Gas Damage Sucks Against Everything

[Azawarau]

Blast. elec. Idk how gas'd be stunlocking them. And the effect of stunlocking wouldn't say anything about Gas other than that it would allow Elec on the side, which is irrelevant.

Of course its relevant

 

Corrosive and radiation and magnetic dont allow for electric

 

Blast and elec is kinda of backwards because its 2 CCs where you might as well only have one

 

Why would you even bother to post that? Elemental combinations are kind of important

 

He likes Gas Elec because Elec chains and stuns the enemy and Gas does AoE procs. Unfortunately he fails to understand that Gas will be doing NO DAMAGE at least some of the time because of Ancient auras mitigating Toxic, Gas, and AoE damage.

It deals extra damage that possibly gets transferred to healers

 

Also the enemies bunch up making them easier to abuse with gas and electric procs when ancients arent too heavily crowded on you

[DPV111]

Of course its relevant

 

Corrosive and radiation and magnetic dont allow for electric

 

Blast and elec is kinda of backwards because its 2 CCs where you might as well only have one

 

Why would you even bother to post that? Elemental combinations are kind of important

 

It deals extra damage that possibly gets transferred to healers

 

Also the enemies bunch up making them easier to abuse with gas and electric procs when ancients arent too heavily crowded on you

Alright.

1: Toxic Ancients reduce Gas and Toxin/Poison damage by 90%.

2: Ancient Disruptors reduce AoE damage by 90%.

3: Ancient Healers have personal Blast damage 90% reduction, and heal allies, and provide damage resistance to allies like Trinity's Blessing, and is healed by damage enemies take like a combo of Trinitiy's Link and Well of Life.

Just focusing onbelements that have some damage or CC benefit:

Gas/Elec = everything except the Elec resisted = poor damage, average CC.

Blast/Elec = Blast does more damage than Gas most of the time and its proc is not resisted like Gas = average damage, good CC.

Corrosive/Heat = exploits the most weaknesses and Fire proc does both damage and CC unlike gas = good damage, average CC.

Rad/Cold = straight damage but confusion and slow = average damage, good CC

Rad/Viral = straight damage but Viral procs and enemy max health is halved plus confusion tunrns enemy strengths against them = good damage, good CC.

You can really use whatever you like, but of all the viable loadouts, Gas/Elec is the weakest.

[Ithloniel]

I disagree on a few points and agree on a few others.  Gas should be the main damage type for harming ancients.  Also, Ancient auras shouldn't affect other ancients, except for the aura from Ancient Healers.  Light infested should then be weak against corrosive or something instead of Gas.

 

What would this change mean?

 

Players commonly build for the damage type most effective against heavy units.  In this case, that would be Gas.  However, light units pose a threat to the player and the cryo as well, simply due to their sheer numbers.  Also, Toxic and Disruptor auras give them a decent resistance on their own to their greatest threats (Gas AoE and Blast AoE from launchers).  In fact, even though the auras don't stack on other ancients, they would stack on the light infested, meaning that AoE launchers dealing blast + gas would not clear crowds as effectively as they used to.  Gas would still be ideal for killing Ancient Healers, but Disruptors and Toxics would both have some degree of damage reduction.  Gas also would have decent AoE properties to kill light infested, when ancients aren't around.

 

Building a weapon with Gas would therefore be an effective means to kill Ancient Disruptors or Healers, but not Toxics.  The AoE of the Gas would also be great against Healers, but ineffective against Disruptors.  Anyone using an AoE weapon such as Ogris or Penta would find that it scales a lot worse than other weapons in the late-game, meaning that while the tactic is still viable in early defense, it would become less-so as time goes on.  This poor scaling of AoE weapons would not necessarily transfer over to Gas damage on other weapons, since the initial Gas damage is not AoE, only the DoT cloud is.  Also, since Gas would not be effective against Toxic Ancients, it would provide players with a reason to run other elements too.  This means, while Gas would be the strongest choice against infested in the late-game, alternate damage types will remain ideal to handle Toxic Ancients and their nearby light infested, most likely fire.  Since fire and gas can't exist on the same weapon unless the weapon deals an innate damage type of one of those, players will have to choose between the two damage types or find other combinations.  I imagine common mixes would include:

