Please Remove Friendship Doors

[SquirmyBurrito]

[snip]

The rusher will rush again. He will always find ways to be fast, no matter what you try to implement.

 

I'm not here to discuss the theoretical perfect game scenario. I'm here to discuss these doors in the here and now. The fact is in a situation where there is one rusher and three non-rushers, the team will get scattered. In a situation where there are three rushers and one non-rusher the team will get scattered. The only way to prevent this from happening is to have a full team of like-minded players. But, I'm not here to discuss possible solutions for that issue. The doors don't work as an anti-rush solution, and even in a team full of rushers they represent a minor inconvenience wherein the entire team is forced to stop, activate, and wait for the door to open. These doors do not enforce teamplay nor do they really encourage it (unless your team consists of 2 players). 

 

Whether or not it should happen in the first place is not the topic of discussion here. The fact is it happens. You are being unrealistic.

 

Actually, IMO, the game should not attempt to force players to play a certain way. Do not assume I don't stick with my team. I do stick with my teammates when they are like-minded. I do not slow down to stick with non-rushers (unless they are newbies) because it isn't just my job to bend to them.

 

You should re-read the topic of this thread until you grasp the main topic.

 

I notice the doors at all times, even when playing with similarly paced players. Because a ~one second pause is pretty large.

 

That last line is part of the main topic's argument. These doors aren't teaching the rushers anything, they only manage to momentarily stop the rusher. They are failures. So why should they be kept in?

[SIDESTRE4M]

Re-read?

 

Ok, just let me take a moment to note everything:

 

You don't care about other players if they are not like-minded (based on you). (Don't tell me that's not part of the discussion because you see it so unbiased... which is simply not true)

You want those doors removed, because they are a nuisance to you, because YOU are the rusher that forces scattering.

 

This situation of scattered teams is common, the root of the problem and you are so bold to tell me, that you behave exactly like that root of the problem and therefore want to remove those doors, because they are a failure anyway and can only stop you for a moment?

 

O K

 

How about this:

I simply disagree, because in my selfish opinion they need to stay, because they don't bother me at all, but slow down people, that are not like-minded (based on me).

 

On a sidenote(namepun not intended): This sounds like a troll post, but it's not. Just think a bit.

Edited August 13, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[RSITH]

Actually I think they should stay. It would help for being cooperative to other players.

[-Praxa-]

Agreed.

[dzxbeast]

friendship doors are good to prevent a rusher from kill a boss and not marking his loot. (bosses that dont require full team to appear). its annoying to farm gallium(or some other rare resource), and when 1 guy just runs through him and if you got left behind with a slower frame - no loot for you.

 

IMHO the problem is that exploration is not rewarded. normal maps - you cant find anything usefull there. being mr12 i know, that there is no point in exploring. not even in void. it just takes too much time for no(normal) or small and uncertain(void) reward. reward exploration = less rushers = less need for antirusher mechanics

[SIDESTRE4M]

Void exploration is only usefull if you have the locker opener mod. And time. I do it sometimes to distract myself from grinding. As MR15, there is not much left to do.

[HellEnforcer]

|

Also slightly off point, but depending on the difficulty or effort involved a habit can be formed in as little as 18 days, I doubt sticking with a group can be that hard so I'd say a good system would keep all players fast or slow, even more stubborn cases, to try and pull themselves to an average speed within two maybe three months. Which might be more the trouble with the doors, they are not habit forming. Nor do they encourage consideration from slower players to conform to a faster group(Another topic all together, a lot of problems with that one.). 

Checkboxes would help, but as a coop game people should come together as a team. People should be capable of joining a mission and adjusting all their speeds to a middle ground. I feel like I compare elements of this game to dark souls too much, but there is certainly something to be said about its jolly cooperation in terms of doing things right. Two random players connect together to coop all the time without the need for a single checkpoint door and it works a whole lot better than Warframe. 

  (*deleted*)

I've got a couple suggestions actually between this, the last, and the hot topic, thread. 

1, Keep them outside mission objective rooms only. Most friendship doors in other games are placed to segment off significant waypoints/portions of levels, except for divide and conquer game modes like Hive. At least then they cover a purpose, keep people who get ahead of the group from invalidating the core content of that mission from others.

2. Replace them with Security checkpoints that have conditions unfavourable for a single person to simply bypass, without creating a gameless waiting block. Probably at least involving a lockdown puzzle, heavily reinforced cold procc turrets stationed at the exit, multiple defensive/heavy units that don't focus on damage and require flanking to best take down, significantly easier to do in teams, but not impossible solo. Actual gameplay that pushes sticking with the group on to players, hopefully even creating the habit. 

3(just thought up). Minor tweak just so they stop creating that small hitch in gameplay for good team and solo play, just have them open like regular doors when two players are within the door opening distance. 

 

 I agree with you here. As much as I say that rushers should play solo, I would also say that people that go tourist mode should play solo; or for both to at least find a team that wants to do the same (hence the checkbox). People that go into publics should be willing to stay with the team; it's a co-op game after all. Although the doors might or might not work as a motivation for fast players to stick to slow players, there is no incentive for slow players to catch up other than the possibility of no dual lock door on the level. It is true the game really needs to give players a reason to stick together. Personally, this would be kind of hard, since they would then take into consideration solo players.

