Before You Ask For An Auction House, Think...

[Semshol]

-snip-

 

OP, another thing to take into consideration is bidding. What if every item HAD to have a minimum bid, a buyout price and it is all done within 36 hours instead of 24? (to match with timezones etc) this could sort of balance out the market (in my mind anyway) :/

 

I considered the minimum bid, but my argument against that is that DE will then be dictating the prices and we'll have a lot of whiners going on about it in the forums until it is removed.

 

So I kind of want to save them the hassle and just impose an auction limit, as opposed to a minimum bid with unlimited auctions, that would just screw a lot of things up.

 

So to summarise, minimum prices can happen, but the question is who should decide? Buyers will want the low, sellers will want the high, farmers don't care, it's all profit anyway. So yeaaah, a bit hard to decide on that.

 

I will however add 36 hours instead of 24 to the main post as an alternative :)

[dzonatan]

Yup, and once everyone starts doing it. That is when stability issues happen. "It's your own damn fault", but guess what, we farmers are willing to accept the loss. Farmers don't lose out. I am a farmer, I will never lose out. But I am a fair person and I am thinking for the majority of the community that believes everything will be fine, which it won't, not unless some limits come into play.

 

Then what's the problem?

 

A "ruined" economy within a massively multiplayer online game involves high ranking items and what is "hot" being sold for very low prices.

 

A free market regulates itself. If a hi-power item sells for very low price then perhaps the problem lies in the items accesability? If its easy to get then naturally everyone can get it. As such everyone will want to sell it.

 

Say a new prime is released, usually when that happens it will be a "hot" prime, normally each part is sold for around 100p (depending) for those really eager to get their hands on them, as time passes and more people acquire the item the pricing begins to stabilize, that does not mean it will be low however. i.e Maxed Blind Rage going for 300<->400p is a fairly stable price that will not change unless something happens.

 

Price of an item is decided upon how much someone is willing to pay for it.

Price of an item is decided upon how much someone is willing to sell it for.

 

When it is unstable and the economy is ruined, the same Maxed Blind Rage goes for 200-100 and even 50 just because people want to sell it as fast as possible and being able to do so gradually decreases the overall pricing of a powerful item. With the current trading system this doesn't happen due to how much time it actually takes to sell something (finding a willing buyer, negotiating, closing deal etc), however with an AH where you can usually find the item you want to buy really quickly there is a very unlikely event that prices remain high, a buyer comes in and goes for cheapest price obviously so the sellers go cheaper and cheaper.

 

And what is wrong with that?

 

Runescape is a fine example of this, before the GE (Grand Exchange, auction house) players traded freely and prices remained dictated by the community, but with the GE the prices dropped severely due to every seller trying to sell quick and every buyer trying to buy cheap. Due to the amount of items however and slight adjustments the developer made every now and then the market would rise and fall, but that is not certain that it will happen here.

 

And what is wrong with that?

 

More example and one that is live and on-going is the Steam Market, when a new item comes out, initial sell is say £120, then another person comes in to sell at £60 and it drops down like that a lot, the price never stabilizes it all matters on amount of sellers and buyers which is keeping expensive items expensive.

 

Or maybe... just maybe, Someone who posted that item for 120 pounds demanded too much?

Maybe... just maybe, Someone who posted that item for 60 pounds made a fair offer?

Edited August 20, 2014 by dzonatan

[noveltyhero]

I considered the minimum bid, but my argument against that is that DE will then be dictating the prices and we'll have a lot of whiners going on about it in the forums until it is removed.

 

So I kind of want to save them the hassle and just impose an auction limit, as opposed to a minimum bid with unlimited auctions, that would just screw a lot of things up.

 

So to summarise, minimum prices can happen, but the question is who should decide? Buyers will want the low, sellers will want the high, farmers don't care, it's all profit anyway. So yeaaah, a bit hard to decide on that.

 

I will however add 36 hours instead of 24 to the main post as an alternative :)

The minimum bid is an option,

 

I place an item for selling, I must place a minimum price (average displayed, which is what the average selling price for that item is, based on community) that the item is sold for :/

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Then what's the problem?

There is none.  You will sell more items for less plat a piece but make more over all.

[cesmode]

You can already buy items for plat.  Trading just allows free players to get access to the same items as paying players and makes DE more money.

 

Can you buy a Loki prime systems with plat? Or Rhino prime Chassis?  Or that elusive Frost Blueprint?

 

No.

 

All you can do with plat on the market is buy the actual warframe or weapon straight up for like 200+plat.  

