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Ammo Nerf Protest


TX10000
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IMO, their ammo just needs doubled.  Penta would have 40 ammo instead of 20. That is a slight tweak.  It should never be like it was before with hundreds of ammo capacity.

 

I agree, but increasing the ammunition by 100% wouldn't exactly be listed as a "slight tweak" for me. It's a gamechanger, though I would prefer 50 or so.

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But I am talking about it like an adult... and I'm saying this is more bad for those who enjoyed using rocket launchers than it is for people who don't really care... This bad for those who put a lot of work in them, forma'ing, tatering and re leveling it up to perfection, but it's FAR worse for people who are now getting it and have to level it up with it's 20 ammo reserve, honestly this is why I say it's mastery fodder because even if you happen to get it up to par and equip all the much needed dmg mods on it, you're probably gonna be using it now 4% of the time when leveling it and are instead gonna be stuck using your secondary or melee weapon to lvl it, is that really what warframe has come down to?... Leveling your favorite guns not by using them, but by using another gun to get them up to speed so you can use them the way they were meant to be used... The truth is I never got to make the penta because I was gonna focus on building the ogris first since I painted it to look just like the BFG 9000... but thanks to the nerf happening now, not only am I never gonna touch the ogris again, but I'm not even gonna bother building the penta or even looking at it, I mean what's the point now?...

 

I dunno, wiping away entire hordes of enemies in defense with very little effort? Don't try to pretend that just because you no longer like something nobody will like it. I'm sure we're going to see some tweaks soon, they probably just wanted to get this out there to get feedback on it. Doubling the pools will be satisfactory.

 

And no, you're not talking about it like an adult. If you want some examples of good feedback, read Arabaxus' posts. He's being calm, analyzing the situation, and proposing tweaks in a non-rage filled manner.

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I dunno, wiping away entire hordes of enemies in defense with very little effort? Don't try to pretend that just because you no longer like something nobody will like it. I'm sure we're going to see some tweaks soon, they probably just wanted to get this out there to get feedback on it. Doubling the pools will be satisfactory.

 

And no, you're not talking about it like an adult. If you want some examples of good feedback, read Arabaxus' posts. He's being calm, analyzing the situation, and proposing tweaks in a non-rage filled manner.

     Not everyone is capable of giving feedback like the people you like feedback from, sure some of my posts have been immature, but they're feedback nonetheless and anyway you look at it, all of us who are against this overnerf are all agreeing on the same thing, albeit a tad indirectly, which is to make Rocket launchers a viable option again. To a lot of people they still are but I can bet that for the one's for whom it's still is are for those that invested the time it needed to become a powerful weapon or that they already mastered all explosives so they need not use them anymore anyway... Therefore unless DE wishes to force players to indirectly stop using rocket launchers for anything but defense, wether you or any one else likes it or not, they need to be tweaked...

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I agree, but increasing the ammunition by 100% wouldn't exactly be listed as a "slight tweak" for me. It's a gamechanger, though I would prefer 50 or so.

It's not really doubling though is it subtracting 500 instead of 520 from the old totals so it is a small tweak, but do you really want to argue semantics when you basically agree with me anyway?

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It's not really doubling though is it subtracting 500 instead of 520 from the old totals so it is a small tweak, but do you really want to argue semantics when you basically agree with me anyway?

 

You have a point, let's not talk about the nitty gritty. But yeah. 40-60 please. 

Give Angstrum at least 100 or 120 but for the love of god reduce the ridiculous base 425 damage.

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in Blacklight, being a tanky class when sitting back and BAR ing everyone in the face meant the difference between life and death when someone snuck up on you... 

 

PS: Please don't talk to me about this game being too hard, -snip-

 

You kids today are spoiled with over nerf and stuff, Nuff Said...

- you're playing Blacklight wrong. every Shooter wrong, infact. i'll explain.

if you're playing as a Strategic Sniper, or a Tactical Sniper - situational awareness is importance #1 for your survival. if you're getting flanked and jumped on while Sniping, you're either not very aware of the things around your Crosshairs, or the person that flanked you is a much better player than you are. without detailed information i assume option 1.

it's even further into sillyness that you get flanked unless you have 250HP with high Armor parts when you can see just about anyone through walls. you know they're coming.