 

 I also suggested your point #1 in an earlier reply. To put them just before extraction and the objective room. However, I am liking a lot more your second suggestion. That's great. It would pose no problem for a solo player either (in the sense of inability to accomplish or something boring), so the solo player problem I stated on the other paragraph would at least not have to worry about bypassing doors issues.

 

 As for incentive to stick with your team, I know they currently have something along the lines of making the enemies to have a lot more hp according to the amount of players on the mission (unless they changed that or I am remembering this wrong). However, this is hardly an incentive to stick. There are a lot of players that can blast away most if not everything on the game alone quite easily. Making said enemies to have increased damage is not really a solution either. Making enemies mobile tiny strongholds that can blast away moons with you armed with a BB gun is not really my definition of a challenge, it is just hard. WarFrame really needs some sort of new mechanic to make the game really challenging to fully equipped players without making it a living nightmare for players not maxed. Although I consider this related and a possible solution for the 'doors problem', I think some might consider it away from the main post, so I will leave it at that.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Re-read?

 

Ok, just let me take a moment to note everything:

 

You don't care about other players if they are not like-minded (based on you). (Don't tell me that's not part of the discussion because you see it so unbiased... which is simply not true)

You want those doors removed, because they are a nuisance to you, because YOU are the rusher that forces scattering.

 

This situation of scattered teams is common, the root of the problem and you are so bold to tell me, that you behave exactly like that root of the problem and therefore want to remove those doors, because they are a failure anyway and can only stop you for a moment?

 

O K

 

How about this:

I simply disagree, because in my selfish opinion they need to stay, because they don't bother me at all, but slow down people, that are not like-minded (based on me).

 

On a sidenote(namepun not intended): This sounds like a troll post, but it's not. Just think a bit.

 

Never said I don't care about those players. I just refuse to be the one who has to completely alter my playstyle to suit someone else's desires. Now, if I see that a player is trying to keep up with me, but just can't do it (heavy melee weapon+slower frame) I will (unless I'm farming a boss for loot) usually slow down so the player can keep pace. If they're making the effort, I will too. And this doesn't even impact or act as a support to my main arguments.

 

No, I want the doors removed because "1. The doors don't work as an anti-rush mechanic.

2. They don't contribute to a positive gameplay experience. 

3. They don't benefit anyone.

4. They are still present in solo.

5. They can be reworked but until then, they should be removed.

6. Countermeasures to prevent a single fast player from ending the mission early in a full party game are unnecessary as it is already impossible for a single player to start the extraction timer when the other three are alive and not present at extraction."

 

This is why I kept telling you to re-read the OP. The info is right there, no need for hilariously bad attempts at paraphrasing. 

 

Scattering happens because not every player (rusher or non-rusher) wants to go out of their way to change their playstyle to fit their teammates who are clearly not willing to alter theirs. Yes, they (the doors) are failures.

 

If that was an attempt to use my argument against me you failed. Because that isn't my argument. If that wasn't what you were trying to do you lost me as that is a hilariously bad argument.

 

If the OP sounds like a troll post I just urge you to leave the thread. You clearly aren't comprehending what I so carefully laid out and no amount of repetition or re-reading seems to be able to fix it.

 

friendship doors are good to prevent a rusher from kill a boss and not marking his loot. (bosses that dont require full team to appear). its annoying to farm gallium(or some other rare resource), and when 1 guy just runs through him and if you got left behind with a slower frame - no loot for you.

 

Unless you get really lucky with the door spawn and it spawns right before the boss room they do no such thing. And if you're failing to get to the boss loot before it despawns (I've never heard of boss loot despawning, but I'm going to assume it happens) there is something wrong.

[LukeAura]

-I think we've come to fairly amiable terms snip-

I guess this means we need a coop gameplay 2.0. 

or at least a megathread on ways to improve good teamplay habits, or team encouraging gameplay, or team anything really. 

 

[SIDESTRE4M]

Never said I don't care about those players. I just refuse to be the one who has to completely alter my playstyle to suit someone else's desires. (a)

Now, if I see that a player is trying to keep up with me, but just can't do it (heavy melee weapon+slower frame) I will (unless I'm farming a boss for loot) usually slow down so the player can keep pace. If they're making the effort, I will too. And this doesn't even impact or act as a support to my main arguments. (b)

 

No, I want the doors removed because "1. The doors don't work as an anti-rush mechanic. [They do. Or don't they stop rushers even for a moment?]

2. They don't contribute to a positive gameplay experience. [in may case and opionion this is not true]

3. They don't benefit anyone. [it benefefits me more or less based on the situation, if you want to put it that way]

4. They are still present in solo. [This point I agree]

5. They can be reworked but until then, they should be removed. [How about they remain until they are reworked?]

6. Countermeasures to prevent a single fast player from ending the mission early in a full party game are unnecessary as it is already impossible for a single player to start the extraction timer when the other three are alive and not present at extraction."

