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Ash Is Messed Up Now *sigh*


Duyet
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I am not happy with the changes they have done to Ash these recent months. I know I have made many threads about Blade Storm in the past, but this thread is going to focus on the frame as a whole.

 

So what has become of Ash? He is just a press 4 frame now. His other abilities are irrelevant most of the time since Blade Storm is good enough to be used in most situations. Before, there were times to use Blade Storm and times when not to use Blade Storm. Turning it into an instant nuke makes it an ability that can be used at all times.

 

Let's talk about his abilities in relation with Blade Storm..

 

1) Shuriken- It's a fun ability to use with maxed efficiency build, but I don't see why people would want to use this when they can just Blade Storm more enemies to death. This ability is mostly good for destroying camera. I mean, 500 damage(maybe x2) vs 2000 finisher damage(x17 or until target is dead), which one is better? Leave the killing to Blade Storm.

 

2) Smoke Screen- I used to use it to revive teammates or to deal 4x melee damage to something. With the changes to Blade Storm, I don't need to go invisible to help a teammate. It would just take me 3 seconds to clear an area with Blade Storm for me to have enough time to help up a fallen teammate. Because Blade Storm is so fast and strong now, I don't feel the need to chase around targets when I can just press 4 and let it do all the work.

 

3) Teleport- This is described to be the ability to get into melee range. Why get into melee range when you can just safely Blade Storm from afar? Before, we didn't rely on Blade Storm to get rid of enemies from afar. We had to teleport in then use an AoE gun like a Penta to kill mobs. Now Blade Storm dispatches everything quickly from a distance. Even if you want to use this to melee, you have to deal with the stupid finisher that they added recently. The animation is cool and all to teleport and perform a killing act, but most of the time they don't die because finisher damage is not enough and you just end up wasting time. This ability has gotten more useless now..

 

So what is my point? Ash's other 3 abilities have become quite useless  They all get overshadowed by Blade Storm for most parts of the game with a maxed efficiency build for spammability(which is another issue with Blade Storm.) So recap: Shuriken is very weak compared to Blade Storm when both of them are meant as damage dealing abilites. Smoke Screen to hide is unnecesary when eveything dies by pressing 4, Why teleport to them when they can just die from Blade Storm? I think it's time for Ash to have his abilities looked at again.

 

 

Oh, and watch the profile video again to see how they messed up the animation of Blade Storm.It used to look so cool when the targets were red as you attacked them and how the sequence were zoomed in. Now it's choppy as hell as the white clones join in.

 

Although he was considered to be useless or whatever, I miss the Ash before the changes. I used all of his abilities back then for fun, and now Blade Storm is the only ability that matters. I am writing this in memory of the Ash that I used to know. 2013-2014 RIP

Edited by Duyet
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I get what you feel, bro.

Bladestorm honestly seems to be the only ability I use with Ash, even though I got him for Smokescreen...which I too use just for getting out of the fight or for revivals.

I'm farming Loki Prime now, just to try him out. Ash is good, Ash is amazing, but Ash is Bladestorm. I'm not complaining, but I agree with you.

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i, dont like homing shuriken

 

 

it's the lack of control that we have on ash that make me sad

 

shuriken = dont have to aim

 

bladstorm = instant kill everything cant even see the cool animation   ( why can we do w/e we want while our shadow do the job? )

 

invisi =  god mode

 

 

 

Teleport require to aim when it shouldnt... it just kill the moovment utility

 

Slide jump+slam atk is better to engage mele imao

 

well messed up ASh EZ MODE

Edited by Tsoe
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P4W

This is a generic issue for most frames, first powers quickly become useless.

You could even say it's a power efficiency issue: when ultimates cost 25 energy without drawback, they remove the purpose of cheap powers.

Ash just joined the big family, but, honestly, nothing new or specific here.

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Or just don't use blade storm when its not needed?

You don't have to spam it. So don't?

Its the same with most frames.

I could spam their 4th ability (or in the case of some 3) but I can also choose not too when its unnecessary.

Nothings changed. Ash's other abilities are still useful. 

By contrast I hardly ever use blade storm.

Edited by StinkyPygmy
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Or just don't use blade storm when its not needed?

You don't have to spam it. So don't?

Its the same with most frames.

I could spam their 4th ability (or in the case of some 3) but I can also choose not too when its unnecessary.

Nothings changed. Ash's other abilities are still useful. 

By contrast I hardly ever use blade storm.

This, pure wisdom :3

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This, pure wisdom :3

Ooops my bad. Let me correct that.

 

 

Or just don't use blade storm when its not needed?

You don't have to spam it. So don't?

Its the same with most frames.

