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Ammo Nerf Protest


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don't all snipers do this too?

 

or even Hard Reset

 

When I have to rely on my secondary and melee more than my primary to beat levels or level gear, THEN we've got a problem...

- only dead Snipers do that. 

 

- in Hard Reset, powerful Explosives were expensive to fire. if you decided you wanted to shoot a Rocket or toss a Singularity Grenade, they were very expensive to fire compared to your other Weapon Options. and since everything shared pools of Ammo, if you used Rockets when you didn't need to (meaning against things that really weren't that dangerous to begin with), you would easily run low on Ammo, and find yourself out of everything, not just out of Explosives. and being low on everything would generally mean death, because Hard Reset wasn't a rail shooter like that ;)

 

and in games such as Quake, i'm preeeety sure that the Machine Gun had an Ammo Pool of 200, while the Rocket Launcher was ~36. and the Rocket Launcher in Quake is 'nerfed' to balance it's ease of use from AoE. it's Damage is only moderately high, meaning you'll be firing atleast a few Rockets to kill one person, most of the time.

whereas Ogris deals pretty much the same Damage a pinpoint Weapon does in a large AoE Radius.

 

- you don't need to rely on the other tools you have available to you more than any particular Tool, but now you do have a reason to actually use some of your other Tools. to combine them together because you're far more powerful with them mixed together than only using one of them.

 

If they took away valkyr's immunity then even loki players would be mad since then they'd have no one to pick them back up that wouldn't drop dead from being shot at by a lvl 40-80 Mob...

that Loki is playing wrong if he needs to be Revived. or just like any other frame that is fairly dependant on Energy, could have gotten it sapped.

 

and there is exactly 0 need for Hysteria to revive someone, even by the time you're fighting Rainbow Auras. Squad cohesion should keep everyone in accessible areas and not running into the middle of the Rainbow Auras. or something like that. because if anyone runs into Rainbow Auras they're going to be dead.

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I personally oppose the change as well, though for me, it isn't a big enough change to start a boycott. I respect the initiative, however, it'll only have an effect if the majority of the player base participates, which I doubt. Good luck none the less.  

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and in games such as Quake, i'm preeeety sure that the Machine Gun had an Ammo Pool of 200, while the Rocket Launcher was ~36. and the Rocket Launcher in Quake is 'nerfed' to balance it's ease of use from AoE. it's Damage is only moderately high, meaning you'll be firing atleast a few Rockets to kill one person, most of the time.

whereas Ogris deals pretty much the same Damage a pinpoint Weapon does in a large AoE Radius.

 

Here's an even better example: Unreal Tournament, a game made by DE. The rocket launcher there only had like 40 shots, the minigun had like 300

 

I'm sure people will be rioting all over the Devstream when it starts, it's already happening now... and everyone is being two-faced about it which is even sadder...

 

I predict exactly nothing will happen.

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- only dead Snipers do that. 

 

- in Hard Reset, powerful Explosives were expensive to fire. if you decided you wanted to shoot a Rocket or toss a Singularity Grenade, they were very expensive to fire compared to your other Weapon Options. and since everything shared pools of Ammo, if you used Rockets when you didn't need to (meaning against things that really weren't that dangerous to begin with), you would easily run low on Ammo, and find yourself out of everything, not just out of Explosives. and being low on everything would generally mean death, because Hard Reset wasn't a rail shooter like that ;)

 

and in games such as Quake, i'm preeeety sure that the Machine Gun had an Ammo Pool of 200, while the Rocket Launcher was ~36. and the Rocket Launcher in Quake is 'nerfed' to balance it's ease of use from AoE. it's Damage is only moderately high, meaning you'll be firing atleast a few Rockets to kill one person, most of the time.

whereas Ogris deals pretty much the same Damage a pinpoint Weapon does in a large AoE Radius.

 

- you don't need to rely on the other tools you have available to you more than any particular Tool, but now you do have a reason to actually use some of your other Tools. to combine them together because you're far more powerful with them mixed together than only using one of them.

 

that Loki is playing wrong if he needs to be Revived. or just like any other frame that is fairly dependant on Energy, could have gotten it sapped.