[Extraction is not everything]

 

This is why I kept telling you to re-read the OP. The info is right there, no need for hilariously bad attempts at paraphrasing. 

 

Scattering happens because not every player (rusher or non-rusher) wants to go out of their way to change their playstyle to fit their teammates who are clearly not willing to alter theirs. Yes, they (the doors) are failures.

[This is true like I stated too. And no, in my opinion the doors are better than nothing.]

 

If that was an attempt to use my argument against me you failed. Because that isn't my argument. If that wasn't what you were trying to do you lost me as that is a hilariously bad argument.

[You describe the problem and yet knowingly behave exact to make it happen. If this is considered using an argument against you, then I succeeded, but this is nitpicking]

 

If the OP sounds like a troll post I just urge you to leave the thread. You clearly aren't comprehending what I so carefully laid out and no amount of repetition or re-reading seems to be able to fix it.

[Paraphrasing... I never said that your OP is a trollpost. I would say re-read, but that would be trolling]

 

 

Unless you get really lucky with the door spawn and it spawns right before the boss room they do no such thing. And if you're failing to get to the boss loot before it despawns (I've never heard of boss loot despawning, but I'm going to assume it happens) there is something wrong.

[Yes, if that happens, then there is something wrong. But I never saw it with my own eyes. The door positioning is not optimal, but like I said earlier: I'd rather have them stay until they are positioned better. That they may disturb you, is your problem. Sry, if that sounded harsh, but for that reason you created this thread.]

 

I commented right in your post, to keep things simple. Even though I messed up with the italian bbcode. The answer functions in this forum really are uncomfortable.

 

Regarding a:

Where is the difference? Why should they alter their playstyle for you? You see what I mean? This is the part about mindsetting and if you don't want to change, why should others?

 

Regarding b:

You almost got me there if it weren't for the text in brackets. Nice that you try, but sry, you never mentioned that earlier and what you mentioned, didn't sound like it.

 

Overall: A lot of your statements are not statements, but opionions and thus can vary.

They don't contribute to anything... this may sound like one couldn't argue against it, but it's really just an opinion only.

They don't stop rushers... They do, even if it's for a moment. Your thread is proof.

They don't add immersion... Well, I read posts in this thread where people thought it does. I too don't think it adds that much of an immersion if any, but in this case the doors function is more important than immersion in my opinion.

Edited August 14, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[dzxbeast]

friendship doors are good to prevent a rusher from kill a boss and not marking his loot. (bosses that dont require full team to appear). its annoying to farm gallium(or some other rare resource), and when 1 guy just runs through him and if you got left behind with a slower frame - no loot for you.

 

 

Unless you get really lucky with the door spawn and it spawns right before the boss room they do no such thing. And if you're failing to get to the boss loot before it despawns (I've never heard of boss loot despawning, but I'm going to assume it happens) there is something wrong.

 

loot doesnt dissapear, its just that you have no idea where exactly the boss was or where he died and dropped his loot.

[SquirmyBurrito]

I commented right in your post, to keep things simple. Even though I messed up with the italian bbcode. The answer functions in this forum really are uncomfortable.

 

Regarding a:

Where is the difference? Why should they alter their playstyle for you? You see what I mean? This is the part about mindsetting and if you don't want to change, why should others?

 

Regarding b:

You almost got me there if it weren't for the text in brackets. Nice that you try, but sry, you never mentioned that earlier and what you mentioned, didn't sound like it.

 

Overall: A lot of your statements are not statements, but opionions and thus can vary.

They don't contribute to anything... this may sound like one couldn't argue against it, but it's really just an opinion only.

They don't stop rushers... They do, even if it's for a moment. Your thread is proof.

They don't add immersion... Well, I read posts in this thread where people thought it does. I too don't think it adds that much of an immersion if any, but in this case the doors function is more important than immersion in my opinion.

 

Having to pick through my quote to figure out who said what is really confusing for my tired brain so I may have missed some stuff.

They don't have to alter their playstyle just as I don't have to alter mine. My point was if I see them trying, I will slow down. I used to make the effort to slow down, but I got tired of being the only one who was willing to change my playstyle to suite my teammates.

 

B was copypasta from the OP.

 

1. They only 'work' on a technicality. In reality an anti-rush mechanic is not meant to momentarily halt all types of players while simultaneously not encouraging the rusher to stick around after it opens.

2. How do the contribute to a positive gameplay experience?

3. How do they benefit you?

4. I sure hope you weren't about to argue with a fact.

5. Why should something that only negatively affects gameplay (when the players aren't indifferent) be left in?

6. Extraction's timer prevents a rusher from ending the mission early. This also prevents almost all the other problems that people claim the doors fix but really don't. Redundant countermeasures are unnecessary especially when one (the door) does not work.

 

The doors are actually worse than nothing. Nothing would contribute to a neutral, forgettable gameplay experience. The doors cause the experience to waver between neutral and forgettable, to negative and memorable. That is a bad thing. The presence of the door garners negativity. The removal of the doors wouldn't bother anyone. I am 100% sure if they were stealth removed before I had put up either of these threads, most players wouldn't even notice, and those who did wouldn't care or would be happy.

