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Ammo Nerf Protest


TX10000
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when rockets used to have 540 ammo... YES, I can see that being a problem, but when the attica has 540 rounds and does only 1/3rd of that dmg based on RNG (not counting elemental procs), and all lauchers being able to do what you state, Again based on RNG (without counting additional procs since Blast are it's default dmg anyway), with only having 20 shots, which weapon is then the most logical one to use... you also have to remember that the attica does other base types of damage while's all lauchers do Blast only until otherwise fixed... and Blast can be tanked by a large portion of strong enemies due to the penalty against ferrite, In fact Blast is really most effective against one type of enemy, MOAs...  And it sucks against bosses... Taking any launcher to a Boss fight is practically ASKING your @$$ to be handed to you on a silver platter...

 

Still launchers. They're more reliable and provide greater damage-on-target than a t-bolt Attica. Really, ammo count is not as huge a deal as you make it out to be.

 

And oh, you mean launchers aren't the most effective weapon in every situation? Wow, it's almost like nothing's changed at all...

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Still launchers. They're more reliable and provide greater damage-on-target than a t-bolt Attica. Really, ammo count is not as huge a deal as you make it out to be.

 

And oh, you mean launchers aren't the most effective weapon in every situation? Wow, it's almost like nothing's changed at all...

Except that we woke up to the cold hard truth the hard way and are being forced to not use launchers anymore due to them no longer being practical anyway...

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Except that we woke up to the cold hard truth the hard way and are being forced to not use launchers anymore due to them no longer being practical anyway...

 

Someone is forcing us not to use launchers? Huh, every defense/survival mission I've played in the last couple days has had at least two launchers in it...maybe someone should go tell those guys to stop using launchers? They didn't seem to get the message.

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Someone is forcing us not to use launchers? Huh, every defense/survival mission I've played in the last couple days has had at least two launchers in it...maybe someone should go tell those guys to stop using launchers? They didn't seem to get the message.

while true that people will still use them for defense/survival mostly because they don't wanna simply trash what they've invested in, I guarantee you that if they do use it for any other modes, they will either use their melee 90% of the time, and fire 2 or 3 rockets, or none at all... heck, I doubt they'll ever use them for solo missions again...

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while true that people will still use them for defense/survival mostly because they don't wanna simply trash what they've invested in, I guarantee you that if they do use it for any other modes, they will either use their melee 90% of the time, and fire 2 or 3 rockets, or none at all... heck, I doubt they'll ever use them for solo missions again...

 

Huh. News to me. I had no problem in a solo exterminate with my Ogris earlier today. I ran out of ammo once, but a single spin attack got me right back up to full. I was using the Ogris to wipe out groups hanging in doors and behind cover, and then swapping to my secondary for ranges where the splash damage would normally have killed me. Most of my kills were from the Ogris too. 

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Well as many missions as I've ran so far I still say that launchers are really no longer a viable option until they give them a bit more ammo, as other weapons are just far less risky to use than launchers are now, too many downsides to really justify it's use in all modes, other than the exceptions...

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Huh. News to me. I had no problem in a solo exterminate with my Ogris earlier today. I ran out of ammo once, but a single spin attack got me right back up to full. I was using the Ogris to wipe out groups hanging in doors and behind cover, and then swapping to my secondary for ranges where the splash damage would normally have killed me. Most of my kills were from the Ogris too. 

 

What Ext mission was it? Mercury where you get 28 enemies to kill?

Try to run Ext T3 to see how far you get without mutator and carrier with you solo.

Even with good rng on your side you will be switching a lot.

Edited by Mak_Gohae
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Well as many missions as I've ran so far I still say that launchers are really no longer a viable option until they give them a bit more ammo, as other weapons are just far less risky to use than launchers are now, too many downsides to really justify it's use in all modes, other than the exceptions...

 

That's on you, not the amount of ammo. As with most weapons there are upsides that counter the downsides.

 

What Ext mission was it? Mercury where you get 28 enemies to kill?

Try to run Ext T3 to see how far you get without mutator and carrier with you solo.

Even with good rng on your side you will be switching a lot.

 

T2. 138 enemies. I also ran a T3 ext with some mates using my Penta, a similar result. Only ran out of ammo once. Launchers are so far from "not viable" it's almost funny. A doubling of the ammo capacity would solve that one instance of running out of ammo though.

