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Alt Fire And Zoom In Are Separate Keys. Why Don't They Work As Such?


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Yes, the want/feature request is clear, but there are currently it isn't on the table for implementation. Not the best news if you wanted it, but it's the truth at this time.

 

Rebecca... you know this is pretty much common table talk for a PC game (I consider it a PC game since it originated here, and that is what I funded and founded, not a console port where you make more money)...

 

And to be frank, DE should not be limiting the PC version of the game so its compatible with the console PORT.

(Although with this, it really isn't an issue... there are ways around it to introduce this for console players, several suggestions posted above for instance.)

 

And seeing as how this is pretty popular (I'd bet your yearly salary if you put it up for a community vote, it'd be huge/majorly/all-in favour of having a different key usage for alternate fire and all weapons retaining RMB for zoom).

 

This begs the question: If the community would demand this be so, why is this not being immediately pushed to the forefront? Why haven't you (DE) done this in the first place? What is the purpose of limiting usage options and creation options of weapons? 

 

When I think of a gun having an alternate fire, I do not think of losing my ability to zoom/focus/aim/nothipfire my gun, I envision flipping a switch, hitting a button, toggling the mode etc to activate or take use of the alternate fire. I like options, the community likes options, we all like options. This isn't a gamebreaking/storybreaking thing, this is a quality of gameplay change (for the better).

 

Or in this case... it would be DE recognizing a serious flaw in the 'shooter' part of Warframe and finally correcting it to at least be on par with other 'shooter' gameplay of other games.

 

~short edits for clarity/grammar police~

Edited by SilverZs
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The reason it doesn't work (i.e why have the binding if it doesn't work) is because some weapons weren't designed with an aim property but with a secondary fire (i.e it's one or the other, not one and the other). Dev explains that aim brings a bunch of different values into play on those weapons, and because those values aren't set up by design, the binding has no affect. Combining the two is a solution that's being explored because it will represent what's actually happening instead of a bogus setting that does nothing.

 

This is a pretty disconcerting concept entirely.  All weapons should have a basic behavior which is common among all weapons and then any secondaries should be separate.  We have a lot of weapons which suffer from an inability to aim which is apparently due to a secondary fire option.  It sounds like all of these weapons need a redesign, because quite frankly this just sounds like complete incompetence rather than any sort of design decision.

 

Every weapon which doesn't have a secondary fire property has some sort of zoom whether or not it makes sense (shotguns for example) and zooming in slows down aiming so there is a benefit outside of the zoom property itself.  There is simply no good reason that basic zoom options shouldn't be available for every weapon.

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This is a pretty disconcerting concept entirely.  All weapons should have a basic behavior which is common among all weapons and then any secondaries should be separate.  We have a lot of weapons which suffer from an inability to aim which is apparently due to a secondary fire option.  It sounds like all of these weapons need a redesign, because quite frankly this just sounds like complete incompetence rather than any sort of design decision.

 

Every weapon which doesn't have a secondary fire property has some sort of zoom whether or not it makes sense (shotguns for example) and zooming in slows down aiming so there is a benefit outside of the zoom property itself.  There is simply no good reason that basic zoom options shouldn't be available for every weapon.

Agreed.

 

Its a more then a disconcerting concept, its entirely flawed from the ground up.

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This is a pretty disconcerting concept entirely.  All weapons should have a basic behavior which is common among all weapons and then any secondaries should be separate.  We have a lot of weapons which suffer from an inability to aim which is apparently due to a secondary fire option.  It sounds like all of these weapons need a redesign, because quite frankly this just sounds like complete incompetence rather than any sort of design decision.

 

Every weapon which doesn't have a secondary fire property has some sort of zoom whether or not it makes sense (shotguns for example) and zooming in slows down aiming so there is a benefit outside of the zoom property itself.  There is simply no good reason that basic zoom options shouldn't be available for every weapon.

Agreed. +1

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But you can still understand that we want to be able to ADS with these guns that also have an Alt-Fire function, right? This is just how some of us are wired, and we really have a hard time working with these otherwise cool weapons that won't let us play with them the way that's comfortable for us.

 

Also, again, I hope this has nothing to do with console players and their lack of input options.

This. All of this.

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Yes, the want/feature request is clear, but there are currently it isn't on the table for implementation. Not the best news if you wanted it, but it's the truth at this time.

 

It'd really like them to get on the table.  I use the aim feature a lot, and I don't enjoy using weapons that can't aim.  It would make my gaming experience richer if I could enjoy weapons like the paracyst more.

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i'm gonna make the perhaps unpopular comment that zooming/sights with all weapons is unnecessary. i don't see why i need to zoom in with a penta or stug; their projectile properties sort of negate that and zooming is not going to help you hit a target 50m away. the quanta and its variants are supposed to have limited range, and i much prefer having interesting secondary fire modes to the ability to zoom on every weapon. i would also argue that zooming on secondary weapons is unrealistic unless they actually had scopes on them, but that's a different topic.

 

perhaps the only reason to have zooming is that it helps console players because it's much harder to get headshots with controllers than with keyboard + mouse.

