This Is Not How Shotguns Work

[Sloan441]

Actually, energy dropoff on pellets is pretty damned quick. Even rather substantial shot--like OOO--only has an effective range of about 25yds.

 

Pellets are a poor ballistic shape and they do shed energy quickly, hence low penetration. High pellet count means more hits, but less energy/pellet. Energy being the ability to do work, that work being deformation of the projectile and the target, etc., etc.

 

Then there's the matter of slugs and what kind: Foster, Brenneke, sabot--all perform differently and have a particular niche in the greater scheme of things shotgun. Then there's specialty ammo (where the shottie's real purpose is) for door breaching, less than lethal...and...you see where all this is going.

 

People seem to feel shotguns underperform and there is some justification of this. Most of the more traditional shotguns are old and have suffered from the power creep endemic to this sort of game. I personally feel the real issue is the shotgun base damage mod. It's very low compared to other primary mods. I think a boost here would go a long ways in getting shotguns some more of the "thump" in the game that people seem to want.

[Tails-san]

Not everyone is aware of the fact that shotguns suffer from both drop-off damage AND spread. In real life a shotguns pellets "drop off" in damage just as slowly as other standard bullet-using weapons. 

 

Those rates of energy loss look to be pretty significantly different. The Shotguns lost a significatly larger portion of their energy at 50 yards than the rifles lost at 100 yards.

 

If you prefer the physics behind it, the bullets are significantly more aerodynamic than shotgun pellets, meaning that they have less drag, and also have more mass, meaning they have more inertia.

 

 

Now, that's not to say that warframe's drop-off isn't overdone, but to claim it to be completely unrealistic is untrue. 

[http404error]

I'm not entirely sure what game you're playing. The shotguns are fantastic. Three of the most popular(and effective) guns in the game are shotties(phage, boar prime, drakgoon). There's a few "okay" shotties, and they're great for their close-range design, and still quite strong at mid-range combat.

 

I don't remember the days when shotguns were "viable, but not OP, right before the drop-off nerf". Mainly because it never happened. Everyone under the sun was toting a hek, and killing things across the map with it with ease, as the damage was stratospheric compared to the bows and snipers that were "meant" for long-range combat. When the shotgun has 3x the base damage of the rifles, and the same range and accuracy, there's no reason to dream of using the rifles. So nobody did. You either had a paris for the inherent multi-hit(single arrow hitting 4 people on a successful headshot), or you had a hek. That was the loadout, unless you were still toting your MK1.

 

I suppose, what they *could* do, is remove drop-off, and make each pellet do like 1/5th as much damage, so that they're properly balanced against the other weapons, but I'd rather have the drop-off and the damage boost than bonus range it doesn't need.

 

"In real life"(your pretense for requesting this), pellets do paltry damage by themselves, as they have very little mass, and, thus, no penetration. Even mild armor should(and does) completely negate a shotgun blast. So yeah, let's make it like "real life", and see how popular the 100% armor block on shotties is. Right?

 

Phage and Drakgoon have no damage drop-off. They're not really relevant. Haven't gotten Boar Prime yet, so I can't comment on that.

 

"Viable, but not OP" didn't happen at the time, correct. However, we didn't have Soma back then either. Shotguns are far from OP right now. Ditching or mitigating drop-off might actually be reasonable with the current power level of weapons. Note: I'm not a fan of the current power level of weapons, but that's beyond this discussion.

 

Base damage doesn't factor in rate of fire, which is a big draw for automatic rifles over shotguns. Yes, Hek used to be dominant. That is no longer the case, thanks in part to new even more dominant weapons, and arguably, in part, to dropoff.

 

You're correct that emulating real life isn't the goal we should have. Balancing the game is.

Edited September 7, 2014 by http404error

[00zau]

It's pretty well known that shotguns don't have damage drop off in real life, but they also don't have nearly as much spread. Shotguns in games have wide chokes and damage drop off to make them behave differently from a rifle. Without those unrealistic changes, a semi-auto shotty and a semi-auto rifle would have little to differentiate them.