 

Corrosive + Fire (A build that combines status triggers to lower armor, and high damage against light infested)

Gas + Electric (chain damage isn't AoE, meaning it would prove effective against mobs)

Gas + Blast (classic AoE launcher build)

Gas + Blast + Electric (hybrid between the above 2 builds)

Viral + Fire (A build that combines status triggers to cut down health, and high damage against light infested)

 

Another idea is making it so Radiation turns off auras on other infested around the ancients (it would still affect themselves).  Basically, a radiation-statused ancient would not give auras to light infested, and radiation-statused light infested would not receive auras.  This would be interesting, since both Gas and Radiation require fire.  This means, weapons with innate damage types of either Gas or Radiation would prove very useful against infested, since both combo elements could be used.  This would also open up other builds:

 

Radiation + Toxic (A status build that removes ancient auras from light infested and triggers Toxin DoT)

Radiation + Blast (An innate element status weapon build that would remove auras from light infested; anti-Toxic Ancient)

Radiation + Gas (An innate element status weapon build that would remove auras from light infested; anti-Disruptor Ancient)

 

 

Both magnetic and cold damage would not find much use against infested, but no surprise there.

 

I think Radiation + Blast would become a launcher mainstay for late-game defense, while Gas + Blast (+ Electric) would be early defense.  Another possibility is, any frame that deals radiation damage + status in an AoE (I'm looking at you Oberon, Nova, and Mirage) would totally want to pick up Gas + Blast (+ Electric).  For the sake of balance, Chaos shouldn't remove Ancient Aura-Share, because... what the hell Nyx, stop being awesome.

[Davoodoo]

You're just not taking the thought far enough.

 

You only have 500 conclave. You dump all of it into your attempt to solo everything with one gun... Then something goes wrong. You're too squishy, you wish you had some ability or utility, you don't feel you do enough damage vs something. Something isn't good enough and you can't just throw more mods at the problem because of the conclave limit.

 

You turn to your friend and you work out something between the two of you, instead of both just trying acting like solo players.

 

This is now co-op 101, and that's a big deal for Warframe.

I can understand everything.

But 500 conclave is 1 fully modded weapon + 1-2 powers on warframe with extra 5 mods to customize them.

Most efficient way to build with conclave limit?? dump everything into dmg and watch everything die before it can even react.

Everything so far in warframe should teach you that high offense>any defense, t4, suspicious shipments, low dmg before scaling kicks in, high dmg after scaling kicks in, theres simply no golden mean in warframe with defenses, enemy dmg, enemy resistance or anything really.

 

Co-op 101 doesnt apply to a game where you dont need to co-op.

 

As for damage, i dont pack anything else than corrosive and blast, its most universal combo with decent damage against everything and it also packs some cc.

Maybe im not doing max possible dmg but what i do is enough and it fails me only when everything starts to fail, so i have no real incentive to switch mods for other factions.

[Brimir]

... people, you realize that a 75% bonus from 0 damage is still 0 damage...right?

 

I can't believe people are actually defending this...!

[RealPandemonium]

... people, you realize that a 75% bonus from 0 damage is still 0 damage...right?

 

I can't believe people are actually defending this...!

That's on account of Ancient auras, not the element itself.  They probably should reduce the penalty vs Grineer, though.

[Brimir]

That's on account of Ancient auras, not the element itself.  They probably should reduce the penalty vs Grineer, though.

 

What causes it is irrelevant in this case - the point is that it happens. Auras or innate resistance doesn't matter.

[RealPandemonium]

What causes it is irrelevant in this case - the point is that it happens. Auras or innate resistance doesn't matter.

The thread is about Gas supposedly sucking, not Ancient auras.  The people speaking on Gas's behalf are pointing out that it is not as bad as it looks to be on paper while acknowledging that Ancient auras limit its usefulness against Infested (unless you kill the Ancients quickly.)

Edited September 9, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[Brimir]

The thread is about Gas supposedly sucking, not Ancient auras

 

No, this thread is about Gas being falsely advertised as the best anti-Infested damage type when it clearly isn't because of the Ancient auras.