 

and there is exactly 0 need for Hysteria to revive someone, even by the time you're fighting Rainbow Auras. Squad cohesion should keep everyone in accessible areas and not running into the middle of the Rainbow Auras. or something like that. because if anyone runs into Rainbow Auras they're going to be dead.

you cannot stop people from running into their "DOOM" *pun pun* and insulting them just makes it worse, and as I've said before, the ogris as well as every other explosive weapon requires "Firestorm"(or in the angstrums case, tainted clip) in order for it's AoE to be optimal and that takes up 1/8 Mod slots already, on top of the needed serration and split chamber which cost a ton as well, that's only 5 mod slots you get to play with to optimize your gun for both maximum dmg and efficiency which is impossible now that they're down to 20 rox, and let me give you a scenario in a multiplayer shooter just to show you how ridiculous this over nerf is, you have 100s of waves of enemies to deal with, you're given two choices for a primary, one is an LMG with 100 mag clip and 600 rounds total that can do instant killing headshot dmg, but eats ammo and you'll have to once in awhile look for more, or you get one rocket launcher that instagibs everything, but you're only allowed to carry 6, and once you're out, you're out... What seems like the more logical choice for dealing with hordes of enemies?... Also, UT is strictly PvP so a launcher with 40 rounds is understandable, but Warframe is mostly PvE so then why in Gods name would a launcher that requires mods like every other gun to be at it's most optimal only have 20 shots total?

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Also, UT is strictly PvP so a launcher with 40 rounds is understandable, but Warframe is mostly PvE so then why in Gods name would a launcher that requires mods like every other gun to be at it's most optimal only have 20 shots total?

 

Game balance doesn't just go home when a game is PvE. You talk a bunch about being experienced with games, surely you should know that?

 

If you'd prefer a PvE example, fine. Heavy weapons in ME2 could fire maybe 6 times for the single-fire ones, with no ammo pool. Most assault rifles had hundreds of shots in reserve. Note that this didn't stop heavy weapons from being useful in every single mission.

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This is silly. This entire thread is silly, and it's already at 30 pages.

 

It's been needing to happen for a very long time, ever since the Ogris' inception.

 

Quit tootin' your own horn. You don't speak for the veterans, or the newcomers, you just speak for yourself and a few other noisy birds.

Edited by Vaskadar
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But anyhow, I wouldn't say that 60 shots on angstrum is pushing it as it gives you a reason to charge it again

Well, it is, because a max Trick Mag already gets the Angstrum 57 shots.

 

and having to mod for ammo efficiency would completely kill all Rox launcher's DPS since it means you'd need to sacrifice mod space for ammo mods that don't make much of a difference anyway

Continuing with the Angstrum, 2 elemental mods, Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion, and Lethal Torrent maxes out its damage, leaving 3 slots left, so you can definitely fit in Trick Mag (and Slip Magazine, if you wanted). Spend two forma on the slots for Hornet Strike and Lethal Torrent, and you're set.

 

If you leave out Slip Magazine, the Angstrum will have 19 charges, each firing up to 8 missiles for the price of 3 with multishot in its current state. (Versus 14 charges firing up to 11 shots for the price of 4 with Slip Mag). 

 

And then there's that one slot left over for that mod you seem to like: Tainted Clip. (Trick Mag is better imo, so I'd go with something else)

 

I think it's fine the way it is.

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1. sure, but arguing with dps is then not that usefull cause u can´t compare in warframe weapons with it

 

As I have stated before, to you it may not be that useful because you do not compare weapons in Warframe with DPS, but others do, and the same other people have the same right to do so. They do not have rights to say that your method of comparison is bogus, but you have no right to make the same statement either. Am I standing here telling you that because you do not compare weapons by DPS you are somehow less intelligent than me? No. I am simply acknowledging the fact other players exist, and that other schools of thinking exist.

 

2. why u should put more in then corrosive in?corrosive and blast is enaugh, or did i missunderstand u?

 

It is a general trend that after using mods such as Serration and Multishot and Heavy Caliber the next way to augment damage is through the use of elementals. Of course you can argue that instead of Hellfire and Cryo Rounds I could use Malignant Force and High Voltage. Let's again, for the sake of simplicity assume everyone has the means to beat Tower 4 or the platinum to acquire Malignant Force. Not everyone was around for Tethra mods. I am not one of those players who was around. However, that would also simply be a workaround fix, as the point of those dual stat mods is to augment elemental damage and status chance, which all the explosives, with regards to status chance, either have a paltry amount or none at all.