I could spam their 4th ability (or in the case of some 3) but I can also choose not too when its unnecessary.

Nothings changed. Ash's other abilities are still useful. 

By contrast I hardly ever use blade storm.

 

Grrrr DE why did you ruin ash? grrrrrr rabble rabble now all I do is spam 4 rabble rabble grrrrrrr.

Stop giving me the power of the gods at my fingertips and expecting me to show restraint grrrrr. 

Fixed*

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So what is my point? Ash's other 3 abilities have become quite useless  They all get overshadowed by Blade Storm for most parts of the game with a maxed efficiency build for spammability(which is another issue with Blade Storm.) 

 

Oh, and watch the profile video again to see how they messed up the animation of Blade Storm.It used to look so cool when the targets were red as you attacked them and how the sequence were zoomed in. Now it's choppy as hell as the white clones join in.

 

Although he was considered to be useless or whatever, I miss the Ash before the changes. I used all of his abilities back then for fun, and now Blade Storm is the only ability that matters. I am writing this in memory of the Ash that I used to know. 2013-2014 RIP

1) first 3 ability got overshadowed by 4th due to boost.

DE buff first 3 = 4th ability is par with other & some other QQ/rant about how it's not worth the 100 energy, AND so DE buff 4th again.

^see the chain-reaction? or it may go the OTHER direction.

 

2) it's the Bladestorm 1.0 where you'r DPS is soo dam slow & weak, as you only attack 1 target at a time 1 time. Some QQ about the DPS lose due to allies killing your red-marked target..

with the current bladestorm, you'r DPS increase as 2 other clones of yours attacks marked attacked for a total of XX number of times untill it's dead.

Overall, it's a huge buff.

 

3) DO you know, if u cast smoke-screen before triggering bladestorm, you will get a stealth melee damage increase?

Ash' #1 is OP as hell, with stacking bleed & forced bleed proc. wonders how you see this as weak.

 

ash' #3 is still crappy. that's the only S#&$ ability on that frame atm.

as compared to others with 2 to 3 S#&$ly ability

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I used all the the abilities except for shuriken, since shuriken is weak.

 

-Used smoke screen to stagger a large group and kill them.

-Used teleport to kill capture targets or heavy units, aswell to teleport to downed players

-Used blade storm when a room is full of units.

Why stagger and kill them when they just can just die? Why teleport to target when they can just die? Teleporting to down players is unnecessary when you can just do the spinning melee attack.

 

Or just don't use blade storm when its not needed?

You don't have to spam it. So don't?

Its the same with most frames.

I could spam their 4th ability (or in the case of some 3) but I can also choose not too when its unnecessary.

Nothings changed. Ash's other abilities are still useful. 

By contrast I hardly ever use blade storm.

What do you mean by not needed? Enemies need to be killed and Blade Storm is available. What you're saying is basically to hold back. Like instead of killing everything with a rifle, you opt to pull out a pistol and waste time. I am fine if they want to keep Blade Storm this good, but at least make his other 3 abilities worthy of being slotted.

 

His other abilities aren't useful when Blade Storm is available. Tell me when his other 3 abilities are useful. Not much, huh? If you hardly use Blade Storm, then you should play Loki instead. They both have teleportation and invisibility. The main difference between Ash and Loki is the offensive capability of Ash. Loki is more of defensive frame. Why play Ash when you don't even use his offensive power often?

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Or just don't use blade storm when its not needed?

You don't have to spam it. So don't?

Its the same with most frames.

I could spam their 4th ability (or in the case of some 3) but I can also choose not too when its unnecessary.

Nothings changed. Ash's other abilities are still useful. 

By contrast I hardly ever use blade storm.

 

Obviously, it should not be expected that "relaxed" (I do not find any better word) players would understand the point of the OP...

 

It's just that, for some people, inefficiency is NOT fun. It's fine to have fun using a MK1-Braton on Pluto, to go without mods, etc. But some players find fun in optimization, polishing, call them min-maxers, whatever. In MMOs for instance, it's the kind of people that do some theorycrafting, spend hours to find the best rotation. These kind of people have fun in using whatever mean is the best for any situation.

 

The issue here, is that Warframe is not suited at all for those players. It's too easy to maximize, and, as soon as you maximize, the game becomes boring. But not using the most efficient tools is even more boring for them.

Edited by Mazikeen
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Ash is my favorite warframe and even if his 4 is one of the most OP of the game i don't see where is the problem...
 

I'm playing with max efficiency.

 

1 - Useful and handy, you can spam it, the damage are 500 slash + 175 finisher, enough to help you to kill 1 or 2 enemy easily, WHY would you use 25 energy to kill 2 enemies when you can use 6.25 ??

