Enemies 2.0 (Addressing Challenge And Intrigue)

[Freeburn_Sage]

What makes games based around combating multitudes of enemies fun? The interesting combat that lies within. What does Warframe lack right now? A good selection of interesting enemies. I'm not talking about just different things to point and shoot and watch disintegrate, I'm talking about things that you see coming, must react to, and adjust yourself accordingly. For organization's sake, I'll try to break this up into separate paragraphs. 

 

As Warframe stands right now, there are a plethora of enemies. We have enemies that wield rifles, shotguns, pistols, sniper rifles, knives, swords, stun batons... Enemies that take cover, robots that stand in the way, drones that can fly, jetpack users, enemies that can send remote explosives to hunt you down, enemies that stun you, pull you, knock you down... And these are without the Eximus alterations. However, when was the last time you actually registered what you were about to face beyond maybe trying to kill a Scorpion/Ancient before it pulled you? We have so many enemy types, yet all of them feel the exact same. You still just aim at them and shoot. Maybe shoot twice, if it's got more health. Maybe shoot it first if it can knock you down and piss you off. This is a problem. What is the point of having so many interesting enemies that do so many things if they all just get slaughtered before they can even do anything? The answer is that there isn't. There's no point. A Seeker, Lancer, Trooper, Butcher, Ballista, and even the Bombard and Napalms all get killed the same way: Aim at them and shoot whatever gun you're holding, or go whack them in the face with your preferred stick-variant. So what could we do, increase their health? No. That's a terrible idea. Then you'd just shoot them a little more or whack them with your stick for longer. Same end result. So what do we do? We do Enemies 2.0, that's what we do.

 

Before we progress any further down this road, it's worth mentioning that no, the point of this is not to make every fight with every enemy a 30 second ordeal. Grunts are grunts, and they should be cannon fodder. Shoot them, whack them, they'll die easily. There's no problem here. Grunts are fun to kill. However, elite units should actually feel like ELITE UNITS. They should do interesting things, and make you stop and adapt. Probably the best example of this in the game is facing a Shield Lancer with a weapon that doesn't have punch-through on it. You actually have to stop, refine your aim to hit him, or try to out-maneuver him to get a hit in. This should be the bare minimum for elite units. Something that makes you adapt and adjust, but is counterable and doesn't just cheaply stop you from doing what you do.

 

So we need a set of standards for these new elite units. They should be something modular that be adjusted to fit new enemies for all factions, they should be based around concepts and tactics rather than stat adjustments, and they should fit in with the environment and lore of the game. These standards need to be flexible enough so that they can be used for a rework of the current enemies in Warframe, and for future ones to come. 

 

The standards are as follows:

1. They need to change the flow of the game without halting it.

2. They should require a change of tactics (Whether it be as simple as changing your weapon type or moving to flank, or as complex as countering warframe abilities/using them themselves or requiring a second analysis of the battlefield.)

3. They should never be uncounterable or do moves that the player could not reasonably counter or avoid.

4. They should have a sense of self-preservation.

5. They should reflect the faction that they are a part of. 

 

Now, I don't want the purpose of this thread to be a place where I just make up a bunch of enemies I want to see in the game, so that's why I decided to set a list of standards for what makes an interesting fight and interesting elite units. However, just to get a grasp on how these standards could work for real enemies, a comparison to some of the already "elite units" in Warframe could be applied, and should also serve as an eye opener on why some of the enemies are simply poorly designed. 

 

First, the Shield Lancer, as I mentioned earlier. It changes the flow by being an enemy that you can see coming and prepare yourself for, knowing that you can't just spray your gun in his general direction. It requires a change of tactics as it forces you to move or wait for him to expose himself. He is counterable, as you could simply equip punch-through and not even have to worry about him, and his only move besides shooting is charging at you and knocking you down, but you could evade or dispose of him, as now he is close enough to hit over his shield. His sense of self-preservation comes from wielding a shield that blocks bullets. He represents the iron machine that is Grineer by using sheer force and a large piece of metal held by strength to block bullets and absorb threats. It meets every one of the standards for Enemies 2.0.