 

You said "This sounds like a troll post", and I've basically been repeating the OP the entire time with extra bits added on when I figured extra flowerly language or unnecessary fluff was needed.

 

I'd rather they not stay for all the reasons I have already stated. You'd rather they stay because... you got nothing. Your argument boils down to 'its better than nothing' and 'I like them' when the first is blatantly false and the second one is largely irrelevant if you aren't going to post something to explain why you like them.

 

Most of my statements are supported by facts/are facts. Most of the arguments against them are opinions and many of them don't even make sense. 

False, that isn't my opinion. They don't actually contribute anything to a positive gameplay experience unless you derive pleasure from the annoyance of other players. And if you of that troll mentality, you are not someone that DE should be designing their game around. Only on a technicality and only for a tiny short period of time. They do nothing to prevent the rushers from rushing through the rest of that mission, thus the 'problem' is never fixed.

I don't think they add to immersion, but that really isn't my main concern here. The doors lack a useful, positive, worthwhile, 'fun' function. They only serve to halt players for a varying amount of time before unleashing them to repeat whatever actions they were doing prior. These doors are like the lockdown mechanic, but without all interesting and useful carved out of them.

 

 

loot doesnt dissapear, its just that you have no idea where exactly the boss was or where he died and dropped his loot.

 

Then that isn't an issue that these doors are helping fix nor is it an issue that plagues slower players that are playing with me (as I mark the loot).

[SIDESTRE4M]

Again, these doors don't serve you, but serve those who can't keep up, even if it is just a brief moment.

Even if the fast ones leave those in the dust again, the overall distance will be shorter than before.

 

 

Maybe you believe it's all facts, but it's mainly your viewpoint. Not other ones.

I don't take pleasure in unpleasureness of others, that is not the point. The slower ones get a chance to keep up a bit.

Since I still believe the rusher is more or less guilty for causing scattering to the front, which you can't deny, why shouldn't they be the ones to wait?

 

Those who don't make it to the boss to see where the loot is, or can't make it to the exttraction point in time or don't get a kill because they can't keep up...

Those are the real losers, not you or the rusher for instance.

Compared to that you just have to deal with a minor inconvenience caused by yourselves in the first place.

 

This is as well as an argument than yours, if want it or not.

 

Regarding the troll thing, you should really re-read(lol) because the whole line was referencing to my own post, because I got rather harsh there.

[CaptainJPrice]

+ for idea because it's really annoying and does not make any sense

[SquirmyBurrito]

Again, these doors don't serve you, but serve those who can't keep up, even if it is just a brief moment.

Even if the fast ones leave those in the dust again, the overall distance will be shorter than before.

 

 

Maybe you believe it's all facts, but it's mainly your viewpoint. Not other ones.

I don't take pleasure in unpleasureness of others, that is not the point. The slower ones get a chance to keep up a bit.

Since I still believe the rusher is more or less guilty for causing scattering to the front, which you can't deny, why shouldn't they be the ones to wait?

 

Those who don't make it to the boss to see where the loot is, or can't make it to the exttraction point in time or don't get a kill because they can't keep up...

Those are the real losers, not you or the rusher for instance.

Compared to that you just have to deal with a minor inconvenience caused by yourselves in the first place.

 

This is as well as an argument than yours, if want it or not.

 

Regarding the troll thing, you should really re-read(lol) because the whole line was referencing to my own post, because I got rather harsh there.

 

They don't serve anyone. They only require two people to open. They do not guarantee that the slowest players will ever catch up.

Not exactly.

 

No they aren't.

Not exactly as the doors only require two people and even if all three of the other players are moving at the same speed catching up for one moment of time only to be left behind again doesn't matter nor does it actually provide any sort of benefit. Disagree? Provide an example of one such benefit.

That's just you being biased. Neither player is more guilty than the other. Actually I CAN deny that as the slow player is just as guilty for not keeping up. Why should they be the ones to have to wait? You're falsely assuming that one playstyle (the non-rusher's) is of higher priority than that of the other (the rusher's).

 

Another poster has said that boss loot doesn't despawn. The extraction timer won't start unless there is a second person present. Not getting a kill is not a trait that is inherent in a rusher+non-rushers team. Especially given the fact that many rushers just bypass all the enemies.

None of the things you just said even made sense.

The inconvenience is only minor when there is another rusher to lessen our wait times. And said inconvenience isn't caused by us, it is caused by these doors. You're putting blame where it doesn't belong due to your strong bias.

 

No, it really isn't.

 

There was nothing to indicate what exactly you were referring to. Next time be more specific to avoid these kinds of misunderstandings.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Rushers present an extreme form of gameplay, so do extremely slow ones.

 

And somewhere in the middle is homogenity.

So you if you are either too fast or too slow, you are responsible for scattering.

 

This point of homogenity shifts to either direction, depending on what the majority does, if there is such.

 

You want an example? For what? As if you would back off from your opinion.

