This is the real problem with 'imbalanced' abilities - we cant play around them.

 

There is no reason for reductions in damage or duration to Ash's Blade Storm, Valkyr's Hysteria, or Vaubans Tesla/Bastille/Vortex, if players are given the opportunity to avoid or disable the enemies ability altogether by using their own skills or abilities to counter the attack. These skills can (and should) be incredibly powerful when used skillfully, but when used incorrectly they would and should be ineffective against a more skillful opponent.

 

I'm not going to post a big list of suggested changes. I know DE can do this by themselves. I do hope however that this post can help to realize the error of 'balance by nerfing', and hopefully implement better, 'counterable balance' in future patches.

 

Thanks for reading!

[LustofLoki]

um, there is a way u can counter all damage from blade storm now matter how strong it is, iv had people use blade storm on me and iv negated all damage during the baility, i had hardcore parry mods on and i was able to parry all the damage from blade storm, so there are ways to counter it

[Whytee]

um, there is a way u can counter all damage from blade storm now matter how strong it is, iv had people use blade storm on me and iv negated all damage during the baility, i had hardcore parry mods on and i was able to parry all the damage from blade storm, so there are ways to counter it

 

I was meaning more 'active' counters. Being able to play around an ability using their skill as a player, rather than having to mod your entire frame differently to counter a single ability.

[Satinpuppies]

What you're trying to say is we need new gameplay mechanics instead of having the devs patch everything up and call it good with just stats and numbers. We need a combat system for pvp that actually feels rewarding and just a bit more weighty or something. Something addictive is missing.

less press this button to do this and the only way to counter it is to have the mod active before you start the match and more reactive gameplay mechanics.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Satinpuppies

[(PSN)ROUGHPIGEON]

you will never balance pvp and pve.  Balance has to be made in one and live with the other.  Wow went through this for years.  

[Whytee]

you will never balance pvp and pve.  Balance has to be made in one and live with the other.  Wow went through this for years.  

 

Not necessarily. DE have already shown us that abilities can work differently in different missions, and can work much differently against Tenno, to how it works in PvE. There is no apparent reason why both cannot be balanced at the same time.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Whytee

[Cwierz]

I think it would be marvelous to play as a warframe in dark sectors similar to stalker in that it 

A- Has the power "Dispell"

and 

B- Is immune to warframe abilities

 

That way, the marginal skill in dark sectors between parkour (which that map is pretty bad for tbh) and gun/sword combat can be actually a thing.

[(PSN)Alphapsykongaroo]

I was meaning more 'active' counters. Being able to play around an ability using their skill as a player, rather than having to mod your entire frame differently to counter a single ability.

 

also reflex guard is unbalanced as well.

[Azawarau]

Valkyr is barely useable?

 

She can run around in circles taking shots all day from enemies

 

I think you should rethink your definition of balanced here

[Cleesus]

I definitely agree with what you are saying OP and understand you point. It would be nice to see creative ways to fix the problems at its core instead of covering it up by tweaking some number.

 

Hysteria is definitely too short to be worth using now, by the time you get done with the casting animation the skill is halfway over. Would have been nice if they changed it to something like a 50% damage reduction in pvp instead.

[Whytee]

Valkyr is barely useable?

 

She can run around in circles taking shots all day from enemies

 

I think you should rethink your definition of balanced here

 

I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true. For Dark Sectors at least, Valkyr simply doesn't have the HP pool to make that high armor worthwhile, and it takes far too long to activate Vitality and Steel Fiber mods, Especially if you try to take any of her ability mods beforehand. 

 

Valkyr doesn't do anything that Trinity can do much better in Dark Sector PvP.

[Azawarau]

 

I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true. For Dark Sectors at least, Valkyr simply doesn't have the HP pool to make that high armor worthwhile, and it takes far too long to activate Vitality and Steel Fiber mods, Especially if you try to take any of her ability mods beforehand. 

 

Valkyr doesn't do anything that Trinity can do much better in Dark Sector PvP.

Now thats simply untrue

 

I use max rage,Vitality,Steel fiber, and Vigor in that order and im not the only oen that can tell you Valkyr is nearly unstoppable

 

If you want i can give you tips on how to effectively Valkyr

 

One thing is not using maxed mods to take advantage of early game leveling

[Whytee]

I use max rage,Vitality,Steel fiber, and Vigor in that order and im not the only oen that can tell you Valkyr is nearly unstoppable

 

I didn't say she was useless. And sure, once she gets all of her mods and rank 30 she is really tough to kill.

