Meta, What Do You Think?

[HAYABU5A]

player skill > weapon stats 

 

= noobs rely on min-maxing to be effective at games

 

elite pro players can be effective with any weapon

 

so your saying chinese culture encourages everyone to be noobs ? interesting 

[Hamco.io]

Some people like to be overpowered as fk. This community caters to a variety of players, from Casuals to Hardcores. Expect to see min-maxers. I'm also a min-maxer, but I prefer to use less-appreciated weapons for end-game, such as Lanka and Dread. Though, you can never go wrong with Brakk or Dakra Prime. :)

 

Oh yeah, Crimson Dervish makes ANY Longsword good. Just saying.

 

If you are saying yourself being a min-maxer then I think I might be one too...:P

 

I just love using those "not-so-popular-like-soma-or-boltor-prime" weapon to run my end game (and yep, I'm a big fan of shotguns), and I personally feel that they are fine, not OP but good enough not to be "crap".

 

And I agree with that, CD is just a bit too much, but I can't really say I hate using it on my Dakra Prime. I actually felt like a Chinese swordman in crouching tiger & hidden dragon, especially with those park hour moves...mmmmm :D

[Semshol]

First of all, I'm a Chinese, and what I saw can't really represent the whole nation of China or the whole community of WF players....

 

But seriously, no matter where I go (forum both English and Chinese ones, different clan chats, even wiki discussion), I can see people rating a weapon/frame as crap because they are not as good as those "best" ones out there (quick example, Detron is a pretty decent weapon by itself but there are a whole lot of people commenting on it like "this is just crap comparing to Brakk/Despair"). And because of that, I couldn't stay in any clan for more than a week, having people talking like that just simply drives me nuts.

 

So guys, is that just me, or is there any other people who also can't stand the way min-maxers comment on stuff? :(

 

Detron > Despair. Just thought you all ought to know that, the Despair is a piece of crap actually. I once believed in it, till I did my own testing.

 

Point is, trust no one and do your own testing. AkBolto and AkMagnus > Most primaries by the way.

[shut]

What bothers me the most is when they go "Any expert/veteran will tell you that ____ sucks" about a certain item. I can understand this being said about guns with no redeeming factors whatsoever like the pre-buff Spectra, but more often than not, it's the Excalibur warframe that fills that blank.

 

Any time someone says this, I always assume that they're just trying to hop in onto the min-maxer wagon without truly understanding the way the game works. The way I see it, any "expert/veteran" in this game is fully aware of the fact that playstyle, and the user's skill in that playstyle, are every bit as important in an item's effectiveness as its raw stats. Most of the "min-maxers" that I see people complain about are the types of players who are good at crunching numbers but fail to realize that there's more to an item than the numbers on the loadout screen.

Edited September 3, 2014 by SortaRandom

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

and what's even more ironic is the fact that most of the prime gears do not have a huge mastery rank limit and people can get them from trading. Even gears can't represent your skill level now

It does represent your familiarity with the game though.

 

 

"allowed" seriously?

 

i regularly take my "underpowered" aklex with 5 forma, a dakra prime (non forma) and my loki prime. (no primary weapon) into t4 survival and defense and easily handle them until i get tired of playing and have to go do something else. (i'm an adult, responsibilities and all that, i don't get to spend more than about an hour at a time without being interrupted)

 

min-maxing isn't the only way to rate them either. as my example with the marelok was trying to highlight. some players are very effective with weapons i couldn't solo a t3 exterminate with even if i tried. some people just don't manage certain weapons well. others will do things with them that you'd never think was possible. that's where skill and "feel" come into play.

 

but thanks for highlighting exactly the type of attitude the OP was concerned about. having an example is always useful.

Loki/Prime is one of the most OP frames in the game.

 

I wreck face with the Marelok.  It is one of the top five pistols in the game.

 

 

player skill > weapon stats 

 

= noobs rely on min-maxing to be effective at games

 

elite pro players can be effective with any weapon

 

so your saying chinese culture encourages everyone to be noobs ? interesting 

That is a scrub excuse for why they don't min-max.  Even if a pro could do "okay" with crap gear, it just means they would do even better with the best gear.