 

i have not once been flanked like that Sniping in Blacklight. Mobility and situational awareness are more important than shooting one more person with your Rifle.

if they're to your privvy, there's even gadgets that will help you make a nest, but i don't really recommend that, since that makes a target location.

 

 

and frankly, due to the lack of a Latency 'cap' on Servers, moving quickly is more beneficial than the opposite. i'll normally have a Ping estimate of 30ms to the Server, while most people are 100-250(with outliers higher than that). they're exploiting the lack of caps to what your Latency is allowed to be on a Server, and using that delay to their significant advantage. 

and with that being the case, i'm far better off moving fairly quickly to avoid taking fire, than to try and brick wall things when the average TTK is a couple seconds.

 

- the Bullet Hell Genre doesn't really relate here. in fact, it's completely unrelated. you're absolutely invulnerable and a complete god in a Bullet Hell Shooter as long as you have memorized what Enemies spawn when, what projectile patterns you're going to encounter, how long it takes this or that Weapon to destroy something, Et Cetera. you memorize small patterns and mesh it into one large plan, and as long as your fingers match your brain, you walk through completely unscathed. that's the point of the game ofcourse - well, the walk through unscathed part atleast, but that's a different matter.

alternatively, if it's not a scripted linear Bullet Hell Shooter, that's where things get more interesting. though personally, most of them are pretty bland to me, they just don't feel satisfying to play. Ring Runner on the other hand, now that's something interesting. the Enemies you encounter throughout the story and the wide array of Combat... makes things, well, interesting. probably worth a look if you like a good story and/or like variety and/or newtonian physics and/or Bullet Hell.

 

- it's fascinating to see that, we're all spoiled with our.... attempts at creating balance.

does that mean those starving children in Africa are starving for game balance, and not food? well, i guess they're out of luck then, because food is easier to come by usually.

 

yes, that was very cynical. but the point remains, that we're spoiled because our Video Games have or are attempting to create balance. i don't really understand that one.

 

I'm still seriously hoping that DE takes into consideration that LMG reload time is too low for guns with 100 rounds in the clip

what are we comparing this to? reality? Beta Drums with 100rds in them can be dropped, and replaced within just a few seconds with today's Firearms, let alone what's supposed to be more than a thousand years in the future.

 

in fact, in terms of Sci-Fi game balance, those Reload times on such LMG's is generally too long, because they aren't very Ammunition Efficient due to their mediocre Damage per shot as it is, so pumping Ammunition is their primary way of killing things. immensely long Reloads would hurt their ice thin role as it is, which is more of a 'i feel like goofing off and wasting Ammo' than it is an effective role.

 

many other Automatic Weapons deal more Damage and are much more Accurate than the LMG's we have :/

(in assumption we're talking about Gorgon and Supra as key examples)

 

simply because a select few are complaining

on the contrary... i would probably call N person a liar if they first time they Equipped Ogris, Penta, and Et Cetera that they didn't think "huh, that much Ammo? sounds unfinished" - or something that loosely translates to their brain recognizing that as basically OP.

 

i think you'd need to be crazy to think that your Rocket Launcher with 540 Ammo was justified when your other Choices were Weapons that dealt many thousands less Damage per Ammo, but had the same amount ;D

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i think you'd need to be crazy to think that your Rocket Launcher with 540 Ammo was justified when your other Choices were Weapons that dealt many thousands less Damage per Ammo, but had the same amount ;D

 

How 12K with an arrow from unpotatoed/unformad dread to a grineer is many thousands less than a rocket from ogris? You think ogris deals 300K splashes? lol

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This is hilarious. I read the first 5 pages or so, but wow, what an interesting read. To tackle the problem...

1) You have Scavenger, Mutation, Ammo Drum, and restores. You are given various options to use, and you don't even need to use them all. Use a Scavenger mod and you and your whole team with launchers can refill their ammo in one pack.

2) 50+ as already said is past the game's balance, and possible without launchers anyways. Doesn't mean it's not just because you can't do it yourself.

3) Take advantage of the tools. OP finds it unacceptable to have to use tons of ammo restores. Why? Because he is lazy and doesn't wanna craft them all or have to use them up. The things are there for you. If you find them inconvenient, it doesn't make them any less valid.