 

Second, the Scorpion. She doesn't change the flow of gameplay, but halts it by forcing you to wait for her ability to get over with so that you can retaliate. She doesn't require a change of tactics, as you could just aim and shoot her like everything else. Her move is not counterable, aside from shooting her before she comes close, as once she fires that hook, you're going to be pulled. Period. She doesn't have a sense of self-preservation, as she openly runs at a Tenno, a master of gun and BLADE, and PULLS THEM TOWARDS HER so that she can whack them once with a machete before they vaporize her. She does, however, reflect the faction she is a part of quite well. A moronic, head-strong force of machine-people. 

 

Thirdly, the Napalm. He does interrupt the flow of gameplay, as he lays fire traps and launches damaging attacks which need to be dodged. However, he doesn't require much of a change of tactics, as you still just aim and shoot at him. His ability is counterable, as you could just dodge the fire. He doesn't have a sense of self-preservation, because he just walks slowly in the middle of the room like Rambo against something that would eat his soul by glancing in his direction. He does reflect the faction. 

 

You could repeat this for almost any enemy in the game, and almost none of them will stack up to the standards, and the same is true for even some of the BOSSES of planets (Prime example: Sargent Nef Anyo). These standards must be met, otherwise it's just an enemy with a different look and sounds to shoot at, or it's a cheap excuse for difficulty by being completely unreasonable without actually being a threat. More of an inconvenience. So, for the sake of thoroughness, I'll just spitball some ideas that meet the above standards.

 

Corpus: Electrician. He holds a strange pistol with a hole in its side in his right hand and a small metallic disk in his left. Upon seeing the Tenno, he holds out the metallic disk, and the disk deploys a small field of resistance that stops all damage from the direction he holds it. This field absorbs all damage that hits it, and when it has taken enough damage, the field supercharges and the disk begins to glow. At this point, the electrician puts this disk into the pistol, and aims his shot. A small guidance beam (Like a laser sight or something) comes out of the barrel and aims at a Tenno. After about a second, the beam grows in size and discharges all of the damage that went into the field back in that straight line. After this shot, the electrician lets his gun recover from the obvious overheating that it is now suffering, which lasts for about two seconds. Now, does this meet the standards? It definitely changes the flow of gameplay. You must adapt to the enemy wielding a shield of directional invincibility. It can be countered by either teaming up and having one Tenno fire into the shield and having another flank, or by firing into it, dodging his beam of death, and disposing of him while his gun is cooling down. He has a sense of self-preservation by holding a direction invincibility shield. He represents his faction, as he uses advanced technology and energy-based tools to attempt to dispose of the Tenno. 

 

Grineer: Cavalry. This Grineer troop wields a lance and wears jet-boots. Upon noticing the Tenno, he takes to the skies and begins dodging the incoming bullets, except for those that could precisely hit his jet-boots (Which will be moving around a bit.). He then swoops down at the Tenno, giving them a moment to melee attack to take him out, but dealing a punishing blow that results in a knockdown with his lance. If a player times the hit correctly, regardless of what melee weapon they are holding, it results in either a one hit kill, or grounds him where he can be dealt with simply. A successful shot to his jet-boots will also ground him, where he will make a final suicidal charge, which can be dodged or he could be shot as he stands up or while charging. A simple flying, melee-based enemy that would make you think and choose how to attack him, and he meets the standards. He changes the flow of gameplay by making you assess the fact that the enemy lifting into the sky has the ability to not only deal quite a bit of damage (on par with that of the powerfist), but also knock the player down. You change your tactics by either aiming precisely at his boots or waiting for him to swoop down and timing a melee attack to counter his move. He's counterable as he has a brief moment of vulnerability that results in a one or two shot kill, and you can dodge his charging lance attack. His sense of self-preservation comes from dodging bullets while airborne. He reflects the faction by using mechanical technology (The jet-boots, similar to the Hellion's jetpack), and being so headstrong as to go down with a final charge at the moment his jets quick working. 