[Semshol]

If you are saying yourself being a min-maxer then I think I might be one too...:P

 

I just love using those "not-so-popular-like-soma-or-boltor-prime" weapon to run my end game (and yep, I'm a big fan of shotguns), and I personally feel that they are fine, not OP but good enough not to be "crap".

 

And I agree with that, CD is just a bit too much, but I can't really say I hate using it on my Dakra Prime. I actually felt like a Chinese swordman in crouching tiger & hidden dragon, especially with those park hour moves...mmmmm :D

 

Most true pros don't use Boltor Prime/SOma

 

Latron Prime outdps's both. Boar Prime wrecks both as well because of CC capabilities.

 

Boltor Prime is ONLY viable against Grinner because of Bane and 4 element combo and viral proc.

 

Grakata has POTENTIALLY higher damage than Soma because it can rapid proc corrosive, but I haven't tested this.

 

So yeah...tons of weapons are bad-&#!, Soma Prime is all I want though. The regular Soma is not good enough.

[Wurdyburd]

A good portion of min-maxing is just pure numbers math, which is fine for games like CoD and such, where nearly all guns can be held side by side and compared for highest damage output. What causes angst among min-max communities is the concept of inequivalencies, weapons and abilities that can't be compared because as apples to oranges, sometimes the true effectiveness of a feature can't be measured on the same scale as other features. For example, the new Nukor has great use at being a pocket-Nyx, and rad-proc'ing every enemy into fighting each other, something the Soma can never compare with.

I've seen [what I consider] an absurd amount of players nay-saying the Dread, because though you can get decently high numbers from it, 'the fire rate and chance you'll hit something makes it terrible for endgame', and 'the numbers can't be buffed high enough'. Which I personally find ridiculous. I tend to excel at reading trajectories of bullet-drop weapons, so I can make great use of the Dread, even at "high-level content". On the other hand, I can't stand the Soma, despite it's high damage output. I end up unloading tons of ammo into enemies, missing a lot, and end up having to use an ammo refill just to keep shooting.

 

Long and the short of it, play with what you're good with, and what fits your playstyle. Forcing yourself to use the Marelok if you don't enjoy how it plays will only net you maybe 80% efficiency compared to somebody with a similar build who truly loves how it plays.

[Hamco.io]

player skill > weapon stats 

 

= noobs rely on min-maxing to be effective at games

 

elite pro players can be effective with any weapon

 

so your saying chinese culture encourages everyone to be noobs ? interesting 

 

Hm...interesting theory...

 

But what I meant is that Chinese culture makes people to follow the majority without trying out the thing themselves. "Everyone says its good so it can't go wrong" kind of mindset. 

 

Again, I'm only representing myself, I really can't say anything more about how other people think cause I am not. :D

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Hm...interesting theory...

 

But what I meant is that Chinese culture makes people to follow the majority without trying out the thing themselves. "Everyone says its good so it can't go wrong" kind of mindset. 

 

Again, I'm only representing myself, I really can't say anything more about how other people think cause I am not. :D

That is not limited to China.  Most humans have a sheep mentality by their very nature.

[Hamco.io]

Detron > Despair. Just thought you all ought to know that, the Despair is a piece of crap actually. I once believed in it, till I did my own testing.

 

Point is, trust no one and do your own testing. AkBolto and AkMagnus > Most primaries by the way.

Honestly I have neither (and no Brakk too, they just simply don't want to see me). But my point is that I don't think any weapon deserves the "crap" title, even MK-1 can be useful (mastery I guess?).

 

And I love AkMagnus too! :D

[Yazeth]

Latron Prime outdps's both. 

Can't get a build that out-dps Boltor Prime though. Are you including head shots? If not, what kind of build you are using? I'm pretty interested (dunno why you would care about dps on a semi-auto wep though).

 

Nvm. Was able to figure out how to out-dps Boltor Prime. 

 

Also.

AkBolto and AkMagnus > Most primaries by the way.

^This. So true.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Yazeth

[C.Aether]

Hm...interesting theory...

 

But what I meant is that Chinese culture makes people to follow the majority without trying out the thing themselves. "Everyone says its good so it can't go wrong" kind of mindset. 

 

Again, I'm only representing myself, I really can't say anything more about how other people think cause I am not. :D

Basically you can call it Mainstream,and it actually happens everywhere.

[fatpig84]

Detron > Despair. Just thought you all ought to know that, the Despair is a piece of crap actually. I once believed in it, till I did my own testing.

 

Point is, trust no one and do your own testing. AkBolto and AkMagnus > Most primaries by the way.

 

I use despair a good portion of the time cos I like it.

[thececilmaster]

Detron > Despair. Just thought you all ought to know that, the Despair is a piece of crap actually. I once believed in it, till I did my own testing.

Point is, trust no one and do your own testing. AkBolto and AkMagnus > Most primaries by the way.

I remember the days when the Despair were better than anything else out there, and the Paris was one of the best bows. Ah, Damage 1.0, how I sometimes miss a few things about you...

Edit:

Also, why does no-one give respect to the AkVasto? Their beautiful and I love them, and if you even think about trying to take them from me, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you.

Edited September 3, 2014 by thececilmaster

[Hamco.io]

Basically you can call it Mainstream,and it actually happens everywhere.

 

Hmm, alright, then that's not limited to China then. :P

 

But what about the attitude towards non-mainstream? Far as I know there are Chinese people are very aggressive towards people trying to be out of the mainstream (I had to deal with one of those guys once, they went extremely aggressive when I expressed my interest of being non-mainstream player and tell me to eat S#*^ because eating meal is just too mainstream). Wasn't a good memory for me :(

[ThePredicament]

Yes, those that cite min/max stats and/or DPSframe for weapon ranking are ridiculous but that's what separates the actual pros from the "pros". No, min/maxing is not a noob crutch to be "effective" at the game because that's complete bullocks. You really think a noob is going to spend time to make four or more formas and level that weapon four or more times? NO.

 

Yes, ranking does mean something but not skill. People who have ranked up enough know their gear enough to max them to at least level 30, some weapons are just in lower tiers than others, this is learned through their effectiveness, building up the gear familiarizes people with not just the equipped weapon but those weapon types. This is also where the noobs and vets are separated also, they know what will do what and properly, crit builds, proc builds, etc.

 

What's more annoying than min/max preachers are those that thing "low tier" automatically means crap. The very ones that vehemently defend their frame often talking crap about other frames. It's worse, it's built on ignorance. There is a "tier" list because the weapons weren't meant to be all equal, some are linearly better than others because they were made for higher levels/planets in the game, it doesn't mean a properly built Grakata is going to be useless in game but it also means it's not going to go that far either.

 

Also, Despair is not crap.

[Arabaxus]

I am a min-maxer. Anything powerful I'll put a bunch of Forma and try to go for DPS. Doesn't mean I can't have fun.

 

I've also "min-maxed" a Hydroid, albeit only 2 Forma. I still play my Galatine in low level missions, and I have a pair of Catalyzed AKBroncos.

 

It is indeed a way for me to have fun, because I find progression necessary in any MMO I play, and min-maxing, or striving for it, is one of the motivators that keeps me playing, albeit not recently because the recent changes I mostly do not agree with on principle. 

 

However, I can also respect if someone who doesn't want to play "the best" things, because I can understand that some players enjoy playing those things. I cannot say the same about the players who always whine "nerf this nerf that" without regards to other players who may enjoy them though.

 

Coincidentally, I am also Chinese. Traditional Chinese family environment has been sort of a real life "min-maxing", for the best, most efficient things on paper. Many Chinese parents want a male child since it is easier for a male child to make it further in Chinese society. Call me sexist but it's been proven through statistics. They encourage their child to study as hard as possible, strive for perfect grades, get specific jobs, like stereotypcial lawyer, doctor, etc. because they are secure and well paying job. Think of this as min-maxers going for highest, on paper DPS. They ignore things like a child's mental health, physical health to an extent (little time is spent outside exercising and playing as healthy children should), and what I like to believe as a child's right to a childhood. (Think of this as min-maxers ignoring utility, "fun", and whatever other reasons you and I may not use the "best" on paper weapons). 

 

It's not only a coincidence, it's kind of Chinese human nature, to be perfectly honest. I don't put it past them, what works for them may work for them, but may not work for me and you. Either way we should respect their choices of how to play, whether or not they respect ours.

[xethier]

Hm...interesting theory...

 

But what I meant is that Chinese culture makes people to follow the majority without trying out the thing themselves. "Everyone says its good so it can't go wrong" kind of mindset. 

 

Again, I'm only representing myself, I really can't say anything more about how other people think cause I am not. :D

 

a common term for that is known as "group think" and it's prevalent in one form or another in almost every gaming community i've seen since the 80's. nationality notwithstanding. (it's also prevalent in the extreme in IT communities in general, working @ google was a fine example of that for me)

[Hamco.io]

I remember the days when the Despair were better than anything else out there, and the Paris was one of the best bows. Ah, Damage 1.0, how I sometimes miss a few things about you...

Edit:

Also, why does no-one give respect to the AkVasto? Their beautiful and I love them, and if you even think about trying to take them from me, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you.

I joined the game on the beginning of U14 so...really having no idea about damage 1.0, sorry.

 

But yea, AkVasto looks absolutely bad@&& and I enjoy using them too!!

[holdenagincourt]

true pros

 

Oh dear.

[C.Aether]

Hmm, alright, then that's not limited to China then. :P

 

But what about the attitude towards non-mainstream? Far as I know there are Chinese people are very aggressive towards people trying to be out of the mainstream (I had to deal with one of those guys once, they went extremely aggressive when I expressed my interest of being non-mainstream player and tell me to eat S#*^ because eating meal is just too mainstream). Wasn't a good memory for me :(

Still the same,it happens everywhere.

Some people are just too stubborn and lazy to try non-mainstream stuff.

[Semshol]

I remember the days when the Despair were better than anything else out there, and the Paris was one of the best bows. Ah, Damage 1.0, how I sometimes miss a few things about you...

Edit:

Also, why does no-one give respect to the AkVasto? Their beautiful and I love them, and if you even think about trying to take them from me, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you.

 

Forgot about the AkVasto because I don't like Slash damage type (personal thing), it has the same DPS as AkMAgnus at about 31k so yeah, it's pretty wrecky too. But AkMagnus has INSANE status proc which just makes you feel great.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Semshol

[thececilmaster]

 

I joined the game on the beginning of U14 so...really having no idea about damage 1.0, sorry.

 

But yea, AkVasto looks absolutely bad@&& and I enjoy using them too!!

Damage 1.0 was broken. Very much so. It needed to be fixed, and they did a decent job with Damage 2.0. Often, veterans will reference some fun things from those days, and mention how awesome things like Despair and Paris were. I'm one of those people.

 

On Topic:

Min/maxing can be fun for many people, as has been stated. I'm one of those individuals who enjoys it, but doesn't enjoy it nearly as much as having fun with whatever I feel like grabbing. My favorite longsword is the Mire, and was the Mire prior to attaining Crimson Dervish - because it's flipping awesome and it looks amazing. I like killing people with a giant bacon sword, so sue me. I'll be more than happy to kill you with my bacon sword if you need me to.

Also, Paris is better than Paris Prime. It's prettier, it sounds better, and it's prettier. Thus, I find it more fun (I tend to Dread, however, since it is the best of both worlds).

[C.Aether]

Forgot about the AkVasto because I don't like Slash damage type (personal thing), it has the same DPS as AkMAgnus at about 31k so yeah, it's pretty wrecky too. But AkMagnus has INSANE status proc which just makes you feel great.

At least akvasto looks cooler.

Cowboy Ninja play free.

[Semshol]

At least akvasto looks cooler.

Cowboy Ninja play free.

 

I like the Magnus because it looks like a Magnum to me and I always ask if the enemy feels lucky versus my Status Proc rate >:)