 

Two rushers: the other ones are the losers, because they won't be able to keep up. The doors would grant a few seconds at best.

 

One rusher: A door and he is destinied to wait and use the time to think about why he ended up there. 

 

Three rushers: No problem for them, the slow one is just unlucky and could as well just quit.

 

So yeah, the only real problem would be just one scenario where one player decides to be the don.

 

I think, that's why you posted here. I don't see the problem honestly.

 

This is why you think, those doors are crap and do nothing except hindering you, and this is why others want them to stay, exactly because they don't want one person to ruin their game, by for example rushing to the boss, not marking the loot or other reasons. Normally the rusher won't leave anything to kill for the rest. That's what the real gripe comes from. Not you bypassing everything.

 

Personally I took those doors as a chance for the team to regroup. Of course, it stops you for a moment, but who cares?

Ok, you care about that. And that's why you don't state facts, but personal opinions, because I see a reason in them and you don't.

Edited August 14, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[SquirmyBurrito]

Rushers present an extreme form of gameplay, so do extremely slow ones.

 

And somewhere in the middle is homogenity.

So you if you are either too fast or too slow, you are responsible for scattering.

 

This point of homogenity shifts to either direction, depending on what the majority does, if there is such.

 

You want an example? For what? As if you would back off from your opinion.

 

Two rushers: the other ones are the losers, because they won't be able to keep up. The doors would grant a few seconds at best.

 

One rusher: A door and he is destinied to wait and use the time to think about why he ended up there. 

 

Three rushers: No problem for them, the slow one is just unlucky and could as well just quit.

 

So yeah, the only real problem would be just one scenario where one player decides to be the don.

 

I think, that's why you posted here. I don't see the problem honestly.

 

This is why you think, those doors are crap and do nothing except hindering you, and this is why others want them to stay, exactly because they don't want one person to ruin their game, by for example rushing to the boss, not marking the loot or other reasons. Normally the rusher won't leave anything to kill for the rest. That's what the real gripe comes from. Not you bypassing everything.

 

Personally I took those doors as a chance for the team to regroup. Of course, it stops you for a moment, but who cares?

Ok, you care about that. And that's why you don't state facts, but personal opinions, because I see a reason in them and you don't.

 

How so? Claiming extreme implies different from normal. Who has the right to say what is extreme? How do you know rushing isn't the norm and therefore anything other than it is varying degrees of extreme. 

 

Scattering isn't the main topic of this thread.

 

I want examples because as it stands you're doing a whole lot of claiming but little-no substantiation. 

 

I never said anyone was a loser and I'm not sure why you're using the term. They may actually be able to keep up, they may just be choosing not to which is perfectly fine.

 

False. You do not know what is going through the mind of every rusher who finds themselves stopped and waiting. I myself dwell on just how big a failure the doors are and find myself getting angry over the fact that the doors have been left in the game for this long despite not really managing to do a whole lot or do anything that has a positive lasting effect.

 

The issue still exists, they are forced to stop and wait for the door to open.

 

No, the problem exists in all scenarios it just ranges in severity and is (even at its worst) often completely ignored by some players many of which are non-rushers who do not find themselves having to wait for extended periods of time.

 

It is impossible for one person to ruin a game in a way that these doors actively prevent. The doors don't stop a rusher from:

-Rushing to the boss.

-Killing the boss and not marking the loot.

-Killing everything.

-Not killing everything.

-Completing the objective.

-Rushing to and waiting at extraction.

 

There are two main schools of rushers and one hybrid, they are:

1. Rush and kill only what is required for mission completion.

2. Rush and kill everything, regardless of the mission's requirement.

3. Rush and kill something every now and then when you feel like it or it represents a danger (toxic ancient blocking a door).

 

To claim that 'normally the rusher won't leave anything to kill for the rest' is to completely ignore the other two types of rushers and both exist in large quantities. 

 

"That's what the real gripe comes from. Not you bypassing everything." -If this is the case you are in the wrong thread. The doors don't prevent a type 2 rusher from doing what it does.

 

The doors only require two people, and they are completely unnecessary for re-grouping. This game is not the kind of game that forcefully separates players. Therefore a regrouping mechanic is unnecessary. If you want to regroup you can do so whenever you want. I and others like me care. I have been stating facts since my last thread. You are stubbornly ignoring them. You may see a reason but you damn sure haven't shared a valid one with me. Provide me with a valid inarguable reason as to why these doors should remain. I have refuted every single argument you have made thus far and almost all of my refutations come from my OP.

[SIDESTRE4M]

I explained the norm depends on the majority of a team. So if a rusher ignores the majority, he represents an extreme aspect.

 

Scattering is the topic, since it's the root of the problem. I'm not interested in solving problems on the surface.

 

Loser is not meant as an insult, it is meant as the one who pulls the short stick.

 

I have over 750h real ingame playtime and I almost never saw anyone rushing without killing/ignoring mobs.

BTW: no one knows what's in the mind of everyone. Don't tell me, you represent a faction or something.

 

These doors do not prevent, they lessen the effect. So let's think further: If they implement something more effective, the rusher gets blocked more, so I doubt, that this would be your goal.