 

This is not an MMO.  There is no need for an auction house.  Theres little to no need for any movement toward MMO socalization in general.  The core of this game is shooting stuff, blowing stuff up, acquiring a ton of stuff, and building it.  Not the MMO experience, because it isn't an MMO.

 

No need for MMO elements to make it into this game.  Please...Ive been playing MMOs for a decade and I need at least one game that doesn't try to infuse MMO elements into it.

Edited August 20, 2014 by cesmode

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Can you buy a Loki prime systems with plat? Or Rhino prime Chassis?  Or that elusive Frost Blueprint?

 

No.

 

All you can do with plat on the market is buy the actual warframe or weapon straight up for like 200+plat.  

Who needs to buy the blueprint when you can buy the complete item with a slot and tater preinstalled?

[cesmode]

Who needs to buy the blueprint when you can buy the complete item with a slot and tater preinstalled?

 

Who wants to spend plat on every new toy ?  

 

Again, this isn't an MMO where the social experience is paramount.  Its a shooter with a bit of progression and variety with weapon and warframe acquisition.  The moment that we can bid and sell items on a market, dilutes the core gameplay a bit.  I even think trading should not be allowed any more.  Earn everything.  

 

Still have the warframe/weapon available on the current market for 200-300 plat or whatever, with all the goodies it comes with for those folks with less time and want to drop real money on the entire thing.  But Id like to think the majority of players earn their blueprints...and if I can simply get the last BP I need for a set off an auction house for 250k credits or 20platinum...eh.  

 

I think it will do more harm than good.

[noveltyhero]

Who wants to spend plat on every new toy ?  

 

Again, this isn't an MMO where the social experience is paramount.  Its a shooter with a bit of progression and variety with weapon and warframe acquisition.  The moment that we can bid and sell items on a market, dilutes the core gameplay a bit.  I even think trading should not be allowed any more.  Earn everything.  

 

Still have the warframe/weapon available on the current market for 200-300 plat or whatever, with all the goodies it comes with for those folks with less time and want to drop real money on the entire thing.  But Id like to think the majority of players earn their blueprints...and if I can simply get the last BP I need for a set off an auction house for 250k credits or 20platinum...eh.  

 

I think it will do more harm than good.

If the economy doesn't get worse or if it gets better then by all means AH all the way, however my biggest fear is that it drops I mean the game is at a point where it can fix it quicker than other games but still a big risk :S

[cesmode]

If the economy doesn't get worse or if it gets better then by all means AH all the way, however my biggest fear is that it drops I mean the game is at a point where it can fix it quicker than other games but still a big risk :S

 

This isnt an MMO.  Who cares about an economy?

Having an auction house in Diablo 3 was its downfall.  Diablo 3 isn't an MMO.  The best decision they made was removing it.  Now players have to ..i dunno, play the game and earn their gear.

[noveltyhero]

This isnt an MMO.  Who cares about an economy?

Having an auction house in Diablo 3 was its downfall.  Diablo 3 isn't an MMO.  The best decision they made was removing it.  Now players have to ..i dunno, play the game and earn their gear.

This has MMO aspects. Who cares about an economy? Skyrim wasn't an MMO yet it had an economy (somewhat). Let's make all weapons and frames be acquired through one mission where you exterminate 1 level 1 Grineer on Mercury, who cares about the economy?

 

Sorry not to sound angry at you but every game (mostly) has an economy and if it wasn't set and managed then the game's progression would be terrible. Diablo is an MMO somewhat, it's like Warframe, Massively Multiplayer? no but Massive Multiplayer Online yeah :/

[cesmode]

This has MMO aspects. Who cares about an economy? Skyrim wasn't an MMO yet it had an economy (somewhat). Let's make all weapons and frames be acquired through one mission where you exterminate 1 level 1 Grineer on Mercury, who cares about the economy?

 

Sorry not to sound angry at you but every game (mostly) has an economy and if it wasn't set and managed then the game's progression would be terrible. Diablo is an MMO somewhat, it's like Warframe, Massively Multiplayer? no but Massive Multiplayer Online yeah :/

 

You dont sound angry, but Im not sure of the points you were making in the first paragraph.

 

Skyrim, had, if any, a minimalistic economy.  Selling to NPCs and whatnot did not create the ebb and flow that a multi-player driven economy would.  You couldn't buy some of the better crap from an NPC in that game.  