 

2 - I personally use it to revive teamate, only last 4 second because of the max efficiency but it's enough. Did you ever try to use blade storm before reviving a teamate to clean the room when there are A LOT of enemies in the room ? I tried often to notice my teamate died during the animation of the blade storm.

3 - Doing a finisher attack for free on any target is just amazing, quick and only cost 6.25 energy, plus it can be used in a lot of other moment like going faster, reach the capture target etc...  Once again WHO would use 25 energy (or 100) for a bladestorm to kill some enemies if you can just teleport on them and use melee ?  If you want to waste all your energy pressing 4 every time you see 1 enemy... you're free to do so.

 

To me the only problem is "the other warframes are not powerful enough",especially their ultimate, and not "ash's ultimate is OP".
In this game the only warframes that have a really GOOD ultimate that deserve to be called like this are (in my opinion)

Trinity

loki

ash

Maybe rhino for the CC but definitely not the damage

mirage

 

vauban/nova/nyx are nice in infested...

 

and i haven't tried yet the new oberon's ult and saryn/zephyr/banshee

 

DE better upgrade the warframes ability and the difficulty of the game instead of nerfing the good warframe...

 

Also i forgot this point: almost nobody play ash

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Why stagger and kill them when they just can just die? Why teleport to target when they can just die? Teleporting to down players is unnecessary when you can just do the spinning melee attack.

 

What do you mean by not needed? Enemies need to be killed and Blade Storm is available. What you're saying is basically to hold back. Like instead of killing everything with a rifle, you opt to pull out a pistol and waste time. I am fine if they want to keep Blade Storm this good, but at least make his other 3 abilities worthy of being slotted.

 

His other abilities aren't useful when Blade Storm is available. Tell me when his other 3 abilities are useful. Not much, huh? If you hardly use Blade Storm, then you should play Loki instead. They both have teleportation and invisibility. The main difference between Ash and Loki is the offensive capability of Ash. Loki is more of defensive frame. Why play Ash when you don't even use his offensive power often?

Because ults are generally there for when you have grineer goons crawling up your rearend or if you are starting to find yourself in a sticky situation. You can spam it if you want but it being powerful isn't a reason to abuse it if it takes the fun out for you. Its one of the few dmg abilities which scales reasonably well into high level content. If you choose to spam blade storm because its there and efficient then fine, but theres no real reason to complain or consider Ash messed up. You are choosing to spam blade storm regardless of the situation and therefore are choosing to disregard his other abilities despite teh fact they aren't really overshadowed by blade storm as they serve different functionalities.

 

I don't feel the need to kill literally everything as fast as possible so yeah, I will hold off on using my ult (miasma for instance) if I don't really need it.

I play ash from time to time and I don't need to justify my use of him because I don't spam blade storm. I use him when I want a less squishy, offensive Loki. Its that simple. I play to have fun and use what I enjoy using. Not min/maxing literally everything I have just for the sake of min maxing.

Its all about the players choice.

Edited by StinkyPygmy
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Because ults are generally there for when you have grineer goons crawling up your rearend or if you are starting to find yourself in a sticky situation. You can spam it if you want but it being powerful isn't a reason to abuse it if it takes the fun out for you. Its one of the few dmg abilities which scales reasonably well into high level content. If you choose to spam blade storm because its there and efficient then fine, but theres no real reason to complain or consider Ash messed up. You are choosing to spam blade storm regardless of the situation and therefore are choosing to disregard his other abilities despite teh fact they aren't really overshadowed by blade storm as they serve different functionalities.

 

I don't feel the need to kill literally everything as fast as possible so yeah, I will hold off on using my ult (miasma for instance) if I don't really need it.

I play ash from time to time and I don't need to justify my use of him because I don't spam blade storm. I use him when I want a less squishy, offensive Loki. Its that simple. I play to have fun and use what I enjoy using. Not min/maxing literally everything I have just for the sake of min maxing.

Its all about the players choice.

Players choice, my &#!. What's the point of having 75% effiency cap when you only reserve your ults for "sticky situation"? Do you only spam 1,2, and 3 only? If not, do you even have power efficiency? What's the point of power effiency at all for players like you?

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Players choice, my @$$. What's the point of having 75% effiency cap when you only reserve your ults for "sticky situation"? Do you only spam 1,2, and 3 only? If not, do you even have power efficiency? What's the point of power effiency at all for players like you?