 

off topic: i think a lot of players are spoilt by the so-called modern-day shooters like CoD and battlefield, which sort of popularised scopes and sights. in the good old days (from wolfenstein and doom up to titles as "recent" as half life 2, unreal tournament 3), first-person shooters gave you only a few weapons with which you could zoom in. then mass effect made third-person the "in" thing (but note: iirc "zooming" in mass effect only zooms if the weapon has a scope, otherwise it just gives you a first-person view) and now practically every game in the genre is third-person, which can be hard to aim with given lots of distractions in the foreground, but it helps with melee being able to see where you are in relation to your surroundings.

 

all in all, complex design decisions, first-person vs. third person, yadda yadda yadda. i agree with the decision to not have zoom with every weapon, and i like the weapon mechanics and variety in this game, but i feel the team should focus on balancing weapons in terms of their stats (like maybe straight-up damage vs. crit vs. procs vs. combination of these, as opposed to a few good weapons vs. the rest that are mastery fodder that we have at the minute). that would make my gaming experience richer.

Edited by Shy0
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there isn't any implementation problem for Consoles.

if both Actions are available for use, and can be bound separately:

if you bind both to the same button, both would function on the same button. that can be the default for less complex controls.

if you bind them separately, then they work separately.

I think you missed the point, where it doesn't matter that there are separate bindings, because there aren't separate functions on weapons themselves to support all three separate actions. There was never actually a separate Aim and secondary fire function, as they always both did the same thing: trigger the action set to the secondary function of the weapon (either ADS for most weapons, or the special function of special weapons).

 

 

Also, DE keeps saying Year of quality but barely look like they are heading in that direction after two months,  

10 months to go and you've already lost hope? XD

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I think you missed the point

you missed my point.

the only things that can possibly hold back this imrprovement, is worrying about Keybinds on Consoles, and people in the office having the time to get it done.

(and maybe people being stubborn but i can't anticipate that).

i addressed both in my post.

ruling out any conflicts with Console Keybinds means that having the separate Functions actually be separate has no recursive issues. therefore Alternate Fires can be reprogrammed to work with the Alternate Fire Keybind, and FineAim can be FineAim.

the only thing left is people in the office having the time to get it done.

ruling out as many possible hitches as possible to give as little reason as possible for this to not be resolved.

i just said the same thing twice because there's nothing to explain.

Edit:

and FYI:

some Weapons are hardcoded to FineAim, some are hardcoded to Alternate Fire.

newer ones to Alternate Fire. still leaving them without FineAim, even though two actions aren't hardcoded to one Keybind anymore, so the Weapon not having it for either 'balance' (don't make me laugh) or to avoid function overlap.

Edited by taiiat
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Yes, the want/feature request is clear, but there are currently it isn't on the table for implementation. Not the best news if you wanted it, but it's the truth at this time.

I'm really disappointed to hear that. I honestly don't understand the reasoning behind not allowing ADS on these weapons in the first place. Some of them aren't even remotely designed to be run and gun weapons *cough* buzlok *cough*.

 

Its killing a lot of really interesting and unique weapons for me and a lot of other players, turning them into mastery fodder till the ADS issue is resolved. It kills their functionality and makes them painful to use, giving players little choice when using these weapons. Its limits them hugely. Thats the worse thing about it, most of the weapons that suffer from this are also some of the more interesting and fun weapons to use.

 

Its honestly a basic feature that should have been shipped with these weapons, or at least added soon after if it got overlooked.

I'm normally the last to get my panties in a twist over a decision that you guys have made, but this is one thing I strongly disagree with and I just can't wrap my head around the logic of not fixing this. I'm no programmer so I could be wrong, but this is a relatively simple addition, right?

I've held back from spamming the forums with threads about it and been patiently waiting for a year hoping this would get addressed. This is something a majority of the community wants and would at least help stem the tide of sarcastic "year of quality" comments and get the needy part of the forums off your back a bit.

 

I'm honestly not trying to grill the Devs here, but I'm not grasping the logic behind leaving this even longer, and as much as I hate it when people jump down DE's throat over the "year of quality" statement and use it as ammo less then two months into the year, ADS seems like a basic QOL function. I get theres a lot on your plate, but I'm hoping to see ADS sometime into U16 at least. Hek, if I had any coding skill at all I'd fly my butt down there and do it for free. I'd bring cookies for the whole team even. 

Edited by StinkyPygmy
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I think people in this thread are missing the point...

 

Weapons with an alt-fire were never intended to zoom.  It's a trade-off.  You're not supposed to zoom with the Quanta.

 

This is all working-as-intended.

It's a trade-off for what?

 

And even if it's working as intended, it definitely isn't working how players would like it to work. This is why this is feedback.

 

DE changes things all the time they designed in a way that players didn't like.

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This is a pretty disconcerting concept entirely.  All weapons should have a basic behavior which is common among all weapons and then any secondaries should be separate.  We have a lot of weapons which suffer from an inability to aim which is apparently due to a secondary fire option.  It sounds like all of these weapons need a redesign, because quite frankly this just sounds like complete incompetence rather than any sort of design decision.

