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Survival, The One And Only Mission Type Dictated By Rng.


Kamikiri
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TL;DR: In my opinion, life support or survival as a whole needs a facelift to make it less reliant on RNG without removing the need to kill enemies.

 

So anyone that has ever tried to go for a really lengthy survival run will tell you that Nekros is integral... or rather Desecrate spamming is integral to last in survival, and that the spawn rate of enemies have to align just right and that everyone is ready to deal slash damage to create as many desecrate targets as possible and then you're pretty much set to last forever on paper, but you may still only last up to 30-40 minutes if luck is not on your side.

 

Then if you do not have a Nekros or if the spawns are sub-par then you may have to extract before the 15 minute mark without any choice in the matter.

If you have neither then lasting up to 10 minutes may at times be impossible.

(These times are basically worst case scenarios, where the player has no way to change the outcome)

 

I feel that while it is the most rewarding game type in the game at the moment, relying on RNG is not exactly desireable.

I know survival is here to stay, I don't want it to go away, but I feel the balance of how life support is distributed needs to be looked at or done away with entirely.

Something as simple as lowering the droprate for the lesser life supports, but making the life support capsules replenish much more could be an option worth testing out.

I understand that the lesser life support is necessary to have in there to not allow for teams of nothing but Loki users steamroll through it by simply waiting it out  while grabbing the capsules, but are there no alternetives as to why the enemies need to be killed that makes the mode more reliable?

 

Here are a few thoughts of mine of what those alternatives could potentially be:

- Life support carriers could be implemented to add a unit type that gives life support 100% of the time.

- Enemy kills could add to the life support at a rate of something like 5 kills = 1% or whatever that would reflect the droprate of the life support and have it replace the personal life support entirely (it'd be slightly more reliable than the 4% personal life supports even if the spawnrates themselves are bad)

- Remove the life support entirely and make the rewards based on kill count. (Or that could even be yet another endless mode of it's own) As in, every 300-500 enemies you're rewarded the same way as if you just did 5 minutes of survival while the enemy still scales by a timer so that it becomes necessary to kill the enemies quick to gain more rewards.

 

I know that it's impossible for this to be the first thread bringing this up and some of these thoughts may have been mentioned by others prior, but I wanted to share my thoughts nonetheless.

Survival is rewarding, but unreliable to a fault.

Edited by Kamikiri
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I miss the setup that Survival originally had when it was first tested, namely the life support capsules dropped like crazy to the point they littered the map, but 10 minutes in or so the Lotus would stop sending you giant capsules, so a smart team would stockpile the small ones for when there are no more large capsules. Enemies would still continue to drop capsules frequently as well, but because their levels went up really fast, they would become harder to kill and therefore harder to get life support from. Good times, good times.

 

I would much prefer if it was more like that again, where the drops are in surplus but enemies level up much faster and the Lotus's capsules become scarce, making it feel like your legitimately fighting immeasurable odds against super strong enemies to get the air you need to live, rather than just fighting the clock and praying another capsule arrives to reach the 10 minute mark.

 

Alternatively, I once heard a good suggestion that rather than killing enemies for oxygen, your fighting them purely to distract them so that they don't catch on to that Tenno operative raiding the ship. The harder you fight, the more troops they send to fight you and the less there are to notice their supply caches being looted. Would remove the RNG of it all quite nicely since it's actually about killing the enemies rather than killing the enemies and hoping they drop an air tank (on the other hand it wouldn't really be survival as it would be distraction, but I'm okay with a name change).

Edited by Paradoxbomb
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I miss the setup that Survival originally had when it was first tested, namely the life support capsules dropped like crazy to the point they littered the map, but 10 minutes in or so the Lotus would stop sending you giant capsules, so a smart team would stockpile the small ones for when there are no more large capsules. Enemies would still continue to drop capsules frequently as well, but because their levels went up really fast, they would become harder to kill and therefore harder to get life support from. Good times, good times.

 

I would much prefer if it was more like that again, where the drops are in surplus but enemies level up much faster and the Lotus's capsules become scarce, making it feel like your legitimately fighting immeasurable odds against super strong enemies to get the air you need to live, rather than just fighting the clock and praying another capsule arrives to reach the 10 minute mark.

