Gas Damage Sucks Against Everything

[(PSN)Mhj-sab]

My issue is with the word "Effective". It does not suit the practical application. Gas is strong vs Infested. It deals bonus damage to Infested. But it is not effective against Infested. It is most effective against Tenno and Corpus even though it is not strong and does not deal bonus damage it is because it bypasses their shields. It is ineffective against Infested due to the abilities of other units in their faction.

The term EFFECTIVE in this case is used for a X element and the respective Faction-Unit they deal the MOST bonus damage to. That said, Gas deals 75% bonus damage to Infestation's infested units and thus, is Very effective to those, it also applies a 50% bonus damage to Infestation's FLESH units, meaning it's effective to those too.

[DirkDeadeye]

Because ODD, a high-level area, is totally the standard for the entire faction.

 

 

Kind of is, since like, they've been hidden away. I mean, isn't that the most commonly ran instance that features the infested other than exterminate, and invasions? This isn't like before where the infested were featured across the solar map.

[(PSN)Mhj-sab]

In my opinion what gas needs is a rework on it's proc, let go of the TOXIN AoE since GAS is made out of 2 elements in the game it makes no sense that it procs only ONE of the primary elements.

Maybe the gas clouds can.. I don't know, drastically lower enemies accuracy provided they can't properly breathe/focus inside a poisonous cloud (AND because they're supposed to be inside a GAS cloud they'd also have lower line of sight of what's going on around them and maybe keep a little bit of poison damage?)
At least it would be different than just being an AoE toxin. Anyway that's just IMO so... : D I don't know

Edit: OR this effect could disable aura-type buffs for a few seconds, even if not for a long period, would give the chance to take down the Ancient and/or make it actually effective against the actual Infested units it's effective against

Edited September 7, 2014 by (PS4)Mhj-sab

[Damagedice]

I love how people can sit down and look at the only element in the game to actually be capable of doing zero damage to something that isn't a phase-boss, and have it actually be a debate as to whether its useful. What on earth are you arguing? "When it isn't doing zero, it still kinda works!!" Yeah, okay, but what else even has to worry about ever doing zero? Seriously. At least let this thread go through so DE can consider allowing it to be on par for something other than the games most deletable enemies, if it isn't hitting outright zero. At least let that happen. Wth man.

 

I would think that gas should at least do like 25% more to ancients, and perhaps blast should do a little less in turn. Blast is already halved on the small ones, and any blast weapon has no real trouble having a huge base upon which to use another element anyway. 

Along with that, toxic ancients could still nullify toxin, without nullifying gas (this would still prevent gas' proc, which procs toxin, without making the gas damage itself pointless.

[Azawarau]

I love how people can sit down and look at the only element in the game to actually be capable of doing zero damage to something that isn't a phase-boss, and have it actually be a debate as to whether its useful. What on earth are you arguing? "When it isn't doing zero, it still kinda works!!" Yeah, okay, but what else even has to worry about ever doing zero? Seriously. At least let this thread go through so DE can consider allowing it to be on par for something other than the games most deletable enemies, if it isn't hitting outright zero. At least let that happen. Wth man.

I would think that gas should at least do like 25% more to ancients, and perhaps blast should do a little less in turn. Blast is already halved on the small ones, and any blast weapon has no real trouble having a huge base upon which to use another element anyway. 

Along with that, toxic ancients could still nullify toxin, without nullifying gas (this would still prevent gas' proc, which procs toxin, without making the gas damage itself pointless.

vv I have no idea how to get this out of my post.

How much thought did you put into this post

 

EDIT

 

Let me go into further detail

 

 

Umm, gas does 75% extra damage to light infested?

Edited September 7, 2014 by Azawarau

[RSITH]

Yea it does...

[Damagedice]

How much thought did you put into this post

Gas does bonus damage to the one set of enemies which pretty much dies to anything.

Imagine an element that only dealt damage to moas, which fell down to zero whenever they were shielded by an osprey. The osprey itself resists the element too.

Wow. Sounds bad. But im sure it sounds incredible to you. Radiation doesn't have to deal with that bs from grineer, corrosive doesnt have to deal with that bs on ancients, magnetic doesnt have to deal with that bs on corpus.

But hammer gas with one of the most ridiculous cripplings imaginable, doing less than an unmodded braton the moment the right enemy comes along, which is quite often, and its still good! Even if on the occasion there is no ancient, you couldve been using something else anyway and still have deleted the little guys.

But you're going to ignore that still, right? 

[(PSN)Mhj-sab]

I love how people can sit down and look at the only element in the game to actually be capable of doing zero damage to something that isn't a phase-boss, and have it actually be a debate as to whether its useful. What on earth are you arguing? "When it isn't doing zero, it still kinda works!!" Yeah, okay, but what else even has to worry about ever doing zero? Seriously. At least let this thread go through so DE can consider allowing it to be on par for something other than the games most deletable enemies, if it isn't hitting outright zero. At least let that happen. Wth man.