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That's on you, not the amount of ammo. As with most weapons there are upsides that counter the downsides.

 

 

T2. 138 enemies. I also ran a T3 ext with some mates using my Penta, a similar result. Only ran out of ammo once. Launchers are so far from "not viable" it's almost funny. A doubling of the ammo capacity would solve that one instance of running out of ammo though.

We can Hypothesize and do test run after test run with many observations... I can think of many scenarios and many ways to test all this (you also forget that simply saying what you do doesn't make it 100% credible), and the results will all still be the same, you're either gonna use your launchers very little times that you're better off equipping another more reliable primary, OR you equip a secondary that's SO good that you can just lug the launcher around and never need to use it until you feel like it, and even if the launcher is ALL you use during certain missions, you will at one point run out of ammo and be forced to draw back to your sword until you find a clip or two... a primary that is used less than a secondary or melee may as well not be a primary anymore...

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We can Hypothesize and do test run after test run with many observations... I can think of many scenarios and many ways to test all this (you also forget that simply saying what you do doesn't make it 100% credible), and the results will all still be the same, you're either gonna use your launchers very little times that you're better off equipping another more reliable primary, OR you equip a secondary that's SO good that you can just lug the launcher around and never need to use it until you feel like it, and even if the launcher is ALL you use during certain missions, you will at one point run out of ammo and be forced to draw back to your sword until you find a clip or two... a primary that is used less than a secondary or melee may as well not be a primary anymore...

 

Wait...what? So you just said evidence people give without backing it up isn't accurate, and then made the totally baseless statement that everyone is going to use launchers less? Am I missing something here?

 

In my experience with the new launchers in fixed-spawn void missions, it's easy to kill most enemies with your launcher and not run out of ammo. The times I played I only ran out about once a run, and I easily filled back up. A change to 40 ammo would eliminate this entirely. Now, let's compare...before nerf: launchers deal damage, didn't run out of ammo. After nerf(fixed): launchers deal damage, still don't run out of ammo. What's the difference? Why would anyone use a launcher less if it functions exactly the same with 40 ammo or 540 ammo?

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Already not playing a game long before ammo nerf. This game's development is going nowhere...

 

Wait...what? So you just said evidence people give without backing it up isn't accurate, and then made the totally baseless statement that everyone is going to use launchers less? Am I missing something here?

 

In my experience with the new launchers in fixed-spawn void missions, it's easy to kill most enemies with your launcher and not run out of ammo. The times I played I only ran out about once a run, and I easily filled back up. A change to 40 ammo would eliminate this entirely. Now, let's compare...before nerf: launchers deal damage, didn't run out of ammo. After nerf(fixed): launchers deal damage, still don't run out of ammo. What's the difference? Why would anyone use a launcher less if it functions exactly the same with 40 ammo or 540 ammo?

RNG, sherlock. You might get ammo drop or you won't. Do we need more rng ?

Edited by Unibot
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You're talking to Belmont. The guy who plays selfish tanks because he doesn't comprehend situational awareness, mobility or support skills. The guy with no demonstrated reading comprehension nor any capacity for honest self-reflection nor critical thought. The guy who ascribes malice to DE's every incompetence. The guy who thinks ninjas are something other than an exaggerated romance.

 

I don't care for the opinion of a guy who can't beat a basic system mission with 25 explosive rounds. And the reasons why he can't do it have been well established by now, not least of which because he's a spammer and has admitted as much in his own words. He won't compromise until he can literally stand on a pillar without a Mutation mod and left-click all day without ever coming down. If you force him to compromise on this, then it's slavery. (Yes, he actually said this.)

 

Belmont lives in Belmont world. You're not getting through to him.

Edited by PlayGooYa
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T2. 138 enemies. I also ran a T3 ext with some mates using my Penta, a similar result. Only ran out of ammo once. Launchers are so far from "not viable" it's almost funny. A doubling of the ammo capacity would solve that one instance of running out of ammo though.

 

Solo Ext and ran out of ammo once? How much Forma did you have on that thing and did you coral them all into groups.

This feat can only accomplished if you one-shoot every single unit you shot at and did not ever missed a target.