 

Every weapon which doesn't have a secondary fire property has some sort of zoom whether or not it makes sense (shotguns for example) and zooming in slows down aiming so there is a benefit outside of the zoom property itself.  There is simply no good reason that basic zoom options shouldn't be available for every weapon.

Agreed. I was going to say just this, but since you've done it so nicely already, I'll just quote your for the truth.

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Honestly they dont' even have to think of what would be a good binding for it.

Every player will figure it out by themselves

Just make it work, that's all what's needed.

I can't imagine how horrifying that will come out for a console player. Do they even have enough buttons for MORE binding?

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I can't imagine how horrifying that will come out for a console player. Do they even have enough buttons for MORE binding?

You'd be surprised how crafty some developers are with gamepad bindings.

Press A/B/X/Y - 4 buttons

But what if you hold LB while pressing them? that's another 4.

etc..

Edited by Shifted
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But you can still understand that we want to be able to ADS with these guns that also have an Alt-Fire function, right? This is just how some of us are wired, and we really have a hard time working with these otherwise cool weapons that won't let us play with them the way that's comfortable for us.

Also, again, I hope this has nothing to do with console players and their lack of input options.

I can assure you it has nothing to do with console input options. Even on a console controller, I am able to make room for Aim and Secondary Fire independently. If you get creative with the layout, you can definitely make it work on console controls. Edited by (PS4)ShuhanX
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It's absurd that there are no plans to address this problem. The Buzlok and Quanta family are *miserable* without aiming functionality. The Penta and Castanas get away with it because they can still aim much of the time, and besides, ordinance doesn't need to be pinpoint accurate. I would be fine with it if there weren't marksman weapons that were gimped by this; Quanta suffers the most, with perfect accuracy and extremely long range. Adjusting mouse sensitivity is not a substitute for good controls! That's what ADS is for.

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Small bumplike motion.  This thread/problem needs to be addressed.

 

To those saying that weapons with an alternate fire that cannot aim have it as a trade off for the alternate fire, please explain why there is even a key binding for alternate fire in that case.  Clearly at least one of the weapons with alternate fire that we currently have ought to have an aim/zoom feature as well, otherwise there wouldn't be a slot for the alt fire binding.

Edited by Vitalis_Inamorta
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I can't imagine how horrifying that will come out for a console player. Do they even have enough buttons for MORE binding?

Does it matter? DE swore up and down the Holy Grail that they would not limit the PC version of the game by the Console PORT.

 

It's a fundamental flaw. It's not us (the players) asking for say a, bug, to be fixed. We're telling DE to fix a giant crack in the foundation of Warframe. 

 

And to be honest, based on the amount and quality of posts going into this thread, if they ignore this and do nothing, DE will have a pitchfork and torch riot on their hands.

 

 

Hey DE, remember Fleming Drive? That was pretty close to home wasn't it! 

 

:-D

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About this option:

7KlQyaR.jpg

There is currently a discussion on the topic which may result in Aim/Secondary Fire being combined, as separating the two actually doesn't allow for any real function on a handful of weapons (as OP suggests).

More on this topic after dev continues to discuss/investigate, but just a general heads up that this is on the radar and may result in a simplified solution where Aim/Secondary bindings are combined.

That is NOT what we want; in fact, it is the complete exact opposite of what the OP wants.

Did you even read this thread...

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That is NOT what we want; in fact, it is the complete exact opposite of what the OP wants.

Did you even read this thread...

Uh, she already mentioned she understands what we are asking here. And she's not even making these calls but being the intermediate between the community and the devs.

 

And she said there is a discussion on the topic with a heads up on what may happen.

 

This thread is getting more popular again so we can just hope the devs see this as something worth doing to make some people happy.

Edited by Naftal
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I think people in this thread are missing the point...

 

Weapons with an alt-fire were never intended to zoom.  It's a trade-off.  You're not supposed to zoom with the Quanta.

 

This is all working-as-intended.

Considering a fair amount of the alt fire weapons are terrible run and gun weapons I'd say not. I've encountered no game where altfire removes ADS. Even if this is intended, its ridiculous, unfun for a lot for players and adds nothing to the game.

 

A trade off implies that the negative exists to provide balance to the positive.

A lack of ADS is not exactly a feature that makes a weapon OP or provides substantial power to even warrant a trade off. Its a basic feature that should exist simply on the basis that is has no reason not too and is a functionality centered option. Its a QOL/user friendly option.

If this is supposed to be a trade off, then its an example of how not to do it. For example, a good tradeoff would be much larger ammo consumption on the more powerful AOE fire of a weapon, not something that hinders usability.

If we're talking trade offs then why isn't it on the boltor prime or soma prime? (they at least have substantial power to justify a trade off, not that a lack of ADS would be suitable, but its to illustrate a point). See how redonk that sounds?

Theres no logical reason for Alt fire weapons to not have ADS.

 

Its not a trade off, its just flat out absurd.

Edited by StinkyPygmy
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