 

3. i don´t forgett, but then u have to think how easy it is to get the credit´s ( battelpay and or sechura) and the newest player (rank 6 and below) have no access to the launchers

 

The same thing goes both ways. Not everyone has access to Sechura or thinks credits are abysmally easy to get. Of all the people, I should logically be one of the players who makes the statement that credits are easily attainable. The alliance I am in owns Sechura. Everyone has a 9% credit tax, and as an Alliance member, I do not have the same tax. However, I prefer to remember the fact that I am not the only one who plays the game, and that there are players not as far into the game yet. 

 

Ogris and Penta if I recall correctly are mastery rank six. Angstrum is mastery rank four. As much as I love the Mastery Rank system for its uniqueness, rather than a simple "the more things you kill, the higher your arbitrary rank number" system, it is a general consensus that the Master Rank system does not show any indication of player "skill" or veteranship. A friend of mine is Mastery Rank 11, and well on his way to 12, and does not own a single Prime Warframe, does not have a 6 Forma Catalyzed Penta. I am a bit over Mastery Rank 10, less ranked than him, but I have already acquired the parts or have built every single Prime Warframe, I have a Six Forma Catalyzed Penta among other things. His mastery rank may be higher, but I have more "endgame" content, as many people like to call this specific set of gear. It goes to show, Mastery Rank proves nothing beyond the number of weapons you have played with.

 

4. 

 

All your examples are examples of things that would be logical if this game had weapon socialism such as in the Call of Duty form, where most guns are simply reskins with a few changed statistics. As much as we would like to deny, weapons in a linear progressing game are tiered. Other than Amprex and Twin Vipers, most, if not all your examples are from weapons which are clearly for early game, by both their ease of acquiring, low mastery rank requirement (yes, mastery rank requirements for Prime weapons need reworks I understand this point fully so please do not try to pull this card and derail the discussion). Machine Pistols are also an issue to be addressed. Under your argument, I could complain that Flux Rifle is overpowered because it's better than a Spectra. Or that Supra or Gorgon is overpowered because it has greater DPS than my MK-1 Braton.

 

However, Amprex's ammunition economy has been present since its inception and thus all builds that have been created since that time have had that consideration in mind already. Let's assume all players don't care about DPS like you like to assume and can easily fix their build.

 

What other downsides does the Amprex have that is now similar to launchers? Your long range use is limited. Both (now) have sketchy ammunition economy. 

 

Let's step back, and make this argument for the nerf in your favor by returning to pre-nerf status, when the 540 ammunition capacity was the main complaint.

Amprex Drawbacks Prior to U 14.2:

 

-Limited Range

-Horrid Ammunition Economy

 

Launcher Drawbacks Prior to U 14.2

-Limited Range

 

Sounds like the Launchers need a nerf right? Let's look more deeply into this comparison.

 

Amprex:

-Limited Range

-Terrible Ammunition Economy

+One of the best innate damage types, electricity

+AoE/Crowd Control capabilities

+Massive Status Chance

+Sustained single target DPS on par with some of the highest sustained DPS weapons.

 

Launchers:

-Limited Range

-Low sustained DPS on par with other "good" weapons

-Innate Blast damage type, worst for heavy units (ironically when explosives are traditionally used to engage heavy armor)

-Ogris and Angstrum: Disgusting Fire Rate and reload speed complemented by travel time

-Penta: Arced nature of grenades alongside the need for manual detonation, leading in slow fire rate.

+AoE

+Ammunition Economy

 

Now one of these things has a lot more pros than cons as you might imagine. However, we seem to neglect to mention said cons for launchers all the time. Don't believe me? Maybe you'll believe the DPS tables so many people seem to follow blindly like sheep.

 

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Same amount of Forma. Same Catalyst required. 

 

I do agree Angstrum was over the top. But the solution was not to gimp ammunition. That was not the root of the problem. The root of the problem was Angstrum, as a pistol had a base damage way too high. 425 base blast? Are you serious? That's literally stronger than a Penta in your pocket disguised as a secondary. The solution would have been to reduce said ridiculous base damage, not try to stem something else in an effort to fix the bud. It's this base damage that, even with its horrible fire rate, allowed it to achieve ridiculous DPS. When your plants are dying due to dehydration, you do not cut off leaves to reduce evaporation rate, you give it more water.