 

So there's two examples. These lead to interesting encounters, especially when you begin facing two, three, or even four of them at the same time. This leads to intrigue, and a true sense of difficulty, not just "More health/damage". This is the first step in making this game hit that truly epic level that wants to be at, and will lead to a desire to actually play the game to fight interesting enemies, beyond just gathering items. I feel that this is the direction Warframe needs to head in to avoid stagnation. Otherwise, the game will just remain a grind-fest that's based around speeding through uninteresting levels to get loot that you can use to grind for other loot. Hell, even if this did become a reality, it might still be a grind-fest. But at least now it's a more enjoyable one. 

 

If you want to try your hand at designing an enemy that meets the standards, please post it below. If it's good enough, I'll edit it into this post and give ya some credit. 

[Nkomo-Sama]

NotionPhil made a very interesting thread touching on this very same topic and was addressed by DE. You can find it here. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/238581-forget-better-ai-we-need-better-dumb-enemies/ I like some of your enemy concepts. I believe enemy updates are coming soon as we have already seen MANY changes in the enemies since U7...Seriously too many to name. I look forward to the new changes. Check out the thread I recommended it touches on some of the very same points that you do. +1 for the OP though.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Nkomo-Sama

[Mountain_Dew_Camacho]

id like if the AI set up formations as if set by a player.  

 

in ancient battles, different bailiwicks went off at different times....

 

archers, cavalry, pikemen swordmen etc

 

 

 

a little twerking could add interesting environments with existing assets; namely formations.

 

why not have a row of shieldmen guarding a row of HG's... while getting flanked by flying eviscerators.

 

surround elites with this setup, and we have a more tactical shooter with need for strategy.

 

directly in response, id like an elite infested that uptakes its surroundings as armor, so if it adapts metal skin magnetic is its weakness... if it packs on layers of slain infested flesh corrosive is.  also it regrows its limbs, slowly or more based on the dead stuff available to it.

[Kappatalist]

I'll definitely agree that 90% of the enemies in this game are killed in the same way - Call of Duty style.  YAWN.  The ones that aren't typically use lazily programmed or not-well-thought-out and unfun means of self-preservation (bosses in particular).  The idea of directional damage blocking is something I've had in my mind for a while, but I really like the idea of that blockage being used against the player at some level of critical mass!

 

My idea for the pile is the Grineer Lobber.  They're an elite form of the humble Butcher, and like their standard counterpart they wield the iconic Cleaver.  However, mounted on their other arm is a buckler shield which they use to block incoming frontal damage.  However, instead of charging blindly into the fray, butcher knife in hand, these Lobbers do as their name implies and chuck their Cleavers at the player with great force, dealing heavy critical damage if it connects.

In essence, they are a ranged Butcher who cannot be hurt from the front.

The means of downing this foe would be a) Wait for an opening when they are tossing their Cleaver at you, during which time his shield would be aside, b) Flanking around and hitting him from behind while he is distracted or unalerted, c) Forcing an opening with an Impact proc, or d) Using high Punch Through, like with Shield Lancers.

[OptimumBow0]

Another problem, in my opinion, is actually the amount of enemies that spawn and how many types. At some point, they just get to be too much to take in all at once; you have a Helion over here, a Bombard over there, a few butchers coming in, and several lancers and an Elite or two just hiding over yonder and taking extremely accurate pot-shots.

 

They each represent a significant threat (except the Butchers), but I can't take steady aim at the Helion, or the Lancers and their higher counterparts, while trying to successfully dodge the Bombard.

 

It's hard to adapt to an enemy if there's several other guys that require different strategies of their own to dispatch, and that's what I think just motivates us to get rid of them the fastest way as possible - Press 4 or go to town with my primary. I'll get somewhat stressed trying to figure out the fastest way possible to get rid of large groups of enemies without using an ability.