 

It is not rocket science.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Brimir

[VKhaun]

I can understand everything.

No you don't...

 

Take the thought process farther..

 

You do exactly what you said... THEN THERE IS A PROBLEM... and you must adjust.

 

You're just assuming that your plan will work perfectly for every mission ever for the rest of the time you play warframe. That wasn't true for everyone in the events you listed, I rezzed lots of people playing all sorts of builds during suspicious shipments, and it won't necessarily be true for the future.

Edited September 9, 2014 by VKhaun

[Davoodoo]

No you don't...

 

Take the thought process farther..

 

You do exactly what you said... THEN THERE IS A PROBLEM... and you must adjust.

 

You're just assuming that your plan will work perfectly for every mission ever for the rest of the time you play warframe. That wasn't true for everyone in the events you listed, I rezzed lots of people playing all sorts of builds during suspicious shipments, and it won't necessarily be true for the future.

You know who i rezzed most during suspicious shipments, ppl who depended on their defenses, namely rhinos with iron skin on.

Its not about adapting your build its about overconfidence. 

Same rules as for every enemy still appplies, kill or cc before they can kill you, this time however you have less time to do so.

 

If game forces me to adapt i will but up to this point it havent done it even once so theres no reason to avoid using most universal combo.

It havent forced me even once to change my playstyle and not even once ive been forced to rethink my build, except for new additions.

[Azawarau]

Alright.

1: Toxic Ancients reduce Gas and Toxin/Poison damage by 90%.

2: Ancient Disruptors reduce AoE damage by 90%.

3: Ancient Healers have personal Blast damage 90% reduction, and heal allies, and provide damage resistance to allies like Trinity's Blessing, and is healed by damage enemies take like a combo of Trinitiy's Link and Well of Life.

Just focusing onbelements that have some damage or CC benefit:

Gas/Elec = everything except the Elec resisted = poor damage, average CC.

Blast/Elec = Blast does more damage than Gas most of the time and its proc is not resisted like Gas = average damage, good CC.

Corrosive/Heat = exploits the most weaknesses and Fire proc does both damage and CC unlike gas = good damage, average CC.

Rad/Cold = straight damage but confusion and slow = average damage, good CC

Rad/Viral = straight damage but Viral procs and enemy max health is halved plus confusion tunrns enemy strengths against them = good damage, good CC.

You can really use whatever you like, but of all the viable loadouts, Gas/Elec is the weakest.

Ill have to show you myself how wrong you are i suppose

 

... people, you realize that a 75% bonus from 0 damage is still 0 damage...right?

 

I can't believe people are actually defending this...!

Think about what you just said here

[Guest]

the gas should have some anti infested chemical properties...

toxin vs toxin

[Monsterwithin]

Well I can say is I agree 100% with op. Gas needs a buff simple, atleast do damage numbers of 5-10 instead of a complete 0 damage of proc.

[LukeAura]

Every Ancient's aura is designed to reduce the effectiveness of gas against the infection oddly enough.  
Gas damage is largely only valuable by its procc, as the only enemies that do take increased damage by it, are the weakest in the game and extra 50-75 percent damage buff is going to see a minimal change in ttk. 
This means gas is best used on single elemental weapons, high status chance weapons to abuse said proc as even physical weapons will cause a large reduction on the ability to consistently proc it. But the proc is toxic meaning its no so effective against ancients, suffering -50% of its damage. This means that it is actually very easy for gas proc to heal an infested healer more than the damage it takes with, requiring only halve as many other infested around it as it should. And reduces the damage even further against the other two types of ancients, double stacking reductions is very harsh to damage.  
And Fire proc providing CC and a Damaging DoT just seems better when ancients are around, as AoE Toxic damage is actually one of the worst ideas you could use against them. 
It's at its best, when it's not needed. And it is a liability when the infested are most dangerous. 

[BrazilianJoe]

It's at its best, when it's not needed. And it is a liability when the infested are most dangerous. 

 

Sums up the issue.

 

There is a clear point on this thread. Gas looks like a good damage type on paper, but it is not actually the best damage type against the faction it's supposed to excel against, or the best against almost anything. It is only good against a few weak units which can be quickly dispatched by any other damage type. So the player is better off banking on another damage type.

 

What if Gas's proc debuffed auras? Even if the first proc does not do damage, it could make the target immune to being buffed by auras; which would in turn make it vulnerable to damage from future procs of the same gas cloud, and anything else.

 

Or, if the above debuff is too powerful, each gas proc could cut the auras' effect by 24% per proc, stackable up to 4 times. So it would reduce the aura's effect from 90% <whatever> reduction to a palsy 3.6%.

[(PSN)Mhj-sab]

Sums up the issue.

 

There is a clear point on this thread. Gas looks like a good damage type on paper, but it is not actually the best damage type against the faction it's supposed to excel against, or the best against almost anything. It is only good against a few weak units which can be quickly dispatched by any other damage type. So the player is better off banking on another damage type.

 

What if Gas's proc debuffed auras? Even if the first proc does not do damage, it could make the target immune to being buffed by auras; which would in turn make it vulnerable to damage from future procs of the same gas cloud, and anything else.

 

Or, if the above debuff is too powerful, each gas proc could cut the auras' effect by 24% per proc, stackable up to 4 times. So it would reduce the aura's effect from 90% <whatever> reduction to a palsy 3.6%.

^ This.

I've mentioned before, What if Gas proc changed a bit, to something other than just ordinaire AoE Toxin. Inhaling gas and all, perhaps gas procs could put enemies in a rather disoriented state, in which their auras can't be cast due to that effect. THAT would be great IMO. Would make Gas useful at least, specially against Eximus (but let's face it, other factions eximus are nothing compared to Infested ancients/ancient eximus)

Besides, what if a warframe with Gas skills is released in the future (we never know) wouldn't it be just disappointing the way gas is NOW? All other elements have their peaks of usefullness

Edit: could work much like a "Silence" debuff, except it greatly reduces enemies' focus and interrupts buffs cast (auras and such) and makes them less likely to cast skills. Reduced AoE Toxin damage to make up for that.

Note: By reducing their focus I mean, Interrupt the current buffs they're maintaining and makin them unable/less likely to recast/cast another ability for a short period.

Edited September 9, 2014 by (PS4)Mhj-sab

[RealPandemonium]

Rofl, this is simple.  Ancient auras are too punitive; they almost totally shut down many options when many of them are present (and this will happen constantly during endless missions.)  

 

Gas damage is too heavily penalized against Grineer but is otherwise OK vs everything if you have a high status chance.  The loadout screen doesn't lie; it's perhaps being too literal, but when have codex entries and in-game flavor text ever been reliable?  

 

Ancients need to be fixed, not Gas damage.  The title of the thread is misleading.  

Edited September 9, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[LukeAura]

Rofl, this is simple.  Ancient auras are too punitive.  Gas damage is too heavily penalized against Grineer but is otherwise OK vs everything if you have a high status chance.  The loadout screen doesn't lie; it's perhaps being too literal, but when have codex entries and in-game flavor text ever been reliable?  Ancients need to fixed, not Gas damage.  The title of the thread is misleading.  

Even without auras it still probably won't be that great. The damage is on paper high for all factions, but unfocused and contradictory. 

Against infested, it's direct bonus is against units that don't need extra damage, and its proc is near to useless. Every ancients will tank a toxin DoT like it's nothing, even without their auras. And it's much better to have AoE CC like blast or Elec than AoE damage for light units. CC gives you more effective time to kill them yourself than using the AoE proc to kill them.

Against everything else the proc is fantastic, but the direct damage sucks and they're generally more spread out so it's less likely to work as an AoE function, you might as well run toxic at that point and give yourself the room for a more valuable combined element.

It only works in these cases for elemental weapons with high status chance that can reliably pull out the proc with a dedicated loadout but it requires a much higher level of player and even team support to work correctly. It can get good results if set up right though, but so can every procc while still being functionally more useful at low levels of skill.

Every other element has its place and value readily available and roughly equal to each other, except Gas is far weaker without help, and requires much more support to be roughly comparable.

The tool tip pointed out in the OP is a brand new one meant to be accurate to help new players figure out basic strategies. But any ancient will completely invalidate it, and they don't get their own unique tooltip and just fall under 'infested'. 