 

And with "some mates" anyone can sit back and take it easy, but that's really not the point of the primary slot weapon.

Edited by Mak_Gohae
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1) A maxed scavenger is a wasted aura for a gun with 20 total sniper rounds as -30 rounds are wasted per pick up and it DOES NOT increase sniper ammo drop chance. DE still has not fixed sniper mutation mod working on snipers yet so until they do SoL... Ammo drum is also a waste because you're sacrificing yet another mod slot for 6 additional rockets, yeah... not worth it.

2) Congrats to all those people that can manage without launchers, some of us managed just fine with them...

3) or maybe he just doesn't like playing games that force you to play the way the Devs want you to... Crafting tons of ammo restores is not something a lot of us want to do, especially if you're a solo player as that's a major waste of space...

4)Tactical camping = Strategy, don't all snipers do this too?... and just because I can use better builds on other weapons doesn't mean I like using them.

5) Guns with High AoE and dmg with some ammo efficiency have and will always be normal in the Gaming world, You obviously have never played arena shooters like DOOM, Quake, Unreal Tournament, Team Fortress, Serious Sam, Duke 3D, Shadow Warrior, or even Hard Reset... Last time I checked, Warframe was also a fast pace shooter where you're constantly surrounded by Bad guys and need to make some room, not a tactical slow paced shooter where all you do is walk around taking cover Like Halo, Gears and Uncharted or a survival horror where ammo SHOULD be a part of the experience like Dead Space... hell, most of these still allow you to pick up a random weapon from the ground once you run out of ammo, can you do that in Warframe, NO!

6) When I have to rely on my secondary and melee more than my primary to beat levels or level gear, THEN we've got a problem...

7) It can and will work, why shouldn't it...

In conclusion, if the Ogris were a BFG 9000 with 40 RNG tracers along with a ball of flame that does 800 base dmg to the first target it hits along with out right killing or seriously hurting any enemy you can see in a 100m cone, THEN 20 ammo would not have been such a big deal... But it's not.. and Without firestorm it's AoE is practically negiligible... giving all rockets 40-50 rounds total without mods is not game breaking, and what right does anyone have to rain of my hobby of blowing crap up in warframe if I mostly keep it to myself is pubbing with them was an issue int he first place...

1) As I said, you are given the tools to offset its negatives. You choose not to use them in favor of other things. That's what the build is about. If you don't find it worth it, that's a shame, but it will always be there.

2) And? As I said, the tools are there. They're not forcing it, they are there to aid you. Don't wanna use them? Your loss. The pulses of the ammo packs are so sparse that you can shoot out a few rockets and renew the whole capacity with each one.

3) Point being, you don't need launchers to do that, when the OP was claiming so. Are they efficient? Yes. Only way? No.

4) Yes, they do. But sometimes you have to get off your camping spot to the other things that are happening around the map, which is mainly loot. I don't see camping as a bad thing in this game, only if you refuse to do anything but that. Here I am seeing people who want to stay in the same spot for hours.

5) Last I checked, you didn't get modifications or huge, 500+ pools of ammo on those games, which I have played. Not to mention in each of those games, they have disadvantages. The vanilla Rocket Launcher in TF2 is inaccurate, slows you down, and shoots slow moving projectiles. The Ogris has none of that, plus a low ammo capacity. Warframe is fast paced, but it doesn't mean you have to spam rockets in order to counter that. Here you can pick up globs of ammo that drop. It's pretty similar.

6) I didn't say you have to rely more on it. I said use them when your Rocket Launcher is out, and you will eventually get the ammo back. Or you can use the Rocket Launcher as a situational weapon and reserve it for huge packs, not for everything you see. As, you know, they are meant to be used (the fact they can be used in other ways doesn't change this). They aren't made for hitting every enemy as if they were bullets.

7) Because it's small, insignificant to most, and most are in disagreement. I'll take you on a bet that the actual protest will not work, any day.

And also, Firestorm. You are given it, it's there, use it. Mods are there to do whatever you want. Tough to complain on the absence of something when you can counter it with another thing. Oh, you want more power instead of having to add a mod to make it good? Priorities. You can't have it all.

Edited by Maxscart
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How i see the topic of ammo mutation? It does not help.

