This Is Not How Shotguns Work

[(PSN)Hooligonzo]

I have less of a problem that there is damage drop-off, but that it's so severe.

 

The math of it is way too clean.  The drop-off starts too early and the damage diminishes entirely too rapidly.

 

Really, there are so many decent assault rifles to out-gun the shotguns, I wonder why they're concerned with having drop-off at all.  Even within the assault rifle class there are rifles that need to be brought up, since Boltor Prime and a precious few others are leading the pack by entire lengths, so it's especially relevant for the entire shotgun class that it be elevated some. 

Edited September 6, 2014 by (PS4)Hooligantuan

[(PSN)Crackle2012]

Aside from all of the mod balance discussions etc... - (I don't have a problem with tainted shell) -  I have to say I 100% agree with the Op's suggestion.  I would also very much like to see the drawback of shotguns simply be the "spread" instead of "spread" & damage fall off.  If a shotgun is made to shoot with a very tight spread for a very long distance, then if need be just add damage fall off to that individual shotgun.

 

That said, I don't think they are useless in their current state either as "most" of them have pretty nasty damage upclose for how quick some of them fire and alot of them have higher status chances than most guns.  

 

Typically I like to run Saryn with Venom and a shotgun with either high radiation/fire or some other type of Crowd control status chance because its really hard to miss those spores when your spraying a spread of pelletes at the mob, typically I go fire just because the Blaze mod makes this really effective :-)

Edited September 6, 2014 by (PS4)Crackle2012
Typo

[BaSiLB]

+1

[HAYABU5A]

+1

would be great to use shotguns again

[VentiGlondi]

What is the point of tight-spread shotguns, if you can't use them at greater range?

We have assault rifles that are better snipers than snipers. But using shotgun from a range? NAAAHHH

Edited September 6, 2014 by VentiGlondi

[UncommonUnicorn]

Again, the damage dropoff was added as a balance mechanism.

Remove it and everybody will be using Brakk exclusively.

 

As for damage drop-off iRL: just how slow would a projectile have to travel initially for it to even occur?

A Vintarez's bullets can penetrate infantry helmets at ranges of up to 400m and that's using subsonic bullets (280-320m/s projectiles).

So realistically; it won't happen at ranged found within the game.

 

As such, we have to look at it as a balancing mechanism, and if it performs that job adequately.

At to an extend it does; no-one is playing sniper with hek anymore.

[VentiGlondi]

Again, the damage dropoff was added as a balance mechanism.

Remove it and everybody will be using Brakk exclusively.

Why would all the shotguns be crap because of Brakk? Why were broncos and detron unaffected?

Why is having everyone use Brakk bad, but having everyone use Boltor Prime alright?

 

As such, we have to look at it as a balancing mechanism, and if it performs that job adequately.

No, it does its job terribly.

[Ragemonstar]

I am not sure what is more detrimental, the extreme dropoff or the comically exaggerated spread.

 

Here is a video showing shotgun spread, he's at a distance of at least 20m and the vast majority of the shots hit their targets. 

 

Skip to 4:24 for lulz

 

[JohnnyTopside]

+1 to OP. Movies and video games have really exaggerated how people view shotguns and trench guns. My biggest problem with shotguns is the falloff. I don't want to be sniping people with my shotgun, but I want to be effective at more than 10 meters. For things that hit like a TRUCK, like the Brakk, the falloff is not that much of a problem, and I would argue actually does what it's intended, at least at mid - high level by effectively limiting it's range. It's damage can be so high that even once the falloff really starts taking effect, it still has teeth. However, I feel that it really hinders all the other weapons in the category.

 

I think the real key here is just to directly tweak the damage and spread, rather than having a one-size-fits-all "fix". Heck, why not just give them a reasonably small damage per pellet and multiply the damage on a single target when he's hit by additional pellets in the same barrage? A single pellet wouldn't be a major deal, which is what you'd be taking at long range, if any, ideally. Long range being open to discussion. Up close, though, 5 or 10 or 15 pellets? Hope you didn't like that spleen.

[Dasmir]

it's just to nerf shotguns

shotguns do more dps than rifles if they are up close

 

Unless you are kissing a grinner face shotguns will do less damage than a rifle becouse weakpoints/headshots.

 

 

Why would all the shotguns be crap because of Brakk? Why were broncos and detron unaffected?

Why is having everyone use Brakk bad, but having everyone use Boltor Prime alright?

 

No, it does its job terribly.

 

Both are terrible weapons and should be deleted from the game or nerfed to hell (looking at you too dragon nikana and crimson dervish)

 

Anyway DE got a lot of reply about increasing the spread instead of damage fall off the thing  is was too complicated for DE and was more easy the damage reduction.

 

That was the end of Hek....

Edited September 6, 2014 by Dasmir

[Seanjuju]

I didn't like DE's reasoning that they added falloff because "You shouldn't be able to snipe with a shotgun" when there is no instance in which you shoot at such a range. Enough of that excuse.

[AllanIncubi]

Honestly its not a bad idea but I dont agree. I still believe shotguns need BOTH drop off and spread but would have to depend on the weapon iself. If the weapon has a more longer barrel than I believe the drop off should be further away and if the barrel is shorter it should have a closer drop off. I still dont have a problem with shotguns at all seeing how if I plan to use them most likely, seeing how the game is fast pace, the enemy will be in my face or ill be close enough for the drop off to not matter. This is not a game where it should be realistic weapons ranges since the areas are too small but I like how shotguns work currently I have no problems I still run boar prime, strun wraith, drakgoon, hek and sobek often and still feel nothing wrong with them since I know they should not be shot 40+ meters away

[Gedden]

+1. God forbid if we can get away sniping with the Soma, we can't have shotguns doing any damage beyond 30m.

[RX-74]

All dakka and no boom-shaka-laka makes Tenno a dull boy.

[cuzquitow]

Nooooo. Just use a sniper. I'm fine with my strun. And if I want to use a shotgun, I want to be close, make holes, bloooooooood, see enemies flying <3

[Mak_Gohae]

Not everyone is aware of the fact that shotguns suffer from both drop-off damage AND spread. In real life a shotguns pellets "drop off" in damage just as slowly as other standard bullet-using weapons. 

 

A bullet must travel a very far distance in order to slow down enough for it to "drop off" in damage. Same goes for shotguns. Yet shotguns have been turned into largely unattractive weapons (with the boar prime as an exception) due to this unjustified drop off damage. I remember the good 'ol days when shotguns were actually viable. Not OP, not metaphorical Somas, just viable. That was before drop off damage. 

 

Obviously, I would like to see drop off damage removed from shotguns. It is a fair proposal, and would allow for the shotgun category to be more commonly used. Keep in mind spread already does a good job of preventing shotguns from excelling at long rage. Having both at once just makes all shotguns that aren't insanely powerful at close range unappealing as yo must essentially be point blank in order to do decent damage.

 

 

In real life a thousand years in the future this is how shotgun works.

Obviously the technology and other factors have changed in all this time and what you are seeing here are not current time shotguns.

[VentiGlondi]

I didn't like DE's reasoning that they added falloff because "You shouldn't be able to snipe with a shotgun" when there is no instance in which you shoot at such a range. Enough of that excuse.

If you're not supposed to snipe with a shotgun, then why does it have tight spread in the first place?

[http404error]

All dakka and no boom-shaka-laka makes Tenno a dull boy.

 

The truth, right here folks.

[Terrornaut]

I wish DE would just do one monthly weapon/frame balance pass. First patch of the month or something.  Spend more time on it than they do.  They crunched a lot of weapons out of existence and continued to release subpar ones (I still ask why the tigris can't be as good in its class as its cousins, soma and vectis)...

I'd rather see spread increase marginally and get rid of the dropoff, or boost the damage much more on shotguns overall.  They're in this sorry state right now, where the phage and boar prime are the only real competing shotguns.

 

They're my favorite class of weapons and I barely use them in this game.

[EvanTheNewbie]

I would imagine that being shot with a shotgun up close hurts more than being shot a bit away... Which is why I have this to suggest: Instead of damage falling off, there should be a multiplier instead. If you're really, really close, damage is multiplied by 2.0, if they're a bit further away, say 15 meters, 1.5 damage,  and 15+ meters, 1.0 damage.

[Eric1738]

I would imagine that being shot with a shotgun up close hurts more than being shot a bit away... Which is why I have this to suggest: Instead of damage falling off, there should be a multiplier instead. If you're really, really close, damage is multiplied by 2.0, if they're a bit further away, say 15 meters, 1.5 damage,  and 15+ meters, 1.0 damage.

but isnt that due to the SPREAD of shotguns, not fall-off

[Lukedu_]

Shotguns got drop off because they were too good, but that was before we had things like the Soma and the Boltor Prime. DE fixed one problem and then just OP'd the crap out of everything else.

[Llyssa]

I'm not entirely sure what game you're playing. The shotguns are fantastic. Three of the most popular(and effective) guns in the game are shotties(phage, boar prime, drakgoon). There's a few "okay" shotties, and they're great for their close-range design, and still quite strong at mid-range combat.

 

I don't remember the days when shotguns were "viable, but not OP, right before the drop-off nerf". Mainly because it never happened. Everyone under the sun was toting a hek, and killing things across the map with it with ease, as the damage was stratospheric compared to the bows and snipers that were "meant" for long-range combat. When the shotgun has 3x the base damage of the rifles, and the same range and accuracy, there's no reason to dream of using the rifles. So nobody did. You either had a paris for the inherent multi-hit(single arrow hitting 4 people on a successful headshot), or you had a hek. That was the loadout, unless you were still toting your MK1.

 

I suppose, what they *could* do, is remove drop-off, and make each pellet do like 1/5th as much damage, so that they're properly balanced against the other weapons, but I'd rather have the drop-off and the damage boost than bonus range it doesn't need.

 

"In real life"(your pretense for requesting this), pellets do paltry damage by themselves, as they have very little mass, and, thus, no penetration. Even mild armor should(and does) completely negate a shotgun blast. So yeah, let's make it like "real life", and see how popular the 100% armor block on shotties is. Right?

[Sloan441]

Not sure I'd call the phage and drakgoon shotguns. They use shotgun mods, but perform rather differently than the other ingame shotties.

 

Lets not get too carried away by what shotguns actually do in Real Life. The fact is they're very limited weapons only useful for a few narrow fields of endeavor. This is a game. Stuff is supposed to be fun and only reference the real thing as flavor. I think the present guns mostly do that pretty well--even the execrable bows.

[Llyssa]

Not sure I'd call the phage and drakgoon shotguns. They use shotgun mods, but perform rather differently than the other ingame shotties.

 

Lets not get too carried away by what shotguns actually do in Real Life. The fact is they're very limited weapons only useful for a few narrow fields of endeavor. This is a game. Stuff is supposed to be fun and only reference the real thing as flavor. I think the present guns mostly do that pretty well--even the execrable bows.

Oh, definitely on game stuff being game stuff. Just, the supposed reason the OP offered for "why this should change" was "how shotguns work in real life". Which, while a pellet doesn't lose energy for a massive distance, it also has no meaningful penetration, thanks to the laws of physics--otherwise the armies of the world would be using a rendition of boar prime, rather than a rendition of soma. I prefer our fantastical variation.

 

Also, while it is true that phage and drakgoon aren't quite "hitscan scatter", they have all the other shotgun properties--spread of multiple hits that has a definite fall off range. They look different, but play by the same rules. With the proposed change, imagine a phage with infinite range. mmmmmm. Infinite range phage. *drools slightly*