 

The problem, is getting to that point is even tougher. Especially when most frames only need 1 mod to be unlocked to be effective (Such as shuriken unlock at level 1), Valkyr needs 3 or even 4 mods to be effective, and often the game is over before she even reaches her full potential.

[Hueminator]

Stalker was able to resist our power, so Tenno should be somewhat resistant to their own powers too.

 

Force proc skill should be 75% proc.  Skill that make you temporarily invincible should make you CC-able.

 

Now you got some form of counter.

 

Ex:  Valkyr Hysteria?  Find some way to CC her by using freeze, pull, soundwake, jump kick?

Edited August 8, 2014 by Hueminator

[Azawarau]

 

I didn't say she was useless. And sure, once she gets all of her mods and rank 30 she is really tough to kill.

 

The problem, is getting to that point is even tougher. Especially when most frames only need 1 mod to be unlocked to be effective (Such as shuriken unlock at level 1), Valkyr needs 3 or even 4 mods to be effective, and often the game is over before she even reaches her full potential.

You called her unplayable

 

She has high armor to start and benefits heavily from using life strike early on to rake in levels

 

Valkyrs should play aggressively for the sake of their team

 

The best part about this is enemy teams that have tons of specters can get you 10-20 levels within the first wave and the specters just cant kill valkyr while she life strikes them

[RexSol]

I see your point and definitely agree with the idea of alternative ways to balance abilities. 

[Whytee]

You called her unplayable

 

 

now the frame is barely usable.

 

There is a difference. 

[Azawarau]

There is a difference. 

Whats barely usable about the highest defense frame in the game then?

[Whytee]

Whats barely usable about the highest defense frame in the game then?

 

I already explained in a previous post.

 

It takes her a long time (level 10-12 at the minimum) to be effective, and this is using non-maxed mods to activate faster.

 

Whereas Trinity, for example, can unlock a maxed Link and max Vitality at level 6, and be as effective as Valkyr, just much earlier.

[Azawarau]

I already explained in a previous post.

 

It takes her a long time (level 10-12 at the minimum) to be effective, and this is using non-maxed mods to activate faster.

 

Whereas Trinity, for example, can unlock a maxed Link and max Vitality at level 6, and be as effective as Valkyr, just much earlier.

And be less effective later?

 

You know valkyr can basically face tank those missions and gain tons of levels doing it?

 

Like i can literally make my team lvl 12 before the end of the first objective just by melee spamming

 

Life strike and rage make her already difficult enough to kill early on. Add vitality a few levels later and shes near immortal

 

And when that Steel fiber finally gets pegged on youre not going to go down

 

Ill post a video on how barely useable she is

 

EDIT

 

By the way are you going to totally ignore early and late game builds?

 

You dont have to use max vitality

 

Theres a strategic early game advantage to using lower ranked versions of the mods

Edited August 9, 2014 by Azawarau

[nekrojiji]

I suggested, not one but, two ways to change Blade Storm so it won't be a kill button.....

 

in here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/243533-things-that-needs-to-be-balanced-on-pvp-updated-u14/?p=3251178

 

 

[Mastikator2]

The problem with Shuriken isn't the damage of the bleed proc, plenty of weapons do tons of damage. Doing tons of damage is not over powered. What IS overpowered is the ability to spam an ability that always hits. However, nerfing damage to a balanced point would make it useless against the AI, so instead just make it never home in on Tenno. If you can aim at a Tenno with it then you deserve that kill.

[Hueminator]

My experience with Ash Shuriken is it help alot leveling up early game to out mod your opponent.  The homing feature does make it ideal to spam.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Hueminator

[Whytee]

The problem with Shuriken isn't the damage of the bleed proc, plenty of weapons do tons of damage. Doing tons of damage is not over powered. What IS overpowered is the ability to spam an ability that always hits. However, nerfing damage to a balanced point would make it useless against the AI, so instead just make it never home in on Tenno. If you can aim at a Tenno with it then you deserve that kill.

 

Exactly. Shruriken can so huge damage, thats fine, as long as it takes skill to use.

 

Being able to jump into the air (especially in the low-grav section of DS conflicts) and spam homing-Shurikens is an example of an ability being almost impossible to avoid, regardless of player skill.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Whytee