 

Like you said, the Shield Lancer is a great enemy, and he was extremely interesting to fight when I was a newbie, but now, when he spawns in on Apollodorus (xp farming) at 15 minutes with those Bombards, I only ever think about how to get rid of them both as fast as possible. There's not really any room to spare or time to waste to get him to open up so I can finish him when I'm opening myself up for a deadly missile barrage. 

[Nkomo-Sama]

id like if the AI set up formations as if set by a player.  

 

in ancient battles, different bailiwicks went off at different times....

 

archers, cavalry, pikemen swordmen etc

 

 

 

a little twerking could add interesting environments with existing assets; namely formations.

 

why not have a row of shieldmen guarding a row of HG's... while getting flanked by flying eviscerators.

 

surround elites with this setup, and we have a more tactical shooter with need for strategy.

 

directly in response, id like an elite infested that uptakes its surroundings as armor, so if it adapts metal skin magnetic is its weakness... if it packs on layers of slain infested flesh corrosive is.  also it regrows its limbs, slowly or more based on the dead stuff available to it.

I am going to pray you mean tweaking.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

From a post I made about this subject (that didn't seem to get noticed much):

 

Corpus Enemies:

 

Shield Moa's:

 

These would be similar to the shield lancers of the Grineer, except they would have their guns mounted on an energy shield, so they'd be a more immediate threat than the shield lancers as they could shoot while completely protected. Players would be forced to move over or around them to kill them, and wouldn't be able to wait for them to stick their heads out like the shield lancers.

 

Magnetic Moa's:

 

These would be like standard Moa's, save with the ability of climbing on walls. The additional dimension of attack would especially make it difficult for melee players to stab their way through a room, as a few of these would be on the sides shredding them.

 

Corpus Electric Crewmen:

 

These crewmen would have moderate health, somewhere between the standard Crewmen and the Techs. They would be able to deploy a max of one electric barrier similar to Volt's shields. Players would not be able to shoot through them, and standard Crewmen would use their barriers as cover. Players would have to flank to destroy the Electric crewmen and any other Corpus with them.

 

Corpus Drone Protectors:

 

These drones would be much larger than the normal ones. When Corpus entered their range, they would deploy shields around each one. These shields would be impenetrable, making the Corpus invincible--except the Drone Protector. This would include invincibility towards Warframe attacks. Players would have to destroy the Drone Protector before they could attack any other Corpus. Only one Protector could be spawned at a time.

 

Corpus Whips:

 

These would be Corpus soldiers with Lecticas with extended range, with a 100% chance of stagger. This would make almost all melee attacks worthless against it. Players would have to shoot or use abilities to be able to attack.

 

Grineer Enemies:

 

Quick note: Grineer butchers, powerfists, and flameblades should be much quicker than they currently are, at least by levels 15-20 (maybe excluding defense and mobile defense versions). Also, guardsmen should start appearing as early as level 10.

 

Grineer Hammers: These enemies would wield Jat Kittags, and each strike would cause lots of damage. They would also be able to parry attacks from the front, making attacking them from the front a risky proposition for most players and unlikely to pay off. They would be too tall for most frames to jump over as well, and quickly follow the horizontal movement of players, making it hard to land any hits on them. However, they would not be able to track vertical movement over their heads. A player who executed a wall run, ending with a backflip over their heads, would have several seconds to pour ammo into them.

 

Grineer Boomerangs: This is somewhat inspired by one of Notionphil's ideas for a redesigned Scorpion from his Better Dumb Enemies post. These enemies would have shields on their backs, and would be able to block all damage from the front with their Kestrels. Their weakness, however, would be when they threw the Kestrel. If the player avoids it, the Boomerang enemy would have no protection for its front and could be attacked accordingly.

 

Grineer Sacrificers (until someone comes up with a better name): These would be a modification of the Grineer Boomerang. They would have some kind of highlighting to make them clear to players. If a player attempts to cast an ultimate ability within their range, they would receive all the damage and effects from the attack. This would kill them until insane levels, but would prevent the ultimate ability from affecting the rest of the lancers. Players would have to kill them if they wanted to use their ultimates.