 

The game is not the type of game that forcefully separates players. So then it's fault of whom?

 

What argument do you want to hear? You THINK the game doesn't need a regrouping area. And it is true for some part. I never said it needed it (carved in stone) I said, that's my personal opinion. That's a difference you don't seem to know. These doors are an opportunity to regroup.

Your are not interested in regrouping? Fine, but don't tell me it's a fact, because you decided so. Maybe it's cool to get together and then advancing again. Maybe not, maybe not for everyone.

 

I got you some examples. There aren't much possibilities and the only thing that differs is our mindsetting. This is the spiral. We are repeating the damn thing for pages, only with different phrases.

 

Dwelling over something? Getting angry about those doors? I won't accuse you to be a hyperactive child raging over something so minor, but it's wierd.

I do not rage over those doors. You just fail to see that there are various viewpoints and you just picked one of them, labeling them as facts.

For you, they are facts. For me, they are just another view on the same situation.

 

Interestingly you talk about biased arguments.

Edited August 14, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[DiosGX]

Just to poke a different viewpoint in here... how about making the doors spawn dynamically once a certain overall distance is measured between players... o3o

 

Or have Lotus scream at you and say you're a bad Tenno. D:

[Cinematic_30FPS]

These doors do not prevent, they lessen the effect. So let's think further: If they implement something more effective, the rusher gets blocked more, so I doubt, that this would be your goal.

 

That is because you are not thinking outside the box. You are assuming that if the doors get replaced, that it would be with another in-game obstactle. However, this is not necessarily what we are asking for. Instead, we are asking for them to be replaced with a system or multiple systems that, together, would either make people not want to rush in the first place, or would make so that when people do rush, it isn't a problem. As an example of what one such system could be, someone suggested in the previous version of this thread that people with similar mastery ranks be grouped together to increase the chance of the players having a similar pace.

 

 

What argument do you want to hear? You THINK the game doesn't need a regrouping area. And it is true for some part. I never said it needed it (carved in stone) I said, that's my personal opinion. That's a difference you don't seem to know. These doors are an opportunity to regroup.

Your are not interested in regrouping? Fine, but don't tell me it's a fact, because you decided so. Maybe it's cool to get together and then advancing again. Maybe not, maybe not for everyone.

 

I got you some examples. There aren't much possibilities and the only thing that differs is our mindsetting. This is the spiral. We are repeating the damn thing for pages, only with different phrases.

 

Dwelling over something? Getting angry about those doors? I won't accuse you to be a hyperactive child raging over something so minor, but it's wierd.

I do not rage over those doors. You just fail to see that there are various viewpoints and you just picked one of them, labeling them as facts.

For you, they are facts. For me, they are just another view on the same situation.

 

Interestingly you talk about biased arguments.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, as soon as you decide to share it with others, you are only entitled to the opinion you can justify with valid facts and arguments. And in the posts from people who want the doors to stay, I am not seeing a lot of either. And trying to justify an opinion with the fact that it's an opinion is, quite frankly, not good enough. If you ever hope for anyone to at least understand your viewpoint, you will need to do better.

 

 

For you, they are facts. For me, they are just another view on the same situation.

 

The nice thing about facts is that they are still true even if you do not believe in them. If you think something that is being claimed as a fact is not actually true, then prove it.

[SquirmyBurrito]

I explained the norm depends on the majority of a team. So if a rusher ignores the majority, he represents an extreme aspect.

 

Scattering is the topic, since it's the root of the problem. I'm not interested in solving problems on the surface.

 

Loser is not meant as an insult, it is meant as the one who pulls the short stick.

 

I have over 750h real ingame playtime and I almost never saw anyone rushing without killing/ignoring mobs.

BTW: no one knows what's in the mind of everyone. Don't tell me, you represent a faction or something.

 

These doors do not prevent, they lessen the effect. So let's think further: If they implement something more effective, the rusher gets blocked more, so I doubt, that this would be your goal.

 

The game is not the type of game that forcefully separates players. So then it's fault of whom?

 

What argument do you want to hear? You THINK the game doesn't need a regrouping area. And it is true for some part. I never said it needed it (carved in stone) I said, that's my personal opinion. That's a difference you don't seem to know. These doors are an opportunity to regroup.

Your are not interested in regrouping? Fine, but don't tell me it's a fact, because you decided so. Maybe it's cool to get together and then advancing again. Maybe not, maybe not for everyone.

 

I got you some examples. There aren't much possibilities and the only thing that differs is our mindsetting. This is the spiral. We are repeating the damn thing for pages, only with different phrases.

 

Dwelling over something? Getting angry about those doors? I won't accuse you to be a hyperactive child raging over something so minor, but it's wierd.

I do not rage over those doors. You just fail to see that there are various viewpoints and you just picked one of them, labeling them as facts.

For you, they are facts. For me, they are just another view on the same situation.

 

Interestingly you talk about biased arguments.

 

Then that is based on a hypothetical situation that varies wildly and has very little to do with the main topic.