 

And no, diablo and warframe are not placed into the massive multiplayer online category.  You are alone on your tenno ship(or previous the galaxy screen)...you group up at max with four players in an instanced map.  Massive multiplayer online means you are in an open world where you can see people coming and going about their own business in the same map/zone/channel,etc.  I log out and log back in, and that player picking flowers is still there.  Thats MMO.  

 

This game is a shooter.  Would you classify Call of Duty an MMO?

 

MMO definition:

 

1. A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet.MMOs usually have at least one persistent world, however some games differ.

    

Edited August 20, 2014 by cesmode

[noveltyhero]

 

You dont sound angry, but Im not sure of the points you were making in the first paragraph.

 

Skyrim, had, if any, a minimalistic economy.  Selling to NPCs and whatnot did not create the ebb and flow that a multi-player driven economy would.  You couldn't buy some of the better crap from an NPC in that game.  

 

And no, diablo and warframe are not placed into the massive multiplayer online category.  You are alone on your tenno ship(or previous the galaxy screen)...you group up at max with four players in an instanced map.  Massive multiplayer online means you are in an open world where you can see people coming and going about their own business in the same map/zone/channel,etc.  I log out and log back in, and that player picking flowers is still there.  Thats MMO.  

 

This game is a shooter.  Would you classify Call of Duty an MMO?

 

MMO definition:

 

1. A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet.MMOs usually have at least one persistent world, however some games differ.

    

 

Eh, true.

 

Still however, why should a stable economy be limited to MMOs?

[cesmode]

Eh, true.

 

Still however, why should a stable economy be limited to MMOs?

 

Because its a concept that was developed with MMOs in mind.  In an MMO, players share the same open world space, same mob density, same resource nodes, etc.  They collect and return to a city and place items up for auction.  Everyone on that server had equal opportunity to collect the same stuff since the maps are the exact same for everyone with placement and density of mobs, nodes, etc.

 

Now we look at a game like warframe where everything is completely instanced (your own personal 'zone' for your play session) and tilesets are randomized.  If you and I participated in different instances of a T4 survival, the tileset could be different.  Mob density is different.  Life support spawn frequencies are random, along with the drop chances of lifesupport.  Im not sure about this next one, but mob spawn locations could be different, even if we were in seperate instances but the same tileset.  

 

One person may have more choke points and mob density/spawns than the next, so they can mow down more and collect more loot.  If he brings this back to an AH, on a very minimal level, he has a leg up on the market.  

 

Simply put, in a game like Warframe or even diablo 3, the maps are instanced and randomized with the mob density and placement randomized.  We do not have equal opportunity to farm the same amount of stuff, or compete for the same amount of limited resources.

[noveltyhero]

Because its a concept that was developed with MMOs in mind.  In an MMO, players share the same open world space, same mob density, same resource nodes, etc.  They collect and return to a city and place items up for auction.  Everyone on that server had equal opportunity to collect the same stuff since the maps are the exact same for everyone with placement and density of mobs, nodes, etc.

 

Now we look at a game like warframe where everything is completely instanced (your own personal 'zone' for your play session) and tilesets are randomized.  If you and I participated in different instances of a T4 survival, the tileset could be different.  Mob density is different.  Life support spawn frequencies are random, along with the drop chances of lifesupport.  Im not sure about this next one, but mob spawn locations could be different, even if we were in seperate instances but the same tileset.  

 

One person may have more choke points and mob density/spawns than the next, so they can mow down more and collect more loot.  If he brings this back to an AH, on a very minimal level, he has a leg up on the market.  

 

Simply put, in a game like Warframe or even diablo 3, the maps are instanced and randomized with the mob density and placement randomized.  We do not have equal opportunity to farm the same amount of stuff, or compete for the same amount of limited resources.

Hmmm, I can see the problem you mean there :/

 

I don't know, growing up I got more used to free trade rather than auction houses. Eh, let's wait and see what DE does in the end :/

[grillv20]

I had an idea in regards to helping keep the so called auction house from being diluted so much. My idea was to only be able to sell items if you were logged in to the game. For example you would have to keep your character logged in to some sort of hub so you couldn't do anything except sell your wares. It would sort of be like what we got now but it would all of the actual trading would be automated by the system itself. I think something like this could help preserve the actual prices on items seeing as there would be a lot of people unwilling to just sit around and idle and do nothing for long periods of time. Sure there would be a lot of AFKers sitting with the game on all the time but I think there would be just as many people if not more unwilling to sit around with the game on doing nothing but selling stuff. 

 

Thoughts?

[Davoodoo]

Thoughts?

First thing that comes into my mind about this is ppl going afk at night just to sell their stuff so why bother with such limitation if it gonna be exploited anyway.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Who wants to spend plat on every new toy ?  

Keep moving that goal post.

[grillv20]

First thing that comes into my mind about this is ppl going afk at night just to sell their stuff so why bother with such limitation if it gonna be exploited anyway.

 

I just figured that it would be better than giving everybody the option to just slap stuff up on the auction house and then log out or go do something else. I mean if they did it the way other games do it then you're going to see tons of things on there. I figured this way it would at least cut back on some of it.

 

Alternatively some games like PSO2 have a gate on the auction house to where you have to subscribe to the game to get the actual benefit of using the auction house. Something like this could pay for the auction house server that they would have to buy and maintain. This would also filter out a lot of players from posting stuff to the auction house. I don't like this model because its a huge "screw you" to the players that don't sub up. Thats why I kind of figured my idea would be a little bit more friendly to the community while POSSIBLY helping to keep the game's economy going. I doubt that whatever iteration they choose will save the economy very much honestly. I think the only way that they could actually do something is to implement some sort of base cost to certain items placed on the AH.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I just figured that it would be better than giving everybody the option to just slap stuff up on the auction house and then log out or go do something else. I mean if they did it the way other games do it then you're going to see tons of things on there. I figured this way it would at least cut back on some of it.

 

Alternatively some games like PSO2 have a gate on the auction house to where you have to subscribe to the game to get the actual benefit of using the auction house. Something like this could pay for the auction house server that they would have to buy and maintain. This would also filter out a lot of players from posting stuff to the auction house. I don't like this model because its a huge "screw you" to the players that don't sub up. Thats why I kind of figured my idea would be a little bit more friendly to the community while POSSIBLY helping to keep the game's economy going. I doubt that whatever iteration they choose will save the economy very much honestly. I think the only way that they could actually do something is to implement some sort of base cost to certain items placed on the AH.

The economy will take care of itself.

[grillv20]

Honestly I feel as if they should just give it a chance. If it sucks then whatever. 

 

Not talking about my idea, just an auction house in general.

Edited August 20, 2014 by grillv20

[Xylia]

consignment house

 

blind bids

 

highest bid matches with lowest set price item for sale

 

example: we have 4 items for sale say 10/20/30/40 plat (all same item for this example, thus same sale category)

 

ppl looking at the item in the consignment house cannot see listed prices, but they can see what the last 5 of that item sold for (to give a going rate)

 

say the last one sold for 25, so the buyer bids 20, if he was the only buyer at that time, then the buyer would be matched with the person who listed their item for 10, once that match was complete, there would still be 3 left for sale at 20/30/40 (other ppl would now see 25 and 20 listed as the most recent sale prices, so they could see the price going down)

 

if multiple buyers bid at the same time it works the same way, but in sequence, the highest bidder gets matched with the lowest priced, thus if two ppl bid one at 30 and another at 40, then the 40 bid would be matched with the 20 seller, and the 30 would then be matched with the 30 seller (continuing from our first example), leaving one item still for sale at 40

 

with this system, ppl can see the going rate, but they can not know what the seller set their price at, thus they bid based on going rate and/or trying to outbid if they really want a desirable item, thusly a seller can set their sell price low to move fast, but risks lowering the market, or they can set a high sell price, but it might not move as fast

 

its the only way to keep ppl fair

 

but i agree that MR should be the limiting stat on how many items

 

City of Heroes/Villains used a system like this and AFAIK no other game has put a better working system in a game

 

FFXI has this, and I have a Love/Hate relationship with it.

 

Sometimes, you can rook people who try to get theirs to sell first by underbidding, but also, the constant trying can cause you to make mistakes.

 

In that game, for example, let's say you need an item. You look at the list and you see the last several sold for, say, 40,000 gil.

 

You try 40,000 and it says "You cannot buy that for 40,000 gil."

 

So you try 41,000 and it still doesn't go.

 

You try 42,000. nope.

You try 43,000. nope.

You try 44,000. nope.

 

...about this time you're getting tired of typing numbers in, and you accidentally put in 55,000 instead of 45,000 and it goes through and you get the item.... but you bid 10k higher than you meant to. And of course there's no way to get your money back. So you have to be extra careful. I've seen people accidentally bid 1,100,000 on a 100,000 item before because they accidentally added one too many zeroes. I've sold things for 16,000 when it was really supposed to be 1,600 but the history already erased who bought it (an item that sells 20, 50+ per day).

 

But then I'd admit that FFXI's UI is... very outdated and console-centric, they could have a "Retry" button instead of having to re-enter the whole number each time, but still. Trying and trying and trying to guess the price is sometimes frustrating. Though it is funny when you see something listed for 10,000 and you bid 7,000 and it goes through and you win the item. lol. that's always fun.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Xylia

[Semshol]

I had an idea in regards to helping keep the so called auction house from being diluted so much. My idea was to only be able to sell items if you were logged in to the game. For example you would have to keep your character logged in to some sort of hub so you couldn't do anything except sell your wares. It would sort of be like what we got now but it would all of the actual trading would be automated by the system itself. I think something like this could help preserve the actual prices on items seeing as there would be a lot of people unwilling to just sit around and idle and do nothing for long periods of time. Sure there would be a lot of AFKers sitting with the game on all the time but I think there would be just as many people if not more unwilling to sit around with the game on doing nothing but selling stuff. 

 

Thoughts?

 

Problem with this is we would still have the people who whine about how they can't stay online/have better things to do. It would also not be an enhancement to trade, but rather a step backward (IMO).

 

So I am still more for a limited auction house.

[Semshol]

FFXI has this, and I have a Love/Hate relationship with it.

 

Sometimes, you can rook people who try to get theirs to sell first by underbidding, but also, the constant trying can cause you to make mistakes.

 

In that game, for example, let's say you need an item. You look at the list and you see the last several sold for, say, 40,000 gil.

 

You try 40,000 and it says "You cannot buy that for 40,000 gil."

 

So you try 41,000 and it still doesn't go.

 

You try 42,000. nope.

You try 43,000. nope.

You try 44,000. nope.

 

...about this time you're getting tired of typing numbers in, and you accidentally put in 55,000 instead of 45,000 and it goes through and you get the item.... but you bid 10k higher than you meant to. And of course there's no way to get your money back. So you have to be extra careful. I've seen people accidentally bid 1,100,000 on a 100,000 item before because they accidentally added one too many zeroes. I've sold things for 16,000 when it was really supposed to be 1,600 but the history already erased who bought it (an item that sells 20, 50+ per day).

 

But then I'd admit that FFXI's UI is... very outdated and console-centric, they could have a "Retry" button instead of having to re-enter the whole number each time, but still. Trying and trying and trying to guess the price is sometimes frustrating. Though it is funny when you see something listed for 10,000 and you bid 7,000 and it goes through and you win the item. lol. that's always fun.

 

Well with warframe the thing is, the prices are more predictable. The reason I say that is because plat increases in quantities of 1. 5p will go for most mods. The rarer ones maybe 10p. So with blind bids, someone will get the sale, as opposed to having open bids and total undercutting.

 

Still, I can foresee the same love-hate when people try to buy my Crimson Dervish x'D

Edited August 21, 2014 by Semshol

[Vorsches]

AH would be nice, I have a literal list of mods that I can sell, but don't have the time (or patience) to get rid of.

Oh and +1, bumped.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Vorsches

[Loswaith]

...

More example and one that is live and on-going is the Steam Market, when a new item comes out, initial sell is say £120, then another person comes in to sell at £60 and it drops down like that a lot, the price never stabilizes it all matters on amount of sellers and buyers which is keeping expensive items expensive. ...

Actually the steam market does stabilise (rarer normals and foil cards sell for more than more common ones, due to availability and demand) to a certain level where it will then fluctuate around that price but rarely drop below or above that point all that much (like a real market) unless there is some steam event driving the prices up or down.

 

A market is all about supply and demand. 

If demand is high and supply is low prices rise.

Iif suppy is high or demand is low prices fall. 

That is what a market is. Having prices stay high with high supply/ low demand is when the market becomes broken, not before.

 

Your trying to achieve artificial supply restrictions by adding the limitations to keep the supply lower than it actually is will break the market sooner than letting it be determined by supply and demand.  Infact the artificial reduction in suppy we have now (due to the cumbersome trade system), will be the reason for artifically lower prices for the short term should an automated auction/market system be implemented.

 

Honestly most of the concerns here come across as players that dont want to loose out on the profits they already get.  Prices already start high and drop to fractions of what they were (abet in a lot of cases still more than what the thing is actually worth).

 

The ideas that players put forth for trading initially never included platinum (many advising DE against it) for the very reasons the OP wants to restrict the automated auction/market.

 

Unfortunatly trading has become the fix to bad drops not the supplement it was meant to be.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Loswaith