The thing is, like I said, Gas needs a rework in all areas, including it's proc. What is being pointed out by my part is that yes, as far as mechanics go, Gas is very effective against Infested units from Infestation. Ancients' auras do not change that fact, what it does change is gameplay/situation-wise, it nullifies Toxin AND gas damage. It's not about saying that "WOW! 75% bonus dmg to infested, I can ignore that it hits 0 most of the time now, what a great element!" it's about Acknowledging that YES it does deal a high ammount of bonus damage to those units but due to CIRCUMSTANCES (aka, occasional, yet very frequent, spawn of Toxic ancients) it's REAL effectiveness is greatly reduced, nullified.

On another note, the more replies this thread gets the more are the chances DE could pay attention to this (maybe?) so I don't see what's so bad about people actually makin a debate about it.

My conclusion: while on paper gas is extremely effective on killing the Infested units (so it's description "Very effective against infested" is CORRECT) the current effect of the Toxic ancient's aura contradicts that fact. While I'm all for using the proper elements focusing on taking down the TOUGHER units, doesn't change the fact that Gas indeed needs a bit of a rework.

[DPV111]

The term EFFECTIVE in this case is used for a X element and the respective Faction-Unit they deal the MOST bonus damage to. That said, Gas deals 75% bonus damage to Infestation's infested units and thus, is Very effective to those, it also applies a 50% bonus damage to Infestation's FLESH units, meaning it's effective to those too.

Dealing extra damage to an enemy does not make it more effective at killing that enemy if the damage is mitigated by that enemy's faction. Fire is more effective against them because the damage has a bonus and is not mitigated.

The effectiveness vs a single class is irrelevnt since you are fighting the entire faction, not just one class.

Edited September 8, 2014 by DPV111

[(PSN)Mhj-sab]

Dealing extra damage to an enemy does not make it more effective at killing that enemy if the damage is mitigated hy that enemy's faction. Fire is more effective against them because the damage has a bonus and is not mitigated.

The effectiveness vs a single class is irrelevnt since you are fighting the entire faction, not just one class.

I agree with you man, my point is that it is never mentioned by the Gas description (see pic at first post) that it's effective against the WHOLE faction. Besides, that can be applied the other way around too, it is effective against the weaker units and the tougher ones aren't resistant to it, only ONE unit within the faction makes it so the resistance happens, which is the Toxic Ancient. And like I've mentioned before, it is not worth it modding for the weaker units and everyone knows that, only as a secondary element.

It is like Viral damage in a sense, which has bonus damage to one health class, the difference in this case is that Grineer and Corpus have 2 different health classes so while one may have Armor they still have the Flesh. That is not the case for infested though, infested only got ONE health class each so the bonus of each element applies specificly to one type of unit.

[Azawarau]

Gas does bonus damage to the one set of enemies which pretty much dies to anything.

Imagine an element that only dealt damage to moas, which fell down to zero whenever they were shielded by an osprey. The osprey itself resists the element too.

Wow. Sounds bad. But im sure it sounds incredible to you. Radiation doesn't have to deal with that bs from grineer, corrosive doesnt have to deal with that bs on ancients, magnetic doesnt have to deal with that bs on corpus.

But hammer gas with one of the most ridiculous cripplings imaginable, doing less than an unmodded braton the moment the right enemy comes along, which is quite often, and its still good! Even if on the occasion there is no ancient, you couldve been using something else anyway and still have deleted the little guys.

But you're going to ignore that still, right?

Imagine dealing extra damage on an AoE against large crowds of enemies while stunlocking them

 

Are you going to ignore that?

Edited September 8, 2014 by Azawarau

[DPV111]

I agree with you man, my point is that it is never mentioned by the Gas description (see pic at first post) that it's effective against the WHOLE faction. Besides, that can be applied the other way around too, it is effective against the weaker units and the tougher ones aren't resistant to it, only ONE unit within the faction makes it so the resistance happens, which is the Toxic Ancient. And like I've mentioned before, it is not worth it modding for the weaker units and everyone knows that, only as a secondary element.

It is like Viral damage in a sense, which has bonus damage to one health class, the difference in this case is that Grineer and Corpus have 2 different health classes so while one may have Armor they still have the Flesh. That is not the case for infested though, infested only got ONE health class each so the bonus of each element applies specificly to one type of unit.

That is true. My issue as stated is that the term "effective" is arguably incorrect because it is not specific and therefor is untrue when applied practically.

Imagine dealing extra damage on an AoE against large crowds of enemies while stunlocking them

Are you going to ignore that?

Yes. After all, the enemies are ignoring the damage. Edited September 8, 2014 by DPV111

[APBladeX]

Just get rid of the damn ancient auras.