 

 

See above for the aforementioned "trade-offs" proponents of the nerf always neglect to mention when talking about launchers.

^

cant believe i didnt notice this sooner.....but great argument

 

sums up everything i want to say

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I agree, but increasing the ammunition by 100% wouldn't exactly be listed as a "slight tweak" for me. It's a gamechanger, though I would prefer 50 or so.

^

technically the ammo cap was decreased by 97%.....increasing it from 20 - 40 or 50 wouldnt make it officially a 100% increase since its a few days after its incecption x_x

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^

technically the ammo cap was decreased by 97%.....increasing it from 20 - 40 or 50 wouldnt make it officially a 100% increase since its a few days after its incecption x_x

How many times has DE realized they over did it when they release something new in a patch and just hotfix it to death, they can do the same thing with this too... Ever since this nerf I have yet to see anyone charge their angstrum once, or use more than 1 or 2 shots which they still waste on single targets anyway on any game mode except defense... This is just sad already, considering that the Quanta now outclasses All launchers in AoE dmg, efficiency and that you cannot kill yourself with it's splash dmg... just tells me that DE does these over nerfs to force people to try and stick to their newest creation... until they nerf that too... at this point now people who mained RoX launchers have an excuse to be the ones to Mooch...

Edited by R3DBelmont456
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How many times has DE realized they over did it when they release something new in a patch and just hotfix it to death, they can do the same thing with this too... Ever since this nerf I have yet to see anyone charge their angstrum once, or use more than 1 or 2 shots which they still waste on single targets anyway on any game mode except defense... This is just sad already, considering that the Quanta now outclasses All launchers in AoE dmg, efficiency and that you cannot kill yourself with it's splash dmg... just tells me that DE does these over nerfs to force people to try and stick to their newest creation... until they nerf that too... at this point now people who mained RoX launchers have an excuse to be the ones to Mooch...

 

So you seem to be convinced that the people who wanted the ammo capacity reduced have never touched a launcher and hate everything they stand for, why? I own every weapon that was affected by this all, all catalyzed and forma'd. My playstyle has not changed for any of them, except for not using them to snipe at single enemies anymore.

 

Oh, and there's a lot of people voicing their outrage on the twitch chat right now. Or not.

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not having tainted clip though, you would be sacrificing it's AoE just for the sake of preserving it's power and efficiency, which is not that great if you ask me... they could have at least left the ammo pickups the way they were and avoided these ludicrous bugs that reduce your sniper and bow pool down to 30 shots... and also, I'm an old school player mostly so I didn't really get into the more modern shooters that handicapped players with less guns and less ammo to carry until Halo CE(but even then note that you can still pick up different guns when no ammo for your gun is present...), and I didn't get a chance to play Halo 3 until 2011... and speaking of Halo CE, guess what I used for most of the Library and Guilty spark Missions against the Flood, a Shotgun with 72 shells instead of a Rocket Launcher with 10... Do you honestly think that won't happen in Warframe now?... and please not the "warframe needs to be more Ninja like" argument again...

You can fit in Tainted Clip, Trick Mag, and Slip Mag (But Slip Mag is more of an optional thing) and still preserve its power.

 

Now, in Halo, it's a crazy thing to waste your Rocket Launcher on a cluster of flood spores, or a couple of infected. However, if there's 10 heavy-class foes in a group, that's when the rocket launcher shines. You can't really compare how useful two weapons are when they fulfill different roles.

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Not mandatory. Useful, but not mandatory.

 

Sure, you can choose to use your other weapons.

If you're to get good use from it, you need amo mutation. Same way you need serration, etc.

 

 

And I see VAAAAUUUUN is here yelling at everyone who dares think 40 amo would be better.

Edited by DawnFalcon
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And I see VAAAAUUUUN is here yelling at everyone who dares think 40 amo would be better.

 

Cross-thread trolling? That's a new low, don't you think?

 

I agree. Up to 40 keeps in the spirit of the change without being so severe. 