[Freeburn_Sage]

NotionPhil made a very interesting thread touching on this very same topic and was addressed by DE. You can find it here. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/238581-forget-better-ai-we-need-better-dumb-enemies/ I like some of your enemy concepts. I believe enemy updates are coming soon as we have already seen MANY changes in the enemies since U7...Seriously too many to name. I look forward to the new changes. Check out the thread I recommended it touches on some of the very same points that you do. +1 for the OP though.

I guess I didn't see that thread. Cool to know there's a lot of people on the same page and that the developers are looking at this, though. 

 

id like if the AI set up formations as if set by a player.  

 

in ancient battles, different bailiwicks went off at different times....

 

archers, cavalry, pikemen swordmen etc

 

 

 

a little twerking could add interesting environments with existing assets; namely formations.

 

why not have a row of shieldmen guarding a row of HG's... while getting flanked by flying eviscerators.

 

surround elites with this setup, and we have a more tactical shooter with need for strategy.

 

directly in response, id like an elite infested that uptakes its surroundings as armor, so if it adapts metal skin magnetic is its weakness... if it packs on layers of slain infested flesh corrosive is.  also it regrows its limbs, slowly or more based on the dead stuff available to it.

lol'd at twerking. But nah, I don't think Warframe needs THAT level of tactics and strategy, that's better left to games like Rainbow Six and whatnot. This game isn't about being all THAT tactical, it's about killing the hell out of lots of things quickly. It's too fast paced to hit that level. Maybe on a lesser scale, yeah, and the idea of AI interacting with each other is pretty nice, just not to the extent of walls of shields and heavy gunners behind them. 

 

Another problem, in my opinion, is actually the amount of enemies that spawn and how many types. At some point, they just get to be too much to take in all at once; you have a Helion over here, a Bombard over there, a few butchers coming in, and several lancers and an Elite or two just hiding over yonder and taking extremely accurate pot-shots.

 

They each represent a significant threat (except the Butchers), but I can't take steady aim at the Helion, or the Lancers and their higher counterparts, while trying to successfully dodge the Bombard.

 

It's hard to adapt to an enemy if there's several other guys that require different strategies of their own to dispatch, and that's what I think just motivates us to get rid of them the fastest way as possible - Press 4 or go to town with my primary. I'll get somewhat stressed trying to figure out the fastest way possible to get rid of large groups of enemies without using an ability.

 

Like you said, the Shield Lancer is a great enemy, and he was extremely interesting to fight when I was a newbie, but now, when he spawns in on Apollodorus (xp farming) at 15 minutes with those Bombards, I only ever think about how to get rid of them both as fast as possible. There's not really any room to spare or time to waste to get him to open up so I can finish him when I'm opening myself up for a deadly missile barrage. 

See, that's why I'm trying to come up with interesting elite units. Quality of quantity. It'd be better to have one, two, or maybe even three of some really cool and interesting units and regular grutns than 15 of poorly designed things to just kill as fast as possible. 

[Freeburn_Sage]

From a post I made about this subject (that didn't seem to get noticed much):

 

Corpus Enemies:

 

Shield Moa's: Eh, I like the idea of them having an equivalent unit to the shield lancer,  but i feel if that were to become a trend, the different factions wouldn't feel so different. 

 

Magnetic Moa's: I like the idea, but I think this should be done with Grineer instead. Maybe they have claws on their boots? The reason why is that Corpus already have Drones for higher targets, it's not that different. Add that to Grineer, however... It'd be unexpected, and if they're a rare enough unit, they won't make Grineer feel anymore like Corpus.

 

Corpus Electric Crewmen: I like it, but I would add one thing: If you can hit the thing directly with a pure electric/magnetic attack (Meaning no other damage types with it) it should fry the shield and kill all immediately behind it. It'd give volt/mag an added advantage over the Corpus, that I feel they should have, and make eletricity weapons useful beyond just CC and whatnot.

 

Corpus Drone Protectors: I like it. Makes you assess the situation.