[Mokkania]

I'm not entirely sure what game you're playing. The shotguns are fantastic. Three of the most popular(and effective) guns in the game are shotties(phage, boar prime, drakgoon). There's a few "okay" shotties, and they're great for their close-range design, and still quite strong at mid-range combat.

"most popular(and effective) guns" is kinda vague and phage and drakgoon are not concerned by what the subject is here.

Fantastic is strange to say,

 

I suppose, what they *could* do, is remove drop-off, and make each pellet do like 1/5th as much damage, so that they're properly balanced against the other weapons,

Seems like an idea you properly pondered, why not try it?

 

"In real life"(your pretense for requesting this), pellets do paltry damage by themselves, as they have very little mass, and, thus, no penetration. Even mild armor should(and does) completely negate a shotgun blast. So yeah, let's make it like "real life", and see how popular the 100% armor block on shotties is. Right?

Real life argument isn't the most bright thing but falloff isn't that much brighter, in my case especially what I think strange with shotguns is when some of them shoot through the ennemy when you're too close so it become a game where you can't be neither too close nor too far, good one. (though the problem is elsewhere.)

Anyway the normal basis for shotgun is impact damage, for rifles penetration and for melees slash damage, think you can understand what it implies.

[Sloan441]

Man, some of you people have no clue what ballistics are.

 

Shotguns are pretty much ineffectual with shot past 25yds. Some of it's lack of energy (birdshot), some due to low pattern density since you have to use relatively large shot (.30-.35 caliber) to have any worthwhile energy at those distances. Slugs are a different matter, but then we run into accuracy issues and recoil.

 

It's not simple to model all this stuff and we are playing a game, not a gunfight simulator.

[Noble_Cactus]

Actually, energy dropoff on pellets is pretty damned quick. Even rather substantial shot--like OOO--only has an effective range of about 25yds.

Pellets are a poor ballistic shape and they do shed energy quickly, hence low penetration. High pellet count means more hits, but less energy/pellet. Energy being the ability to do work, that work being deformation of the projectile and the target, etc., etc.

Then there's the matter of slugs and what kind: Foster, Brenneke, sabot--all perform differently and have a particular niche in the greater scheme of things shotgun. Then there's specialty ammo (where the shottie's real purpose is) for door breaching, less than lethal...and...you see where all this is going.

People seem to feel shotguns underperform and there is some justification of this. Most of the more traditional shotguns are old and have suffered from the power creep endemic to this sort of game. I personally feel the real issue is the shotgun base damage mod. It's very low compared to other primary mods. I think a boost here would go a long ways in getting shotguns some more of the "thump" in the game that people seem to want.

There's that, and there's also the general feeling of the shotguns. Even when you're thumping Lv10s on Apollodorus, the death animations don't match up with the supposed power you're putting out. A point-blank blast just causes the Grineer to stumble and fall over, as if all I had done was toss some pebbles at their chest. Meanwhile, Boltor Prime and the bows send corpses flying 100 yards across a hallway.

Overall, the shotguns would feel better if they sent corpses sprawling a few yards. Nothing dramatic, but enough to make you feel like your boomstick is putting in work.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[http404error]

There's that, and there's also the general feeling of the shotguns. Even when you're thumping Lv10s on Apollodorus, the death animations don't match up with the supposed power you're putting out. A point-blank blast just causes the Grineer to stumble and fall over, as if all I had done was toss some pebbles at their chest. Meanwhile, Boltor Prime and the bows send corpses flying 100 yards across a hallway.

Overall, the shotguns would feel better if they sent corpses sprawling a few yards. Nothing dramatic, but enough to make you feel like your boomstick is putting in work.

 

Fun fact: before Damage 2.0, shotguns actually did this to some extent. The "Shotgun" damage type was treated the same as bullet for the most part, but would cause enemies to noticeably get knocked back by the blasts. I think it might have also staggered, if memory serves correctly.

[Dasmir]

There's that, and there's also the general feeling of the shotguns. Even when you're thumping Lv10s on Apollodorus, the death animations don't match up with the supposed power you're putting out. A point-blank blast just causes the Grineer to stumble and fall over, as if all I had done was toss some pebbles at their chest. Meanwhile, Boltor Prime and the bows send corpses flying 100 yards across a hallway.