 

The ammo system needs some pretty heavy changes IMO, but this isn't really the thread for that.

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Cross-thread trolling? That's a new low, don't you think?

 

Noting as an aide you're attacking people in the same way here? Oh right, of course you object. And you need to make 101 posts about it, objecting because *I* think 40 amo is more reasonable.

 

And of course you don't like the spirit of the game. And?

Edited by DawnFalcon
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Ammo reduction for launchers was something I'd wanted for quite some time. Sorry to say it but I disagree with your protest. Considering how powerful the Penta, Ogris and Angstrum are, letting them have 540 (or in the Angstrum's case hundreds) of spare rounds was just downright silly. I mean, in other games with rocket launchers and grenade launchers, how much spare ammo for these high powered weapons do they let you have? Because it's usually less than 10. Maybe up to 20.

 

Sorry to say it but 50 would have been acceptable.

 

The changes made are just awful, just in the name of whiners (of any sort).

 

We're playing a game of Si-Fi, not a simulator, so don't compare it to any other game.

 

People these days lacks of imagination and creativity.

 

I'm not playing WarFrame to have a taste of "déjà vu" but for the fresh air it was delivering to me.

 

For simulation i'll go for Arma 3... The way those changes are makes me think of Dice's idiocy (Yes, the one responsible for BF3 & BF4).

 

What the heck is wrong with having a lot of destructive weapons and destroying powers when facing a horde of mad aliens?

 

For WarFrame sake, don't turn this game in another pale copy of any existing S#&$.

 

I'm sorry to say it like that, but those who whined about the launchers are just poor jealous people and don't deserve to be heard.

 

Because why would you want having funny weapons nerfed if it isn't for your personnal feelings?

 

Are you so bad that you wouldn't be able to leave a session if someone is not on your taste?

 

Are you so bad that you can't create private session and invite selected people to achieve a mission the way you want?

 

Are you so bad that you have to ask for a global nerf just because YOU don't like it? What about others?

 

I don't get it guys, you're ruining the fun of a lot of people ONLY because you felt yourself... What already? Too weak? Too bad?

 

What's the point guys? Do you feel that right? I don't.

 

"Blah Blah this weapon is so strong i feel myself ashamed because of my mediocrity?"

 

 

I feel sorry for you guys, you're missing the fun factor and ruining others experience just because of your brain-limited imagination.

 

 

For your personnal info, the Penta and the Ogris aren't weapons that i would take in high level missions or in T4 since YOU CAN'T RELY on it WHILE FACING multiples opponents. That' would be ridiculous AND $&*&*#(%&.

 

Now they're both as usefull as the scrubbing brush of my WC. Gratz! Really.

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Tbh I think the Penta, Ogris, Torid, Angstrum, etc. Should be removed from the game. Back when I joined in U7, things were a lot more...ninja.

No, if they decide to remove all guns from this game, i would delete the game off my computer because that what got me inerested in this game, Guns and blowing stuff up. It just become another Ninja game with no guns and there enough of those as it is. I don't need another Ninja Gaiden etc.

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-snip-

Most people who own launchers actually advocated for a reduction in ammo (like myself). If not, they at least knew it was coming.

 

I feel sorry for you guys, you're missing the fun factor and ruining others experience just because of your brain-limited imagination.

I feel the opposite is true if you enjoy just blowing things up again and again, because there is a point when it gets boring (like after 5 missions).

 

Have you even tried the Ogris out yet?

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Most people who own launchers actually advocated for a reduction in ammo (like myself). If not, they at least knew it was coming.

 

I feel the opposite is true if you enjoy just blowing things up again and again, because there is a point when it gets boring (like after 5 missions).

 

Have you even tried the Ogris out yet?

Well it hasn't gotten boring to me, and what's the point of carrying a launcher around if you're not even gonna be encouraged to fire it at all... there's Way to many factors of this nerf other than "IT's still OP" that a lot of people are seriously not taking into consideration... Especially how the mod formula's work and how you only have 8 mod slots total to optimize your gun...

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-snip-

 

I totally agree. Anything else is just bogus hate-mongering.  

 

There are plenty of OP weapons, and frames - so why is it then that launchers got targeted? Oh, it's because the Penta is easy for low mastery players to acquire (butt-hurt veterans anyone?)... but if the Penta gets nerfed then it's only fair for all launchers to get nerfed. 