Not only does this force ppl to forma their weps to accomodate for this mod and the like, but the current users see it as a strong limit on their already weak dmg output, and when that swarm of ancients comes you bet each point of dmg counts.

It also makes you dependant on ammo drops! Drop control of which is completely out of reach of ppl in this game. And so it should be completely dismissed as a temporary solution at best.

Only what is home does count for me - in this game's missions it means your wep's mag 1st and foremost.

So make it an extra nightmare mode challenge - reduction to 1/4 of ammo -, but do not force all ppl to your ideas of "balance".

Edited by TX10000
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Also these comparisons; What you're saying is you want warframe to become tf2; Then there's still a lot of work to do, maybe start with the silly hats, ppl really like that.

However I haven't come to warframe to play another boring tf2 (or w/e) clone.

Edited by TX10000
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@TX10000

First of all, go read up on a strawman. You will really need to know what it is when you get out of your bubble and make actual arguments. I didn't say. I wanted this to be like TF2, I did the comparison with TF2 because it's, from that list, the biggest and most popular game at the moment. My point was, weapons have OFFSETS. DISADVANTAGES. They aren't made to have it all. PvE doesn't mean you can throw balance out the window.

As for ammo, you are given the tools to offset this balance. Oh boohoo, you will now be able to use one mod less on what was and still is an extremely powerful gun. You called it weak on its damage, and that made me laugh. Now you'll actually have to mod it for it's disadvantages. How could they?

If you don't wanna forma your weapon or don't want to put these mods on it, it just tells me you want a weapon with everything given to you, that you don't have to work, wait, and build for.

Ammo drops are guaranteed every few kills. The type isn't. But if you use mutation, then all drops will be beneficial. Ammo drops are temporary solutions to running out of ammo? Might as well remove ammo capacity as a whole then. LOWER CAPACITY DOESN'T NEED A SOLUTION, IT NEEDS TO COUNTER ITS OFFSETS. That's what modding is for.

It's almost as if you've never used an ammo mutation. Some weapons need them to be efficient and constant, or you can take that same weapon and just give it a higher damage but sacrifice it being so constant. In my experience with using it on plenty of weapons, which I normally quickly run out of ammo, I've gone to constantly being topped off. So yes, it does help. Give it a try before claiming it as ineffective.

We all have different ideas of balance. But a gun that has everything sure isn't balance, no matter in what context you put it.

Edited by Maxscart
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@TX10000

First of all, go read up on a strawman. You will really need to know what it is when you get out of your bubble and make actual arguments. I didn't say. I wanted this to be like TF2, I did the comparison with TF2 because it's, from that list, the biggest and most popular game at the moment. My point was, weapons have OFFSETS. DISADVANTAGES. They aren't made to have it all. PvE doesn't mean you can throw balance out the window.

As for ammo, you are given the tools to offset this balance. Oh boohoo, you will now be able to use one mod less on what was and still is an extremely powerful gun. You called it weak on its damage, and that made me laugh. Now you'll actually have to mod it for it's disadvantages. How could they?

If you don't wanna forma your weapon or don't want to put these mods on it, it just tells me you want a weapon with everything given to you, that you don't have to work, wait, and build for.

Ammo drops are guaranteed every few kills. The type isn't. But if you use mutation, then all drops will be beneficial. Ammo drops are temporary solutions to running out of ammo? Might as well remove ammo capacity as a whole then. LOWER CAPACITY DOESN'T NEED A SOLUTION, IT NEEDS TO COUNTER ITS OFFSETS. That's what modding is for.

It's almost as if you've never used an ammo mutation. Some weapons need them to be efficient and constant, or you can take that same weapon and just give it a higher damage but sacrifice it being so constant. In my experience with using it on plenty of weapons, which I normally quickly run out of ammo, I've gone to constantly being topped off. So yes, it does help. Give it a try before claiming it as ineffective.

We all have different ideas of balance. But a gun that has everything sure isn't balance, no matter in what context you put it.

 

You jump to many assumption, the 1st is that I was actualy talking to you.