4) Have some actual skill. Drop down and get ammo. Get better builds on your other weapons and clear the other enemies to get to the ammo.

5) You want a weapon with AoE damage and high damage at that, that never runs out of ammo, is pretty accurate, doesn't slow you down, and takes just a bit of time to unleash the full payload? Nah buddy, you can't have everything. Weapons are supposed to have tradeoffs. If you wanted this to exist, then i'd say they did it right. This is why I almost fully agree (read below) with the nerf.

6) Said multiple times as well, but you have other weapons. You have spread secondaries and even more explosive ones in there too. And for melee, you got long reach weapons capable of hitting multiple enemies, or even capable of hitting them at a range. Use them instead of relying on a single weapon. Goes back to "use the tools you are given". Try getting out of the rocket shooting bubble.

7) If big protests like PWE didn't work, this won't either. At all. Not even slightly.

That said, Angstrum should have a lot more and the nerf was harsh on it. Since it needs 3 rockets to really be effective, I would say 60 ammo would be good. Or maybe 40 (42).

How 12K with an arrow from unpotatoed/unformad dread to a grineer is many thousands less than a rocket from ogris? You think ogris deals 300K splashes? lol

The fact it deals AoE damage, multiplying the output by the number of enemies hit. Edited by Maxscart
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The fact it deals AoE damage, multiplying the output by the number of enemies hit.

 

Only if you imagine a pack of units shot from above. If you assume same pack of units in line and shot with dread, the number of units killed will be limited not by the splash as in ogris case, but by the range of dread, which means dread still deals more damage to a properly aligned group of enemies than ogris. Your argument is invalid, in other words.

 

Also, ignis and amprex can deal higher damage to a group of enemies compared to ogris and are 100% safe to the operator.

Edited by SeaUrchins
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Only if you imagine a pack of units shot from above. If you assume same pack of units in line and shot with dread, the number of units killed will be limited not by the splash as in ogris case, but by the range of dread, which means dread still deals more damage to a properly aligned group of enemies than ogris. Your argument is invalid, in other words.

AoE explosion is a 360 degree sphere.  Arrows are a straight line.  You are far more likely to kill more with an explosion. The argument is not invalid.

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AoE explosion is a 360 degree sphere.  Arrows are a straight line.  You are far more likely to kill more with an explosion. The argument is not invalid.

 

Argument is valid because arrow is not blocked by body unlike explosion, I can pin all grineer party running out in defense mission, try same with ogris from same distance and you kill 2-3 who run in the front. 

Edited by SeaUrchins
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I really enjoyed playing this game back in U7.5, but since then my fun went down the hill...

I recognize that having 500+ ammo in my penta, even having 200+ of ogris is way too much, but reducing it to below 100 simply defeats the whole idea of having it, or even of reaching the higher mastery ranks.

And so I call for a >>>>>PROTEST<<<<< of not playing this game.

Unless we stop playing this game and point to our motivation, the game will depend on how the DE's frontmen wake up from their bed.

So do complete the upcoming operations why not, but do not play (don't even log for dayly rewards) beyond that.

Post a message to that effect into the regional chat and do not discuss (nobody discusses with us neither).

I am the 1st of ANTI AMMO NERF PROTESTERS and I want my 100+ penta ammo belt back!!!!!

 

Don't let the door hit you then, and everyone else that does this.

 

We have magazine mods, ammo pool mods, ammo pickup mods, AMMO RESTORE's, hey, ever tried giving a Penta to a Specter? Cause they get infinite ammo.

 

If you expect me to be sad that you can't do 16K PER MULTISHOT to an ENTIRE AREA, you are tripping. I own a Penta with 2 Forma's in it, and find the changes acceptable, we are simply not The Angel Of Death And Destruction with Penta's anymore, the ammo change does NOT stop us from wiping maps, it simply means that now we have to TIME shots and AIM, and not SPAM.

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It's so sad to see that people bring Spectres and Somas and Boltor Primes into the play here. As far as I am concerned this thread is about the launcher ammo nerf, stay on topic please.

 

My idea is to give launchers 35-40 ammo to calm down these people while still keeping the ammo pool low. OR switch the launchers back to rifle ammo. That will solve the 20 max issue.

 

Please keep this discussion in a constructive manner. If we cannot agree atleast be civil. You can't always win.

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With mods i wont get my 100+ rounds, right? The mutation, if you play single, try to move down into the fray and make it out alive (the ancients are very good at knocking you down and basicaly 1hiting you so gl with that).

Now about my adaptibility. I drew a line you did not. I can ask you why are you so servile?

btw, Why The H do you need 100+ ammo?!?
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id say the launchers only need max 40 in ammo as it is sufficient to keep them running, maybe even 30 is enough.

 

wheneither i used Penta/Ogris before the change, my ammo never dropped below the 500

Edited by Aeon66
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Angstrum really need more ammo again. I can shoot it LESS than 8 times full charge..... seriously... not cool. I understand you want to stop people camping endlessly in defense or whatever, but this ruins the gun for everything else too !  I don't want to be forced to use ammo mutation or a stupid carrier because of this, no way. Give back reasonable ammo please.

 

I have blue potato and 5 forma in this gun now useless. Please fix the ammo or offer compensation.

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1) You have Scavenger, Mutation, Ammo Drum, and restores. You are given various options to use, and you don't even need to use them all.

2) 50+ as already said is past the game's balance, and possible without launchers anyways. Doesn't mean it's not just because you can't do it yourself.

3) Take advantage of the tools. OP finds it unacceptable to have to use tons of ammo restores. Why? Because he is lazy and doesn't wanna craft them all or have to use them up. The things are there for you. If you find them inconvenient, it doesn't make them any less valid.

4) Have some actual skill. Drop down and get ammo. Get better builds on your other weapons and clear the other enemies to get to the ammo.

5) You want a weapon with AoE damage and high damage at that, that never runs out of ammo, is pretty accurate, doesn't slow you down, and takes just a bit of time to unleash the full payload? Nah buddy, you can't have everything. Weapons are supposed to have tradeoffs. 

6) Said multiple times as well, but you have other weapons.

I really, really like this post. It hits all the nails on the head.

 

The 50+ comment piques my interest especially.

 

Why?

 

Because there was a time when there were no launchers in the game and people still managed to get up to waves 50, 60, some even got to 90 and 100. Long before the Ogris or any other launcher were added.

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This is hilarious. I read the first 5 pages or so, but wow, what an interesting read. To tackle the problem...

1) You have Scavenger, Mutation, Ammo Drum, and restores. You are given various options to use, and you don't even need to use them all. Use a Scavenger mod and you and your whole team with launchers can refill their ammo in one pack.

2) 50+ as already said is past the game's balance, and possible without launchers anyways. Doesn't mean it's not just because you can't do it yourself.

3) Take advantage of the tools. OP finds it unacceptable to have to use tons of ammo restores. Why? Because he is lazy and doesn't wanna craft them all or have to use them up. The things are there for you. If you find them inconvenient, it doesn't make them any less valid.

4) Have some actual skill. Drop down and get ammo. Get better builds on your other weapons and clear the other enemies to get to the ammo.

5) You want a weapon with AoE damage and high damage at that, that never runs out of ammo, is pretty accurate, doesn't slow you down, and takes just a bit of time to unleash the full payload? Nah buddy, you can't have everything. Weapons are supposed to have tradeoffs. If you wanted this to exist, then i'd say they did it right. This is why I almost fully agree (read below) with the nerf.

6) Said multiple times as well, but you have other weapons. You have spread secondaries and even more explosive ones in there too. And for melee, you got long reach weapons capable of hitting multiple enemies, or even capable of hitting them at a range. Use them instead of relying on a single weapon. Goes back to "use the tools you are given". Try getting out of the rocket shooting bubble.

7) If big protests like PWE didn't work, this won't either. At all. Not even slightly.

That said, Angstrum should have a lot more and the nerf was harsh on it. Since it needs 3 rockets to really be effective, I would say 60 ammo would be good. Or maybe 40 (42).

The fact it deals AoE damage, multiplying the output by the number of enemies hit.

1) A maxed scavenger is a wasted aura for a gun with 20 total sniper rounds as -30 rounds are wasted per pick up and it DOES NOT increase sniper ammo drop chance. DE still has not fixed sniper mutation mod working on snipers yet so until they do SoL... Ammo drum is also a waste because you're sacrificing yet another mod slot for 6 additional rockets, yeah... not worth it.