 

 

 

Corpus Whips: Not big on the 100% stagger no matter what. That's kinda on the realm of cheap, as players have no way to dodge it. Maybe if an interaction was added that if you timed it right and hit melee, you'd grab the whip and pull them towards you, disarming them, I'd be okay with it.

 

Grineer Enemies:

 

Quick note: Grineer butchers, powerfists, and flameblades should be much quicker than they currently are, at least by levels 15-20 (maybe excluding defense and mobile defense versions). Also, guardsmen should start appearing as early as level 10.

 

Grineer Hammers: I like it. Charging enemies to dodge is fun. Only thing I'd change is that I wouldn't quite put it to where you have to wallrun only. A simple juke or cartwheel or something should be enough to dodge if you're standing near a wall. 

 

Grineer Boomerangs:Good. I like it. 

 

Grineer Sacrificers (until someone comes up with a better name): I like it. Also, it could redirect ALL damage/CC abilities at itself, and you could whittle it down that way.

Responses in the quote.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Responses in the quote.

 

Now that you mention it, the Corpus whips would be infuriating. And I get your points about the shield moas. As for magnetic moas I could see them being on either faction, just I had more Grineer enemy types so I added them to Corpus. I think magnetic damage should have some kind of boost against the shield--maybe if one player hits it from behind with magnetic damage it shuts down, allowing teammates to attack as normal--but I think most players put electric/magnetic damage on their Corpus builds anyway, so giving the shield that kind of weakness would make it almost useless.

 

As for the Sacrificers redirecting all damage at them, my concern would be that players would end up killing them without even realizing they're around just by shooting.

[Freeburn_Sage]

Now that you mention it, the Corpus whips would be infuriating. And I get your points about the shield moas. As for magnetic moas I could see them being on either faction, just I had more Grineer enemy types so I added them to Corpus. I think magnetic damage should have some kind of boost against the shield--maybe if one player hits it from behind with magnetic damage it shuts down, allowing teammates to attack as normal--but I think most players put electric/magnetic damage on their Corpus builds anyway, so giving the shield that kind of weakness would make it almost useless.

 

As for the Sacrificers redirecting all damage at them, my concern would be that players would end up killing them without even realizing they're around just by shooting.

I think there's a bit of miscommunication. What I meant by the magnetic/electric weakness for the shields would be that if it were hit by ONLY that damage type. No other damage added to it. So say if I have a puncture weapon with magnetic on it, that wouldn't, but a weapon that shoots pure electricity would. The Sacrificers I meant that only abilities would. Not bullets and melee damage and whatnot. It'd just be a way of stopping ALL damage/CC abilities instead of just ults.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I think there's a bit of miscommunication. What I meant by the magnetic/electric weakness for the shields would be that if it were hit by ONLY that damage type. No other damage added to it. So say if I have a puncture weapon with magnetic on it, that wouldn't, but a weapon that shoots pure electricity would. The Sacrificers I meant that only abilities would. Not bullets and melee damage and whatnot. It'd just be a way of stopping ALL damage/CC abilities instead of just ults.

 

Sorry about that. Yeah, those things do make a lot of sense.

[AandOE]

What about an Orthos wielding enemy, with a Reach Mod attached to it? Enemies in general could have stances put on them, so that each enemy of the same type could have several different animation sets. One could be a regular, another could be the same weapon with stance #1, and another could be the same weapon with stance #2... :D

[Freeburn_Sage]

What about an Orthos wielding enemy, with a Reach Mod attached to it? Enemies in general could have stances put on them, so that each enemy of the same type could have several different animation sets. One could be a regular, another could be the same weapon with stance #1, and another could be the same weapon with stance #2... :D

I mean, that'd be cool and all, but it doesn't really change the fact that he'd die in all of about 2 milliseconds after a Bultor Prime got aimed at him. 

[Renegade343]

I mean, that'd be cool and all, but it doesn't really change the fact that he'd die in all of about 2 milliseconds after a Bultor Prime got aimed at him. 