What do you mean? You are making a lot of assumptions about my play style. I don't only reserve it for a sticky situation. Thats just normally what I tend to do and functionally what ults are there for. I use also it when ever I feel like it or I've been grinding for ages and I'm getting lazy. The point is I don't let the fact its there stop me from using otherwise perfectly fine abilities and I'm not the one complaining it make things too easy. You are choosing to spam it and thus choosing to find spamming blade storm boring. Whenever I'm actually doing a run, like T4 for instance, and theres actually a threat of dying It sometimes serves me better to save energy and ults for when I need them or i could end up low on energy when I really need it. Its a tactical decision.

I invest in power efficiency when its appropriate (No point in putting max fleeting on a sonar focused banshee) and put a lot of effort into my builds, the point is, just because a one hit kill button is there I don't always have to use it.

You are complaining that bladestorm make things boring and too easy yet you are the one choosing to spam it. You're doing it to yourself OP.

 

So yes its 100% up to the player. Its no one else's fault that some players have such a raging hard on for efficiency and DPS that they can't resist constantly pressing the big red nuke button. This problem isn't exclusive to ash. It applies to basically all frames with high dmg ults. Hell it applies to most frames regardless.

On the plus side its nice to have someone complaining about something being OP rather then useless.

Edited by StinkyPygmy
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Okay, I'm gonna put my two cents into here.

Honestly?  I've had Ash for a while, and it is currently one of my favorite frames.  I see no problems with its abilities with the way I play (though I try my hardest not to actually get detected, which is both the whole point of Ash and something that doesn't seem to be done often in Public Groups from my experience), though I do admit that there's always some things that could use some change. 

 

Strangely enough, though, Blade Storm is one of my least-used abilities; I've been thinking of switching it out for something else or taking it out entirely so I can focus on maxing out everything else on my Ash.

 

If I do have to use Blade Storm, it's usually in emergencies (i.e. getting swarmed by Infested or needing to clear an area really quickly so I can revive a teammate or escape a situation that I can't normally get out of with Smokescreen*).  Other than that, my weapons (ranged or melee) seem to do the job themselves, leaving no need for Blade Storm.

 

So while I do not agree with the notion that Ash has become a "spam 4 to win" Warframe, I do think that it doesn't get a whole lot of love from the folks over at DE, who seem to be more focused on working on the more popular frames (i.e. Frost, Rhino, Mirage, etc.) for now.  And while I do not wish to rush them (because rushed work never means anything good in the end), I do agree that they should at least review Ash's abilities to see how they could improve them.

 

For example, I do not see Teleport as that useful of an ability in a wide variety of situations.  The only time I've ever used it when I had it on my Ash Warframe is to revive teammates, and most of the time I'm close enough that I could do so without using Teleport in the first place. Perhaps they could replace it with something else while still keeping to the "ninja of the shadows" theme?

 

...So yeah.  There's my two cents. 

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All I am saying is that his 4 is good enough to be used in situations his 1, 2, and 3 are good for; 4 is better than 1 at killing; 4 can clear an area instead of hiding with 2; and 4 can kill without needing to close-gap with 3. His other 3 abilities are lacking and need to be looked at. Either nerf 4, or change his other abilities to be useful rather than just very situational as they are. With the current Ash, I only need to have 4 and have 3 extra slots for mods. He is a 1 trick pony. Refusing to use 4 is like refusing to put mods on guns.

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Auto targeting 20 meters

 

18 enemies take 6.9k damage over 6 seconds

 

2k FINISHER damage + 4.9k bleed

 

I do not believe there is any other ability that compares

 

Its not as much as being "Messed up" its that he was buffed to the point of being considered for a nerf

 

With max power range he gets 47meter search radius and still does 2.7k damage per target which is more than most frames can say

 

Max efficiency has no drawbacks

 

He is also invulnerable for the whole duration.

 

Duration mods do not increase number of targets which i guess is intentional drawback, 

 

Not suggesting anything to make this skill more overpowered,

 

but skills that have multiple builds or ways to upgrade themselves are way more interactive and give more options, which I love

 

I love that Vauban's vortex can now have 130% range boost for example, instead of all efficient/duration builds

 

That just split vauban community into those with longer lasting vortexes/those with vortexes covering huge parts of map

 

Honestly, though, Saryn with max power strength does a whopping 4.2 damage while ash does 7k without modding

 

Mprime does 1.6k per enemy which requires 5 enemies to all die in instantly to equal ash's skill

 

Vauban does a whopping 50 per tick magnetic damage....

 

the only person on my mind who can equal that is Ember at 12k over 10 seconds or 1.2k per sec

 

Ash would do something like 1.15k per sec

 

My problem: Ash bypasses shield and is immortal while using the skill note that he is pretty tanky

 

Ember does fire damage and has to survive 10 seconds as a fragile frame

 

Fire damage crazily drops against non-infested with armour scaling...

Edited by Refrus
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