 

Scattering is not part of the main topic. Nor is it the root of the problem. The problem exists regardless of whether or not you have all players grouped together, one player out in front, or if you're playing solo.

 

Then that doesn't even apply here.

 

I have over 1k according to steam, I see it all the time especially since I am part of that group. Go farm Ruk with a PUG of rushers, half the time they will completely ignore the enemies and just rush straight for rush only pausing to shoot out the energy sapping door trap thing or interact with the friendship doors.

I never claimed to.

 

Only by a negligible amount. My first goal is the removal of these doors. After than my next goal would be to try and make sure that whatever mechanic that is chosen to replace them does not repeat the same mistake. The best replacement would be a reward to sticking with your team.

 

Everyone's, that should have been obvious.

 

I want to hear an argument that I can't blast metaphorical holes through with bits of the OP. Something you can justify as irrefutable. Something that will finally give your side a valid argument for them staying. No, I know for a fact that an extra regrouping mechanic is unnecessary. Is it nice to have? That is a matter of opinion. But it isn't required/needed given the fact that players can regroup or separate whenever they want to. That isn't even remotely close to what I said. I said it isn't needed because it isn't needed. That is a fact. And I was directly referring to an extra regrouping mechanic, not regrouping in general. Please make sure you are reading my posts thoroughly.

 

What examples? You mean those things I already refuted? We are talking in a circle because you keep recycling the same refuted arguments.

 

Dwelling on issues is a very human thing to do. I get angry over the fact that I lose time due to a mechanic that blah blah blah, I've already explained all this. I am neither hyperactive, nor a child. You think it is minor, I do not. The severity of this issue is very subjective as I already stated.

Actually, I have a viewpoint, that I am supporting with facts. You have failed to refute them because they are facts. You not liking/disagreeing with them does not change their status as facts.

 

1. The doors don't work as an anti-rush mechanic. -Fact.

2. They don't contribute to a positive gameplay experience. -Fact.

3. They don't benefit anyone. -Fact.

4. They are still present in solo. -Fact.

5. They can be reworked but until then, they should be removed. -First part is a fact.

6. Countermeasures to prevent a single fast player from ending the mission early in a full party game are unnecessary as it is already impossible for a single player to start the extraction timer when the other three are alive and not present at extraction. -Fact.

 

Edit: Also, everything that Oboeshoes92 just said much of which I just basically repeated.

Edited August 15, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[SIDESTRE4M]

Then that is based on a hypothetical situation that varies wildly and has very little to do with the main topic.

 

Scattering is not part of the main topic. Nor is it the root of the problem. The problem exists regardless of whether or not you have all players grouped together, one player out in front, or if you're playing solo.

 

Then that doesn't even apply here.

 

I have over 1k according to steam, I see it all the time especially since I am part of that group. Go farm Ruk with a PUG of rushers, half the time they will completely ignore the enemies and just rush straight for rush only pausing to shoot out the energy sapping door trap thing or interact with the friendship doors.

I never claimed to.

 

Only by a negligible amount. My first goal is the removal of these doors. After than my next goal would be to try and make sure that whatever mechanic that is chosen to replace them does not repeat the same mistake. The best replacement would be a reward to sticking with your team.

 

Everyone's, that should have been obvious.

 

I want to hear an argument that I can't blast metaphorical holes through with bits of the OP. Something you can justify as irrefutable. Something that will finally give your side a valid argument for them staying. No, I know for a fact that an extra regrouping mechanic is unnecessary. Is it nice to have? That is a matter of opinion. But it isn't required/needed given the fact that players can regroup or separate whenever they want to. That isn't even remotely close to what I said. I said it isn't needed because it isn't needed. That is a fact. And I was directly referring to an extra regrouping mechanic, not regrouping in general. Please make sure you are reading my posts thoroughly.

 

What examples? You mean those things I already refuted? We are talking in a circle because you keep recycling the same refuted arguments.

 

Dwelling on issues is a very human thing to do. I get angry over the fact that I lose time due to a mechanic that blah blah blah, I've already explained all this. I am neither hyperactive, nor a child. You think it is minor, I do not. The severity of this issue is very subjective as I already stated.

Actually, I have a viewpoint, that I am supporting with facts. You have failed to refute them because they are facts. You not liking/disagreeing with them does not change their status as facts.

 

1. The doors don't work as an anti-rush mechanic. -Fact.

2. They don't contribute to a positive gameplay experience. -Fact.

3. They don't benefit anyone. -Fact.

4. They are still present in solo. -Fact.

5. They can be reworked but until then, they should be removed. -First part is a fact.

6. Countermeasures to prevent a single fast player from ending the mission early in a full party game are unnecessary as it is already impossible for a single player to start the extraction timer when the other three are alive and not present at extraction. -Fact.

 

Edit: Also, everything that Oboeshoes92 just said much of which I just basically repeated.

 

I set the rest in the spoiler, because I see that a discussion based on principle doesn't lead anywhere.

 

I think you are more pragmatic and I am more idealistic.

 

This is how I would have answered.