 

How bout that?

 

Perhaps this is just the beginning of a new warframe era - one in which DE steadily nerfs the crap out of everything because we all know what Warframe needs right now is extreme difficulty; and if that's what you want for this game - than your are just as self-entitled as any would be anti-nerf. The reason being is, you are projecting your own selfish expectations onto this game. Sure 540 is a ludicrous number, but 20 is also. 

 

Of course, a slight boost in launcher ammo would certainly be a game breaker. It would just be downright terrible. *sarcasm* 

Edited by YourBusDriver
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Sorry to say it but 50 would have been acceptable.

 

The changes made are just awful, just in the name of whiners (of any sort).

 

We're playing a game of Si-Fi, not a simulator, so don't compare it to any other game.

 

People these days lacks of imagination and creativity.

 

I'm not playing WarFrame to have a taste of "déjà vu" but for the fresh air it was delivering to me.

 

For simulation i'll go for Arma 3... The way those changes are makes me think of Dice's idiocy (Yes, the one responsible for BF3 & BF4).

 

What the heck is wrong with having a lot of destructive weapons and destroying powers when facing a horde of mad aliens?

 

For WarFrame sake, don't turn this game in another pale copy of any existing S#&$.

 

I'm sorry to say it like that, but those who whined about the launchers are just poor jealous people and don't deserve to be heard.

 

Because why would you want having funny weapons nerfed if it isn't for your personnal feelings?

 

Are you so bad that you wouldn't be able to leave a session if someone is not on your taste?

 

Are you so bad that you can't create private session and invite selected people to achieve a mission the way you want?

 

Are you so bad that you have to ask for a global nerf just because YOU don't like it? What about others?

 

I don't get it guys, you're ruining the fun of a lot of people ONLY because you felt yourself... What already? Too weak? Too bad?

 

What's the point guys? Do you feel that right? I don't.

 

"Blah Blah this weapon is so strong i feel myself ashamed because of my mediocrity?"

 

 

I feel sorry for you guys, you're missing the fun factor and ruining others experience just because of your brain-limited imagination.

 

 

For your personnal info, the Penta and the Ogris aren't weapons that i would take in high level missions or in T4 since YOU CAN'T RELY on it WHILE FACING multiples opponents. That' would be ridiculous AND $&*&*#(%&.

 

Now they're both as usefull as the scrubbing brush of my WC. Gratz! Really.

 

I dont understand why people try to make a point with the, "in other games," idea because in all those other games the launchers are extra/special weapons that come in their own slots and are not the main or secondary weapons.

 

You cannot make a comparison to launchers in other games when in other games you have a full set of weapons PLUS a launcher.

If this game had a full set of weapons PLUS a launcher slot  and that slot had you carrying 540 ammo then i think everyone would agree with the change but this not what we got there. When you put on a launcher now what you are doing is making your primary slot into a secondary slot and your secondary a main. Essentially, the main slot becomes that extra/special slot and you weapon set shrinks by one.

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-snip-

 

This is also an excellent point. Many players are attempting to argue that launchers should be viewed as auxiliary weapons. This makes no sense. Launchers should be allowed to stand on their own as primary systems. The reason you carry melee, and a secondary is so that you can diversify your equipped damage types, not so that you can compensate for an overly specialized weapon serving as your primary.

Edited by YourBusDriver
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I dont understand why people try to make a point with the, "in other games," idea because in all those other games the launchers are extra/special weapons that come in their own slots and are not the main or secondary weapons.

 

You cannot make a comparison to launchers in other games when in other games you have a full set of weapons PLUS a launcher.

If this game had a full set of weapons PLUS a launcher slot  and that slot had you carrying 540 ammo then i think everyone would agree with the change but this not what we got there. When you put on a launcher now what you are doing is making your primary slot into a secondary slot and your secondary a main. Essentially, the main slot becomes that extra/special slot and you weapon set shrinks by one.

After seeing the newly buffed attica using a thunderbolt mod, and the reactions to all the people who were wanting the Rocket launcher to be nerfed and are still defending the severity of it but defending how broken the attica is now, I must WHOLEHARTEDLY disagree with all of you now...

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