I'd say maybe make gas a force multiplier for the second/third elemental procc giving each toxic'd unit a chance to be procc'd with the other effects too. It would still be worse without team support, but on a dedicated build it would make it a better procc than the others, an advanced-player element of sorts. 

[H.Katsura_999]

I use gas on my orthos prime since it makes it a very good crowd control melee weapon. I had no problems with it even if i'm against infested healers.

 

But if this is a petition to buff the gas proc then i'm in.

Edited September 9, 2014 by H.Katsura_999

[(PSN)Mhj-sab]

I use gas on my orthos prime since it makes it a very good crowd control melee weapon. I had no problems with it even if i'm against infested healers.

 

But if this is a petition to buff the gas proc then i'm in.

The issue that contradicts Gas effectiveness is the whole TOXIC Ancient thing, they can simply put your gas procs down to 0 and greatly reduce gas Damage.

About petition, I would suggest that somebody creates a new Thread on Feedback section for proper understanding of what the thread is all about, this Thread's title is quite misleading as appointed before.

[Azawarau]

Even without auras it still probably won't be that great. The damage is on paper high for all factions, but unfocused and contradictory. 

Against infested, it's direct bonus is against units that don't need extra damage, and its proc is near to useless. Every ancients will tank a toxin DoT like it's nothing, even without their auras. And it's much better to have AoE CC like blast or Elec than AoE damage for light units. CC gives you more effective time to kill them yourself than using the AoE proc to kill them.

Against everything else the proc is fantastic, but the direct damage sucks and they're generally more spread out so it's less likely to work as an AoE function, you might as well run toxic at that point and give yourself the room for a more valuable combined element.

It only works in these cases for elemental weapons with high status chance that can reliably pull out the proc with a dedicated loadout but it requires a much higher level of player and even team support to work correctly. It can get good results if set up right though, but so can every procc while still being functionally more useful at low levels of skill.

Every other element has its place and value readily available and roughly equal to each other, except Gas is far weaker without help, and requires much more support to be roughly comparable.

The tool tip pointed out in the OP is a brand new one meant to be accurate to help new players figure out basic strategies. But any ancient will completely invalidate it, and they don't get their own unique tooltip and just fall under 'infested'. 

I'd say maybe make gas a force multiplier for the second/third elemental procc giving each toxic'd unit a chance to be procc'd with the other effects too. It would still be worse without team support, but on a dedicated build it would make it a better procc than the others, an advanced-player element of sorts. 

Gas can be paired with electric you know

 

The issue that contradicts Gas effectiveness is the whole TOXIC Ancient thing, they can simply put your gas procs down to 0 and greatly reduce gas Damage.

About petition, I would suggest that somebody creates a new Thread on Feedback section for proper understanding of what the thread is all about, this Thread's title is quite misleading as appointed before.

I really need to get on making a video for this

 

Pure gas elec built weapons solo run planned soon

[(PSN)Mhj-sab]

Update 14.6 (PC)
"Reduced the maximum amount of Ancients that can be simultaneously active during Infested Defense and Survival missions."

 

[PaxEthenica]

Gas sucks against the Grineer, it sucks against the Corpus, and with one Ancient walking a amdist a sea of regulars, Gas damage can instantly see you losing your mission. These are facts. Gas sucks as a damage type, and the Toxicant needs its aura to do something else. Like, say, taint the surrounding Infested's attacks with toxic damage. It'd make Infested just as dangerous, and discourage the universality of all-shield builds, thus improve load out diversity. Which is a good thing, get you lovely monkies thinking about how to play the game again.

Edited September 11, 2014 by PaxEthenica

[LukeAura]

Gas can be paired with electric you know

Electric can be paired with Viral and Blast too, which are generally more effective at straight damage for non proc weapons, and are equally great procs for proc weapons, if not better ones when not run with specialized support. 

Gas/Elec is but one combo, and although good only works roughly as effectively as many other combos when applied to elemental weapons with high/decent status chance and crowd grouping abilities. It requires more effort to be roughly equal, and without that specialization is less valuable.

This is not a complaint of viability, but of unreasonable balance and counterintuitive design.