1. The doors don't work as an anti-rush mechanic. -Fact.

(Yes, they aren't perfect, but they stop them, although it is for a short time, depending on the party layout. They lessen the distance, but that's it. You are right, is is not much. But as I see it, these doors are a reminder of why in the special case where you reach it alone (which is the only case where it really hurts the rusher, because he has to wait) why it happened in the first place. Since you don't approve of the teamplay principle I described earlier, you don't approve of this either. At this point you normally say, this wouldn't have to do with the thread, re-read and so on,... but it does, because that goes one layer deeper to the problem as I see it.

We could argue if the game needs better mechanics, which would slow you or the rusher down or remove them. Whatever it is, you cater to a sort of specific faction. So I think it's not a fact, because the non-rushers wants them to to stay to have at least anything, even if it is a tiny bit, and the rushers of course want them removed.) Personally I can adapt, so whatever happens, I can deal with it. It's just, that I have another view of what a team means ingame and this influences my viewpoint directly. You have a point for beeing pragmatic, but other than that, it would mean, that the game needs to have mechanics to force the player into one direction. This is either benifitial for your gameplay or not.

Your point is: if it doesn't do good enough, remove it, leave it removed. I can accept that as an personal opinion, but nothing more.)

 

2. They don't contribute to a positive gameplay experience. -Fact.

(So they either contribute to a negative gameplay expierience or a neutral one. This is true, but not for everyone. If they are completely neutral, they could be removed, but as long as people see a reason to it, I don't see why the urge to rush is more worth than someone having another reasons. Not everyone plays for max effiency and it all boils down to the randomness of the team. I like to gather the team to advance. I could do it anywhere, but it is more a subconscious thing. It's like you take a walk in the park but wouldn't sit down anywhere to rest if there is no bench. It is just an example, but as long as those exist, as you said yourself, opinions should be treated equal - unbiased.)

 

3. They don't benefit anyone. -Fact. (This point is obsolete, because it generalises and parts of it are in the other ones.)

 

4. They are still present in solo. -Fact. (Yes, this is BS. They barely serve something if anything here.)

 

5. They can be reworked but until then, they should be removed. -First part is a fact. (Possible, depends.)

 

6. Countermeasures to prevent a single fast player from ending the mission early in a full party game are unnecessary as it is already impossible for a single player to start the extraction timer when the other three are alive and not present at extraction. -Fact.

(You just need another one to start the timer, if I'm not mistaken. Then it's the same prozess like the teamdoors. The rusher have to wait there and it's again failed teamplay, if the others couldn't keep up and didn't troll. This demonstrates the same problem again.)

 

Honestly I'm not interested in "destroying" you or your arguments and I won't win a cookie if you say "yes, you are right", which won't happen anyways.

I just saw that opening post and thought, why can't he see that the problem wouldn't be there if he would just stick to the team like a real teamplayer regardless of only like-minded players or just play solo because he obviously doesn't need a team at all.

 

By the way: On steam I have over 1600h. The mission ingame time is a lot less though.

Yes I played a lot, and I saw a lot. I maybe have another premise of gaming priorities. I play solely for aiming, movement, survival and I play fast-paced too, but not fastforward, although I can rush to, if I want. I play solo or try to play within the team range.

 

By now I realised, that you have a completly other premise of what the game means to you.

I saw you as someone who presented antisocial gameplay because of selfishness and I partially still do, but you want a better game, like me and I think you understood me, but it's like two completely different premises clash.

I though if you could see the problem the way I do, you could realize, that the mindsetting can fix, what software is not capable of. (This would make the doors irrelevant and reduce my arguments to sentimental blah)

 

I realised I'm more against your way of thinking than against removing these doors. This would qualify as a trolling, so I will end it here.

Edited August 15, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[canibusprime]

I think that the doors should be limited to some missions like extermination and maybe mobile defense.

 

It's somewhat frustrating when you're playing with someone who seems to be in a rush. Like you're using a Machete and you're in the middle of a swing to kill the enemy in front of you and someone in a Warframe  twice a fast as yours runs up kills the enemy then runs off and proceeds to kill everyone in the building in 15 seconds and you just look and its like OK I guess you don't need my help.

 

In Mobile Defense missions it makes sense because in those missions generally everyone needs to stay pretty close to survive the mission anyway.

[DSpite]

I have come to the conclusion that yes, these 2 people doors don't work as intended.
 

So I vote that the doors get as many panels as there are people in the team. Fixed.

 

Have not asked this before, but feel free to upvote for this fine feature that works AND is functional.

 

EDIT: Also elevators that need the entire team.

Edited August 17, 2014 by DSpite

[SquirmyBurrito]

I have come to the conclusion that yes, these 2 people doors don't work as intended.

 

So I vote that the doors get as many panels as there are people in the team. Fixed.

 

Have not asked this before, but feel free to upvote for this fine feature that works AND is functional.

 

EDIT: Also elevators that need the entire team.

 

One troll/afk player would be enough to completely halt an entire team from playing. And they'd still fail to actually achieve anything more than temporarily stopping rushers. Not sure if trolling...

Edited August 18, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito