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Before You Ask For An Auction House, Think...


Semshol
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-snip-

 

Okay, this is why people understand only a little bit of economics, shouldn't talk about it.

 

The reason i am limiting supply is not to keep prices high. Economics 101, yes a limited supply sets an artificial price floor. However, considering the sheer number of players that are MR 4+ and the number of the more common mods that can be sold. I can forsee at least 4 flows per player, minimum, going up on the market (assuming an unlimited market). Do you want to have to go through 150 pages (assuming 10 results per page) of Flow mod cards? Each one under-cutting until it eventually drops to 2 - 3 platinum (and in doom and gloom situations, 1 platinum).

 

On the very first day of trading, assuming most of us don't use our trades. I can foresee listing of an incredible amounts of mods, 5% of which will be bought and 95% of which will remain in the market. I mean if there are so many copies, buyers will think, "why should I pay 2p for this when there are so many copies, I should be able to get one myself" and don't forget that unlike in the real world, once an item is bought it stays with you forever. It is not used up or consumed. So once a person gets 1 copy of the mod, he doesn't ever need another unless he is a weapons tester, however by the time they reach that stage they can farm whatever they want (i.e. like me).

 

Hence supply is already infinite and demand is very limited. It is already a buyer's market.

 

With limits however, the worst case situation can be prevented. Ultra rare mods like Crushing Ruin, Crossing Snakes, Crimson Dervish will always go for a premium no matter what trading system is in place. However, with a limited trading system, those with excess amounts of lower-end mod cards (such as farmers like myself) will have to choose between the items of highest value versus the items of lowest value. Thus preserving SOME value for the newbies who can't afford to acquire the best mods to sell right from the start.

 

Platinum is required to advance in this game, that is a fact. I want the game population to grow, not to die. Therefore I am looking at this problem and tackling it in a way that will ensure fairness so that both newbies and veterans can continue to profit.

 

Problems are not so easily solved by market forces, remember that.

 

Even real-world economies do not stabilize, or are you unaware of the european debt crisis and the fact that america itself is in a horrible debt situation and is only allowed to do as it pleases because it is the reserve currency of the world.

 

Game economics are forever different from real-world economics, so do not try to apply what is learned about the basics of supply and demand, when the factors in a game are so clearly different.

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., "why should I pay 2p for this when there are so many copies, I should be able to get one myself" ...

Players should be thinking that, because that is them playing the game as opposed to paying someone else to play the game.  Drops are the reward for playing the game.

 

 

...

Hence supply is already infinite and demand is very limited. It is already a buyer's market.

 

With limits however, the worst case situation can be prevented. Ultra rare mods like Crushing Ruin, Crossing Snakes, Crimson Dervish will always go for a premium no matter what trading system is in place. ...

So there is infinite supply but limited supply as well due to rare drops, so which is it infinite or limited? they are mutually exclusive.  If we have infinite supply then your second point about limited supply is moot, if there is limited supply then it makes your first point moot.

 

 

....

Even real-world economies do not stabilize, or are you unaware of the european debt crisis and the fact that america itself is in a horrible debt situation and is only allowed to do as it pleases because it is the reserve currency of the world.

 

Game economics are forever different from real-world economics, so do not try to apply what is learned about the basics of supply and demand, when the factors in a game are so clearly different.

So its ok for you to apply real world applications of enconmies to strengthen your argument but not others?  Again you counter your own points.

 

You however missed the point I was talking about was price stability not economic stability (which has infinitly more factors involved).  To even consider I would be comparing the two is simply ludicrous.

However saying a market (as in the buying and selling of goods) isnt impacted heavily by supply and demand is like saying the sun isnt hot, whether it's a game or not.

 

...Platinum is required to advance in this game, that is a fact....

So your saying warframe is pay to play/win then.  I'm sure many players would disagree with you and its quite dishonest towards the model DE is using.  There is literally nothing required in warframe that you need platinum for.  Sure it can make your play life easier or more astheticly pleasing though.

 

 

Okay, this is why people understand only a little bit of economics, shouldn't talk about it. ...

This same thing could be said about players talking about game design/development.  Prehaps it's better if you took your own advice before thrusting it onto others.

Edited by Loswaith
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Players should be thinking that, because that is them playing the game as opposed to paying someone else to play the game.  Drops are the reward for playing the game.

 

 

So there is infinite supply but limited supply as well due to rare drops, so which is it infinite or limited? they are mutually exclusive.  If we have infinite supply then your second point about limited supply is moot, if there is limited supply then it makes your first point moot.

 

 

So its ok for you to apply real world applications of enconmies to strengthen your argument but not others?  Again you counter your own points.

 

You however missed the point I was talking about was price stability not economic stability (which has infinitly more factors involved).  To even consider I would be comparing the two is simply ludicrous.

However saying a market (as in the buying and selling of goods) isnt impacted heavily by supply and demand is like saying the sun isnt hot, whether it's a game or not.

 

So your saying warframe is pay to play/win then.  I'm sure many players would disagree with you and its quite dishonest towards the model DE is using.  There is literally nothing required in warframe that you need platinum for.  Sure it can make your play life easier or more astheticly pleasing though.

 

 

This same thing could be said about players talking about game design/development.  Prehaps it's better if you took your own advice before thrusting it onto others.

 

Please read and understand, again:

 

- Drops are a reward. But in relation to a point I will clarify later, people need platinum. An economy is made up of buyers and sellers. We are all sellers so we need to find ways to encourage buyers.

 

- The second point. There is infinite supply because there is no soul-binding in this game, a mod can be endlessly traded and is never consumed. Therefore supply is infinite. My suggestion is to create a limit via the limited number of auctions we can put up. Which is already the system we have now, with a limited number of trades. This assists the economy because players CHOOSE what to sell, instead of putting up their entire inventory. I hope you can finally understand this.

 

- I was not using it to strengthen my argument, it is a side-point made to counter the saying that others, not just you, have said: Economies will stabilize to equilibrium. Because of certain factors in a game: i.e. infinite supply, they do not. They can only find increasingly lower equilibriums unless a floor or restrictions are put in place.

 

- Don't try to white knight for DE. I never said pay to win, I said "necessary for advancement". Why? unpotato'd gear won't last in T4. Potatos cost platinum because the alerts are VERY infrequent. Therefore for a player to progress at a reasonable pace, they require platinum. Warframe is pay to fast, not pay to win, but if we look at a reasonable progression through the game, it is impossible without making some platinum. I want newbies to be able to enjoy making platinum to upgrade themselves, not feel like it's the biggest chore of the century. This will help increase the player base and some of those players will become pay to play, which assists DE in obtaining more income. Blind reliance on economic stability and white knights, hurt the game. Again, I am not being disrespectful or as you strangely put it, dishonest, to their model. I am well aware of their model and have made suggestions that will assist it.

 

- The only game design factors I have worked with are those that can easily be replicated or are already existing in the game. If you use the tools you have, it does not require you to study up on game design just to suggest something. I have suggested nothing that is not already implemented into the game in some way, shape or form, that is how I write my suggestions.

 

Please read and understand, again.

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Action House almost kill Diablo 3. Solwly took away the fun of the game, and everything start to turn around the AH. You don't even realize when you start farming gold or items with the AH on mind, and not just playing the game because it's fun. 

Learn from Blizzard, action house would kill Warframe. 

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Auction house should have larger tax rates due to the ease of doing so compared to normal trade.

Normal trade still highly dependent on you being online and attracting the prospective buyer, through either forum trade (which is already kinda difficult, not everyone trades on forum) or chat which is flooded at times.

 

 

Auction also needs an inclusion of a BIN price (buy it now price).

I would prefer a compulsory BIN price for every item, the reason is BIN will prevent people from excessive bidding wars.

But of course I can see some people disagreeing on this.

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Auction house should have larger tax rates due to the ease of doing so compared to normal trade.

Normal trade still highly dependent on you being online and attracting the prospective buyer, through either forum trade (which is already kinda difficult, not everyone trades on forum) or chat which is flooded at times.

 

 

Auction also needs an inclusion of a BIN price (buy it now price).

I would prefer a compulsory BIN price for every item, the reason is BIN will prevent people from excessive bidding wars.

But of course I can see some people disagreeing on this.

 

BIN price is fine, I think that will be implemented since it is a part of the auction house. But it won't solve undercutting since we can still undercut based on BIN price. (i.e. BIN 5, BIN 4, BIN 3, you get the idea).

 

However auction house should actually have no tax rate. Otherwise there would be no point to using it (it is already more limited  as compared to trade because you cannot bargain and you cannot create custom deals or negotiate prices). Because trade is taxed based on clan, AH cannot have a tax (since it is an all-player hub). However, auction house should be limited to 1 item per auction. So that means with trade you get 3 items. and AH of course has a time-limit. The key thing that I want to do, is to ensure that the AH doesn't flood warframe, it should be something players use to sell high-end mods that they can't wait in trade for. It should not be a system of spamming entire inventories (which became the problem in many many other games).

 

The synergy between the two is important to players feel like they're making a choice, not just defaulting to one system or the other (though some of course, who are too lazy to run shops like me and will go straight to AH)

 

 

Action House almost kill Diablo 3. Solwly took away the fun of the game, and everything start to turn around the AH. You don't even realize when you start farming gold or items with the AH on mind, and not just playing the game because it's fun. 

Learn from Blizzard, action house would kill Warframe. 

 

Auction house won't kill warframe if implemented correctly, i.e. with limits. Main reason being, it will enhance the effectiveness of trading between the economy. The thing to find is balance. As I've suggested, it would be best to have a limited auction house as opposed to an unlimited one, where people are listing their full inventory.

Edited by Semshol
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Platinum is required to advance in this game, that is a fact.

Okay, this is why that people understand only a little bit about Warframe, shouldn't talk about it. 

 

Platinum is NOT required to advance in the game. I am MR8 (could be higher but see no point), and the only platinum I have ever had/used is the free platinum that every account is started with.  I have never bought a single platinum, nor have I traded for any. You don't need it, period.  So needing it is NOT a fact.

 

EDIT:  You are not arguing to make the game better.  You are arguing to make the prices artificially higher out of pure greed.

Edited by (PS4)DesecratedFlame
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There is so much going on here, it's maddening.

 

First, Platinum as a currency is problematic.  Its value and source is tied directly to real world currency, with real life social and legal considerations attached.  Secondly, it has a high-value minimum denomination.  How would you set a tax or a fee on a transaction of one Platinum?  Also, the value of a single Platinum varies not only by internal supply and demand but also externally on discounts and deals on buying the Platinum in the first place (I just got a login reward of 50% off Platinum, so how does that compare to someone who pays full price?).

 

Second, in-game trading based on currency bought with real money is influenced most powerfully by two groups: farmers and whales.  They are providing the largest share of products and filling the highest share of demand.  This can create a revolving door of people who start the game, buy hundreds of dollars of in-game currency, play the game for a month, get burned out because once the mechanics of play have been experienced, there is nothing left to achieve, and quit.  All that capital and material they possessed is now gone forever, which is sort of ok because the capital and materials of the game are essentially infinite.  Which makes any comparison of in-game "economy" to real life economics somewhat absurd.

 

Third, let me emphasize that last point: in-game economics is not comparable to real-life economics.  Real life economy is driven by strictly limited resources and (theoretically) limited currency.  Currency is equally usable for services as it is goods, and most goods are perishable or consumed.  In a game, nobody pays for other player's services (except in especially complex economies such as EVE), and mods/weapons/frames/ect are not consumed or perishable.

 

I could say more, but this post is almost certainly too long for most people to have read this far anyway.

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ppl dont care about what "could" or "might" happen they want convenience and the removal of time wasting while trying to trade, an auction house fixes that 100%, the rest is irrelevant.

 

Catering to exactly what players want when they want it, without consideration of what "could" or "might" happen, is a valid position for players to have.

 

I have to disagree with the game developers taking that position and deciding that "the rest is irrelevant".

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I really wish you wouldn't stop me there, because exactly three sentences later I say "except in especially complex economies such as EVE".  I say it in regard to currency being used for services, but EVE online is an exception to typical in-game economies.  Ships and equipment are created and sold by players, and those same ships and equipment are blown up (and not just by players). 

 

Comparing to EVE would only make sense if you ran a mission, and died, and were out of revives, you permanently lost your Warframe, your weapons, your sentinel, and your consumables.  All at once, gone.  Oh yeah, and if you didn't have an insurance policy on your character, you would be reset to mastery rank 1 with no ranks or affinities in any equipment.

 

Other than that, it's a perfect comparison.  </end sarcasm>

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I really wish you wouldn't stop me there, because exactly three sentences later I say "except in especially complex economies such as EVE".  I say it in regard to currency being used for services, but EVE online is an exception to typical in-game economies.  Ships and equipment are created and sold by players, and those same ships and equipment are blown up (and not just by players). 

 

Comparing to EVE would only make sense if you ran a mission, and died, and were out of revives, you permanently lost your Warframe, your weapons, your sentinel, and your consumables.  All at once, gone.  Oh yeah, and if you didn't have an insurance policy on your character, you would be reset to mastery rank 1 with no ranks or affinities in any equipment.

 

Other than that, it's a perfect comparison.  </end sarcasm>

Read more than just the first paragraph. The article mentions more than just EVE.  The only thing that needs to happen to make the AH a larger success is there needs to be more things that are tradeable, especially consumables and materials.  Also make mods account bound when actually used.

 

Real world economics ARE comprable to game economics. 

Edited by (PS4)DesecratedFlame
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Catering to exactly what players want when they want it, without consideration of what "could" or "might" happen, is a valid position for players to have.

 

I have to disagree with the game developers taking that position and deciding that "the rest is irrelevant".

Benefits of ah

-convenience

-ease of trade

-more reliable income

-harder time for scammers

Disadvantages??

-market flood with parts which couldnt be sold so far on trade chat

 

Yea thats it, i say that everything that ah provides is worth more than frost, latrons, reapers prime etc being worth 1p for next year or 2.

Even if there were more disadvantages they wouldnt be serious enough to be relevant compares to how much benefits it provides.

Edited by Davoodoo
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Real world economics ARE comprable to game economics. 

 

I apologize.  I realize now that debating real world economics vs game economics is moving outside the scope of this thread.

 

My essential issues are that : 1) Platinum is problematic.  It's a high value, indivisible currency which complicates fees/taxes on transactions.  It also has a vastly varying base value due to large-purchase discounts and log-in "coupons" and periodic sales on Platinum currency.

 

                                               2) Its possible to spend real-world money to buy endless amounts of Platinum, and farmers are able to gather infinite amounts of mods/items without having to compete for resource nodes or face diminishing returns.  This can create results in the in-game economy that are difficult to address without deeply regulating the market.

 

I sincerely hope that my concerns listed here are unfounded or have solutions.  I'd love to hear any suggestions to that end.

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Benefits of ah

-convenience

-ease of trade

-more reliable income

-harder time for scammers

Disadvantages??

-market flood with parts which couldnt be sold so far on trade chat

 

Yea thats it, i say that everything that ah provides is worth more than frost, latrons, reapers prime etc being worth 1p for next year or 2.

Even if there were more disadvantages they wouldnt be serious enough to be relevant compares to how much benefits it provides.

 

I have no arguments with any of those points.  I have a tendency to disagree with the basic premises of a comment, instead of directly refuting the details.

 

To that point, I question whether the assumption that DE plans to continue player trading is correct, or if they have concerns about any player trading being disruptive to their intentions for the game and their business model.  And speaking of business, I suspect that DE will think long and hard about implementing any system that will allow people to build prime weapons and Warframes for single-digit platinum, when they are charging 200+ platinum for the base model of those items (160+ when considering the potato and inventory slot).

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2) Its possible to spend real-world money to buy endless amounts of Platinum, and farmers are able to gather infinite amounts of mods/items without having to compete for resource nodes or face diminishing returns.  This can create results in the in-game economy that are difficult to address without deeply regulating the market.

That would imply that people have infinte real world currency or infinite time.   Neither is true.

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That would imply that people have infinte real world currency or infinite time.   Neither is true.

 

You are correct.  Allow me to refine my concern.  There is always going to be a vast disparity between players' free time to play and disposable income.  Actively avoiding a debate regarding inequality in society, my question is this: if any player can buy anything from established farmer players with in-game currency, which is bought with real world money, does it make Warframe into a Pay-to-Win game?  Granted, you aren't buying mods and prime BPs from DE directly, but you are buying the currency from DE and using it to buy the best and brightest gear with no playing required.  The only thing left is leveling your affinity on your gear, and with the platinum to buy affinity boosters that is hardly an issue.

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I have no arguments with any of those points.  I have a tendency to disagree with the basic premises of a comment, instead of directly refuting the details.

 

To that point, I question whether the assumption that DE plans to continue player trading is correct, or if they have concerns about any player trading being disruptive to their intentions for the game and their business model.  And speaking of business, I suspect that DE will think long and hard about implementing any system that will allow people to build prime weapons and Warframes for single-digit platinum, when they are charging 200+ platinum for the base model of those items (160+ when considering the potato and inventory slot).

Their prices are too high and many ppl said that, 20$ for a frame. Throwing extra 90 day booster and some plat to prime access to raise a price.

 

However remember that everything that de does will have opponents.

Even when they do nothing ppl will get upset.

The question is how many get &!$$ed enough to quit?

I imagine that alot would when trading would be taken away.

So i find it pretty safe to assume that trading will stay.

 

There is also other aspect, de gets money when someone buys plat not when they buy items for plat, so its really in their best interest to keep trading  so ppl would buy plat for that instead of avoiding buying at all since their prices and premium model discourage players from buying.

Edited by Davoodoo
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You are correct.  Allow me to refine my concern.  There is always going to be a vast disparity between players' free time to play and disposable income.  Actively avoiding a debate regarding inequality in society, my question is this: if any player can buy anything from established farmer players with in-game currency, which is bought with real world money, does it make Warframe into a Pay-to-Win game?  Granted, you aren't buying mods and prime BPs from DE directly, but you are buying the currency from DE and using it to buy the best and brightest gear with no playing required.  The only thing left is leveling your affinity on your gear, and with the platinum to buy affinity boosters that is hardly an issue.

The game is already P2W.  Even if you don't consider it P2W, being able to trade for anything would not change it from its current status. 

 

You can already buy the most important things, and things like slots being plat only makes the game fall into the P2W category.  If anything, making trading easier, via an auction house, makes the game LESS P2W.

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I would certainly like an auction house, though as a PS4 player, I think it's worth mentioning that navigating trade chat/text with a controller is much more tedious (though somewhat better after 14).

 

I think having MR-based limits on purchases/listings, fees for listing, taxes on transactions, and keeping it plat-only would be enough to keep it useful to DE.  The only real concern is that democratizing the means of trade means people can get items easier.  The largest barrier to getting items in the current system isn't the cost, it's finding the person and wading through the poor interface and restrictions.  If it actually were as easy as "buy plat, go to AH" to get things, then people would have all sorts of items very very quickly/cheaply.

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The game is already P2W.  Even if you don't consider it P2W, being able to trade for anything would not change it from its current status. 

 

You can already buy the most important things, and things like slots being plat only makes the game fall into the P2W category.  If anything, making trading easier, via an auction house, makes the game LESS P2W.

 

I'm almost with you on this, the game offers a lot for those willing to buy into it.

 

I suppose I get hung up on two things: when you see somebody with a prime piece, you still assume that they probably assembled most of it themselves, by running plenty of Void missions (often fairly high level).  The convenience (and apparently reduced prices) from an AH would eliminate that 'status'.

 

The other thing is, mods are more important than prime equipment is, and can't be selectively bought through the platinum market at the moment.  Sure, you can buy mod packs, but it's random and actually worse chances for a specific mod you want than running a mission against enemies that are known to drop it.

 

Perhaps a slight modification of the OP suggestions would be good.  Set Mastery Rank limits on what gear you can buy in the AH.  The higher the conclave of the item (assuming conclave is hammered out; that's a whole other topic), the higher the necessary MR.  Now whether you still permit inter-player trading without that restriction is debatable.  This way, you can only buy AH gear that you could reasonably attain for yourself by running the missions where it would be found.

Edited by Licter
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prime piece . . . AH would eliminate that 'status'.

 

The other thing is, mods are more important than prime equipment is, and can't be selectively bought through the platinum market at the moment.  Sure, you can buy mod packs, but it's random and actually worse chances for a specific mod you want than running a mission against enemies that are known to drop it.

 

Set Mastery Rank limits on what gear you can buy in the AH. 

Prime Frames should not be used as an ePeen status symbol.  Claiming otherwise just exposes your greed.

 

And?  People can already trade mods now.  The introduction of an AH has no effect on this, and it is irrelevant to the discussion.

 

Artficial limits on an AH (outside of listings per day) is a dumb idea.  If someone wants to trade for something they cannot use yet, then they should be allowed to do so.  If they want to buy a soma (for the sake of argument) blueprint at MR3 then sit on it until MR6 then they should be allowed to do so.

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