 

2) Congrats to all those people that can manage without launchers, some of us managed just fine with them...

 

3) or maybe he just doesn't like playing games that force you to play the way the Devs want you to... Crafting tons of ammo restores is not something a lot of us want to do, especially if you're a solo player as that's a major waste of space...

 

4)Tactical camping = Strategy, don't all snipers do this too?... and just because I can use better builds on other weapons doesn't mean I like using them.

 

5) Guns with High AoE and dmg with some ammo efficiency have and will always be normal in the Gaming world, You obviously have never played arena shooters like DOOM, Quake, Unreal Tournament, Team Fortress, Serious Sam, Duke 3D, Shadow Warrior, or even Hard Reset... Last time I checked, Warframe was also a fast pace shooter where you're constantly surrounded by Bad guys and need to make some room, not a tactical slow paced shooter where all you do is walk  around taking cover Like Halo, Gears and Uncharted or a survival horror where ammo SHOULD be a part of the experience like Dead Space... hell, most of these still allow you to pick up a random weapon from the ground once you run out of ammo, can you do that in Warframe, NO!

 

6) When I have to rely on my secondary and melee more than my primary to beat levels or level gear, THEN we've got a problem...

 

7) It can and will work, why shouldn't it...

 

In conclusion, if the Ogris were a BFG 9000 with 40 RNG tracers along with a ball of flame that does 800 base dmg to the first target it hits along with out right killing or seriously hurting any enemy you can see in a 100m cone, THEN 20 ammo would not have been such a big deal... But it's not.. and Without firestorm it's AoE is practically negiligible... giving all rockets 40-50 rounds total without mods is not game breaking, and what right does anyone have to rain of my hobby of blowing crap up in warframe if I mostly keep it to myself is pubbing with them was an issue int he first place...

Edited by R3DBelmont456
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I really, really like this post. It hits all the nails on the head.

 

The 50+ comment piques my interest especially.

 

Why?

 

Because there was a time when there were no launchers in the game and people still managed to get up to waves 50, 60, some even got to 90 and 100. Long before the Ogris or any other launcher were added.

That's true. But it's also irrelevant, since the game (and enemies have been re-balanced since then.

 

I suspect that many [most really] of the pro-launcher-removal side of this argument would whine if Nyx and Valkyr were balanced, since Nyx can literally solo [with no weapons equipped] 100+ waves in ODD without ever being threatened, and Valkyr is Valkyr.

 

I have a Penta and Castanas [R.I.P. Castanas], but didn't use either very often. For now both are retired, since they either have to be completely remodded, lowering their damage despite already having had far less DPS than at least a half dozen other weapons in their respective weapon categories], or just be used a couple of times per mission.

 

If they wanted to make this sort of "Balance", they should have simply made all weapons use only sniper ammo [or at least lumped flamethrowers into the dumpster with the launchers. (And should probably limit the invulnerability frames ability to be permanently immune to damage).

Edited by Alkira
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@R3DBelmont456

 

40-50 rockets is already too much. 

 

25-30 may be an acceptable compromise even if it still draws from the sniper ammo pool. 

 

As for the Angstrum, maybe around 40-60 (but more tending towards the 40-45 side, since 60 ammo is really pushing it). 

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(what's up with the quote function not working atm...)

But anyhow, I wouldn't say that 60 shots on angstrum is pushing it as it gives you a reason to charge it again, 10 charges and you're out of ammo assuming you use a magazine extender, but otherwise 30 shots makes equipping tainted clip totally pointless as it halves your shot count regardless... and having to mod for ammo efficiency would completely kill all Rox launcher's DPS since it means you'd need to sacrifice mod space for ammo mods that don't make much of a difference anyway... It wouldn't be such a bad nerf if it used pistol ammo instead, and rox launchers used rifle ammo, but sadly they don't... making it a double nerf any way you look at it...

Edited by R3DBelmont456
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Wow, only 30 pages so far. Not even enough of the fanboys anymore, i guess. Anyway, i did (yesterday) play the game with the new system and all I say is that I want my 100+ penta/ogris/... ammo belt back!!!!!

Edited by TX10000
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