[Monolake]

RealPandemonium, on 07 Sept 2014 - 6:48 PM, said:

Status procs get a x4 damage multiplier on headshots. This combines with the x4 multiplier for a critical headshot to create huge damage, which allows something like a Lanka to remain effective against groups of Grineer despite having Gas damage.

Not happening. Pure gas Torid headshot: 200 aoe toxin

Seen procs do 2x, Im assuming they headshot

Lanka pure electric: http://i58.tinypic.com/2e58mc1.jpg

Get crit headshot - proc damage is calculated like crit headsot: 150 (50% of base dmg) x3.2(crit multi) x4(headshot crit multi) = 1920

And the same with gas: proc's damage has its own chance for 2x headshot looks like (yo Tenno, I heard you liked RNG...)

Edited September 8, 2014 by Monolake

[RealPandemonium]

Not happening. Pure gas Torid headshot: 200 aoe toxin

What's the listed damage for that Torid in the arsenal screen?

Edited September 8, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[holdenagincourt]

Just because Gas procs a toxin cloud does not mean it's not viable, since that Toxin cloud can help in stopping Infested from swarming you.

 

I agreed with some of the rest of your post, but I can't agree with this. AOE Toxin has no crowd control effect, so the only way it could prevent enemies from swarming you is by delivering a lot of burst damage. It simply doesn't do that to durable enemies (read: the ones that can tank the damage from your gun and still reach you for a stagger), which are the only ones you have to worry about swarming you in the first place.

 

Cold, Fire, Electric and Blast are all better at preventing Infested from closing on you than Gas. An argument could even be made for Corrosive here, as it drastically reduces your TTK and thus thins out crowds before they reach you.

[Twistedsparkle]

gas could be abit better yes
and the ancient resistance is kind of weird

I would also love to see a way to ignite the gas for aoe burn damage (ember just got a ladyboner because of this idea)

[Monolake]

What's the listed damage for that Torid in the arsenal screen?

I didnt use base dmg mods, UI says 500 for Torid but its with dot together 

 

Added more tests with Lanka, there numbers add up perfectly

[Azawarau]

That is true. My issue as stated is that the term "effective" is arguably incorrect because it is not specific and therefor is untrue when applied practically.

Yes. After all, the enemies are ignoring the damage.

Against one faction that i still get bonus damage and stunlock against on top of stunlocking and damaging nearby healers

[DPV111]

Against one faction that i still get bonus damage and stunlock against on top of stunlocking and damaging nearby healers

The Gas damage bonus against weaker enemies and it's peocs are being totally mitigated if there is a Toxxic Ancient in the room.

The Elec is nice but you will get the same result from Heat or Radiation, or even Cold and without toting around reduced Gas damage.

[Liminal]

I only find gas to be good on paper.
In practice, you don't need to deal more damage to basic infested, they already die quickly enough (unless you like lv600 enemies, but I'm talking about reasonable enemy levels here). You need to deal more damage to the real threat: Ancients, and they laugh at our gas procs ...

 

A damage type that's only useful until you start running into groups of Ancients isn't that great really when you can just take corrosive and fire and do well against every infested enemy.

 

The problem could be ancient auras, but even if basic infested always took 75% extra damage from gas, I'd still not use it because they die to anything. To me, it's like modding to kill Crewmen health instead of shields.

[(PSN)Mhj-sab]

IMO the thing that makes the Infestation a bit tricky on damage types is the Health classes being only ONE, so in case of Grineer for exemple, even an element that's mainly for the Flesh units still deals a decent damage to Tougher units (like how Heavy gunners, though armored, still got the FLESH health type which allows VIRAL do affect them too)

U don't have that in infested though, and specially with that aura, it's better to mod for FIRE than to mod for GAS due to the fact that Ancients aren't infested units AND they can nullify gas.

EDIT: then again, what matters is killing the ancients first so.. ´-´ Corrosive it is.

Edited September 8, 2014 by (PS4)Mhj-sab

[Damagedice]

Imagine dealing extra damage on an AoE against large crowds of enemies while stunlocking them

 

Are you going to ignore that?

Blast. elec. Idk how gas'd be stunlocking them. And the effect of stunlocking wouldn't say anything about Gas other than that it would allow Elec on the side, which is irrelevant.

[DPV111]

Blast. elec. Idk how gas'd be stunlocking them. And the effect of stunlocking wouldn't say anything about Gas other than that it would allow Elec on the side, which is irrelevant.

He likes Gas Elec because Elec chains and stuns the enemy and Gas does AoE procs. Unfortunately he fails to understand that Gas will be doing NO DAMAGE at least some of the time because of Ancient auras mitigating Toxic, Gas, and AoE damage.

[RealPandemonium]

Gas also staggers the enemy it procs on.

Edited September 8, 2014 by RealPandemonium