Overall, the shotguns would feel better if they sent corpses sprawling a few yards. Nothing dramatic, but enough to make you feel like your boomstick is putting in work.

 

Well time to mode Blast damage...

[Twistedsparkle]

so......small range buff?
Honestly speaking My shotguns work fantastic and I dont have major complaints
but the the damage falloff does show at higher levels

[(PSN)Roxas144]

 

Those rates of energy loss look to be pretty significantly different. The Shotguns lost a significatly larger portion of their energy at 50 yards than the rifles lost at 100 yards.

 

If you prefer the physics behind it, the bullets are significantly more aerodynamic than shotgun pellets, meaning that they have less drag, and also have more mass, meaning they have more inertia.

 

 

Now, that's not to say that warframe's drop-off isn't overdone, but to claim it to be completely unrealistic is untrue. 

Im not saying shotguns dont have more drop off then rifles... but really are you comparing bird shot to rifle rounds? 

[LukeAura]

I don't remember the days when shotguns were "viable, but not OP, right before the drop-off nerf". Mainly because it never happened. Everyone under the sun was toting a hek, and killing things across the map with it with ease, as the damage was stratospheric compared to the bows and snipers that were "meant" for long-range combat. When the shotgun has 3x the base damage of the rifles, and the same range and accuracy, there's no reason to dream of using the rifles. So nobody did. You either had a paris for the inherent multi-hit(single arrow hitting 4 people on a successful headshot), or you had a hek. That was the loadout, unless you were still toting your MK1.

 

"In real life"(your pretense for requesting this), pellets do paltry damage by themselves, as they have very little mass, and, thus, no penetration. Even mild armor should(and does) completely negate a shotgun blast. So yeah, let's make it like "real life", and see how popular the 100% armor block on shotties is. Right?

So the three most effective shotguns are,

Boar Prime, one of the most damage/dps heavy and prestigious weapons in the game. This is not a good balance point at all.

Phage, which has no fall off over its entire range of 25m(the same range as some beam rifles), whereas most fall off hampered shotguns are dealing worthless amounts of damage by 20m, and that's before factoring in spread. It isn't comparable to standard shotguns, and even out ranges them for meaningful damage.

And Drakgoon, which has no fall off at all. Doesn't at all reflect on shotguns. 

If everyone carried the Hek, a single shotgun, does that mean every shotgun needed to be nerfed? And still needs to be hampered in a game that is radically different now from then? We are getting map tiles and sets that are longer, wider, and more open, the damage scaling with armor has been changed entirely. The plethora of tight hallways of the early days isn't the standard game any more when fall off was implemented. It needs to be re-evaluated. 

That's why a lot of shotguns do impact damage, which as you can see, has reduced effectiveness versus armor, the others don't fire rounded pellets. Damage 2.0 already covers that idea. 

 

[AnonCat]

+1

[Marthrym]

Agreed. Drop-off is way overdone in warframe.

 

So the three most effective shotguns are,
Boar Prime, one of the most damage/dps heavy and prestigious weapons in the game. This is not a good balance point at all.
Phage, which has no fall off over its entire range of 25m(the same range as some beam rifles), whereas most fall off hampered shotguns are dealing worthless amounts of damage by 20m, and that's before factoring in spread. It isn't comparable to standard shotguns, and even out ranges them for meaningful damage.
And Drakgoon, which has no fall off at all. Doesn't at all reflect on shotguns. 

If everyone carried the Hek, a single shotgun, does that mean every shotgun needed to be nerfed? And still needs to be hampered in a game that is radically different now from then? We are getting map tiles and sets that are longer, wider, and more open, the damage scaling with armor has been changed entirely. The plethora of tight hallways of the early days isn't the standard game any more when fall off was implemented. It needs to be re-evaluated. 

That's why a lot of shotguns do impact damage, which as you can see, has reduced effectiveness versus armor, the others don't fire rounded pellets. Damage 2.0 already covers that idea. 


 

^This.

[Leland_Gaunt]

I agree with OP, shotguns need to be looked at badly!