Speaking of your thread, I have been working out on the existing enemies to make them better-ish while fighting them. If you like to see it and maybe ask me to help crunch some numbers for you for your new enemies, I can help you.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Renegade343

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Speaking of your thread, I have been working out on the existing enemies to make them better-ish while fighting them.

 

I'm not sure if all the existing enemies should be modified. Let's not forget that at one point we were all new and most of us probably weren't good at the game. For the first two or three planets the enemies are varied enough to stay fun while players still learn the basics of the frames and modes. Maybe adding elite versions of everything would do it, but then again I think most of the enemies shouldn't take much strategy.

[Renegade343]

I'm not sure if all the existing enemies should be modified. Let's not forget that at one point we were all new and most of us probably weren't good at the game. For the first two or three planets the enemies are varied enough to stay fun while players still learn the basics of the frames and modes. Maybe adding elite versions of everything would do it, but then again I think most of the enemies shouldn't take much strategy.

I think Grineer heavy units could afford to be a bit more heavier, in exchange for slightly reduced damage (and the Napalm shot really needs to be looked at, considering the explosion splash radius does not match the visual explosion). 

[Freeburn_Sage]

Speaking of your thread, I have been working out on the existing enemies to make them better-ish while fighting them. If you like to see it and maybe ask me to help crunch some numbers for you for your new enemies, I can help you.

Well, do note that a wide variety of the enemies are fine as is. Troopers, Lancers, Butchers, Ballistas, enemies like those and their Corpus equivalents are perfectly fine. They're supposed to be fodder. Also, while throwing around enemy ideas is cool and all, that's not really where I was trying to go with this thread. Instead, I was trying to give a foundation, a basis, and standards on which the elite units should be remade or made from to provide interesting ideas. 

[Renegade343]

Well, do note that a wide variety of the enemies are fine as is. Troopers, Lancers, Butchers, Ballistas, enemies like those and their Corpus equivalents are perfectly fine. They're supposed to be fodder. Also, while throwing around enemy ideas is cool and all, that's not really where I was trying to go with this thread. Instead, I was trying to give a foundation, a basis, and standards on which the elite units should be remade or made from to provide interesting ideas. 

While I do agree with having fodder enemies (after all, they do have their own challenge), some of the more current elite units (Grineer Heavy units, Corpus Techs etc.) do need a quick rework, as they currently function somewhat similar to fodder enemies (at least with before, those elite units were actually pretty tough. Now, they just look like a very small roadbump, even with starter gear).  

[AandOE]

Allow melee-only enemies to have the Tenno abilities of blocking bullets with their weapon, to parry, channel, and such and so on. ^_^ Bullet problem solved, Freeburn_Sage~

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I think Grineer heavy units could afford to be a bit more heavier, in exchange for slightly reduced damage (and the Napalm shot really needs to be looked at, considering the explosion splash radius does not match the visual explosion). 

 

I don't think the first part ultimately changes much. People would either mod up their weapons a little more or leave survivals a little earlier. Ultimately the heavies would still be treated the same way: We kill them before they kill us. Little more thought required.

[Renegade343]

I don't think the first part ultimately changes much. People would either mod up their weapons a little more or leave survivals a little earlier. Ultimately the heavies would still be treated the same way: We kill them before they kill us. Little more thought required.

We can have situational reactive armour for the Grineer heavy units, for starters. 

 

When a side of the Grineer heavy unit is shot, then the reactive armour mechanism will come online and reduce damage on the shot side, at the expense of leaving other places vulnerable to full damage. That way, it would actually make players move around a bit more, or cooperate with team members. 

[Xievie]

1. They need to change the flow of the game without halting it.

 

This is the most important thing.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

We can have situational reactive armour for the Grineer heavy units, for starters. 

 

When a side of the Grineer heavy unit is shot, then the reactive armour mechanism will come online and reduce damage on the shot side, at the expense of leaving other places vulnerable to full damage. That way, it would actually make players move around a bit more, or cooperate with team members. 

I like that a lot.

[Freeburn_Sage]

This is the most important thing.

Hence why I made it number 1.