I used to use (before this protest anyway) other weps (even to the very last) besides penta/ogris/... and have used forma (+ not just 1) on my penta and other weps as well (mainly those that looked promising [penta/ogris/etc. looked like such btw {which further reinforces my argument - the motivation <of getting them>}])

What else remains ... oh yes the ammo mutation, 1st not everybody has it. Secondly, I have used such guns (that really need it [+ with this mod mounted]) and ultimately painted them all into pink (so I won't use them by accident, nothing wrong with the colour itself), not only do they underperform, I learned not to depend on them, taking such a wep as a primary? Not a chance (well only if you need to progress in mastery which now has become pointless). Now, this nerf means I can paint my penta/ogris/etc... pink as well. And is all about one of my original arguments - no point of getting them.

Edited by TX10000
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this protest is not needed,

use ammo mutations and your side arm.

 

 

DE is in the right path of balancing.

although the penta needs around 30 ammo reserves. its a smaller launcher

same for the angstrum i guess

but thats just my opinion

Edited by Ritchel
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&nbsp;

this protest is not needed,

use ammo mutations and your side arm.

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

DE is in the right path of balancing.

although the penta needs around 30 ammo reserves. its a smaller launcher

same for the angstrum i guess

but thats just my opinion

&nbsp;

Judging just from what you've written, you'd be right about this not being needed but only if the ammo cap went up to 30 (just to clarify - i would still like those 100+).

Edited by TX10000
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few problems that this patch raised:

launchers now draw from sniper pool - rarest ammo in game where even 70 ammo is not enough

unintentional forcing to use ammo mutation - lackluster band aid made of salt

 

the problem is not just max ammo but the speed at which it can be replenished in % of max pool

where the % of ammo replenished must be at least twice as big as ammo consumed per shot. Though this point is obviously fulfilled per box

considering that not every mob drops ammo for snipers but only one of 5-10 and taking into assumption you kill 2 with one shot we need 10 ammo per mob. This point is obviously fulfilled too but it's a very close call - you kill at least 3 mobs per shot or you are out of ammo - that's where the problem is. Its fine for swarming infested but suicide on scattered grineer

i'd say max ammo must be at 40 minimum and be further investigated on being enough cause coming from my experience 70 sniper ammo is not enough (but that was snipers and bows experience even with bow-killing multiple enemies)

 

that's what i think at the moment

Edited by Pro3Display
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few problems that this patch raised:

launchers now draw from sniper pool - rarest ammo in game where even 70 ammo is not enough

unintentional forcing to use ammo mutation - lackluster band aid made of salt

 

the problem is not just max ammo but the speed at which it can be replenished in % of max pool

where the % of ammo replenished must be at least twice as big as ammo consumed per shot. Though this point is obviously fulfilled per box

considering that not every mob drops ammo for snipers but only one of 5-10 and taking into assumption you kill 2 with one shot we need 10 ammo per mob. This point is obviously fulfilled too but it's a very close call - you kill at least 3 mobs per shot or you are out of ammo - that's where the problem is. Its fine for swarming infested but suicide on scattered grineer

i'd say max ammo must be at 40 minimum and be further investigated on being enough cause coming from my experience 70 sniper ammo is not enough (but that was snipers and bows experience even with bow-killing multiple enemies)

 

that's what i think at the moment

40 ammo is plenty, even with sniper ammo.

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Guest Shibboleet

We can Hypothesize and do test run after test run with many observations... I can think of many scenarios and many ways to test all this (you also forget that simply saying what you do doesn't make it 100% credible), and the results will all still be the same, you're either gonna use your launchers very little times that you're better off equipping another more reliable primary, OR you equip a secondary that's SO good that you can just lug the launcher around and never need to use it until you feel like it, and even if the launcher is ALL you use during certain missions, you will at one point run out of ammo and be forced to draw back to your sword until you find a clip or two... a primary that is used less than a secondary or melee may as well not be a primary anymore...

The new ammo pool + ammo type is fine even for late game Survival + Defense. This is coming from someone that values ammo efficiency over anything else when it comes to long runs, because it's what matters most.

 

 

Check my profile if you are unaware of who I am + credibility.

Edited by Shibboleet
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Locking while I look through and clean the thread, might have to close it if there is too many off topic discussions

 

 

Actually this thread has seemed to veered into off topic arguments  and other unproductiveness a while ago. Going to keep it locked, please leave ammo feedback in one of the other more constructive ammo threads.

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