 

Alternatively, I once heard a good suggestion that rather than killing enemies for oxygen, your fighting them purely to distract them so that they don't catch on to that Tenno operative raiding the ship. The harder you fight, the more troops they send to fight you and the less there are to notice their supply caches being looted. Would remove the RNG of it all quite nicely since it's actually about killing the enemies rather than killing the enemies and hoping they drop an air tank (on the other hand it wouldn't really be survival as it would be distraction, but I'm okay with a name change).

 

Interesting, I wonder why they'd do away with the old survival mode if that's how it used work.. it sounds like a legitimately better system than what we have now.

 

And "distraction" sounds great, and that is basically what we're already doing in survival missions as is, "distract the enemy while a lone Tenno operative raids this ship" - Lotus

It's a shame that the tenno are such a threat that choking us out is too good of a strategy for the enemy to discard in favour of zerg rushing.

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Well, it was only like that in the Weekend Survival Event. And one of the main differences between them and that what was implemented after that is: the event was on defence maps. and those are much more designed to spawn lots of mobs (like 8-10 spawnpoints per map). and of course the drop rate of life support (it felt like 30-50%).

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Survivals must just be significantly easier solo...I can easily hit the 40 minute mark with bad spawns when I play alone in the Void, but everyone who runs with groups is saying it's hard. With Infested, though, I run out quickly anywhere but ODS.

 

The current problem with Survival that most people face isn't that Life Support isn't dropping from enemies. The problem is that not enough enemies show up to make up for its low drop chance. Adding in new units that carry LS, making killing itself be the way to bring it back up, or using kills as the timers would not solve the problem. If anything, those solutions might just make the current problem even worse.

 

I like Paradoxbomb's suggestion, though. If all enemies had a high chance to drop Life Support. but the main Capsules stopped spawning, then it would make it solely about killing until you can't kill anymore. With the high drop chance, you wouldn't be scrounging for that last group of enemies to hopefully get more, and you wouldn't be relying solely on the large Capsules. Plus, as someone who also played the Survival during its initial test, I can say I have rather fond memories. Levels would rise like mad, killing would slow down, and you'd have to survive off of dropped LS packs. Even just killing the high leveled enemies, while being significantly slowed because of their levels, gave enough packets to keep yourselves alive. Their damage output made that difficult, though. Another thing that was nice about it, too, was that it took place on a Defense map. It was a smallish area with many spawns and a high enemy limit, so it got flooded very quickly.

 

The major problems that cause the current lack of enemies is that enemies often spawn far away (usually one tile, 2 at worst) and that they have an issue where they stay in their spawn room until the players get near. The first is exacerbated by groups because players have a habit of separating. One player usually drags behind or goes to another room or even just stays on the opposite side of the room as everyone else, so enemies spawn even farther away. With how it currently is, staying in one room with your whole team is your best bet. Sometimes, though, it is better to separate because of issues with spawning. However, for the majority of the time, sticking to one large room with many entrances can help increase spawns, or staying somewhere with 2 entrances (hopefully from larger rooms) can help to funnel what does spawn and make sure you kill things.

 

It's still my favorite gamemode, but it could definitely use some adjusting.

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Yes the Spawnsystem for enemies is a huge factor for this problem. They spawn in the Tiles adjacent to the one(s) Playrs are sresiding in. When people spread out it spraed out spawns as well. Thats also why solo i somewhat easy up to the point where enemy scaling hits hard. With only one Player present the enemies will always spawn centered around that player. I even think today that survival on defense maps because its one single mapt tile with small "sub rooms" for enemy spawn.

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If the spawn rates of enemies go any lower than it is now, I would have to shoot my own kubrow just so I have something to shoot at. Most of the time I only see like 4 or 5 enemies running at me, and ofc they won't drop enough small boxes to keep me alive until 20 mins. Survival's issues were addressed like 1 year ago and still, DE won't do anything about it. I wonder when will Excavation replace Survival.

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Could someone one correct my lack of understanding here please.

 

* I get a 4 player team with Perma Invisible Loki's. Everyone has Energy Syphon, backup Energy Restores.

* We don't kill a thing, forcing spawns to stay at current level, as newer, higher level mobs can't replace the deaths.

* We all hole up, stay in one tile and just activate the Oxygen when say, below 40%.

* We just shift tile to tile and follow Oxygen towers.

 

Why and how will this fail?

 

I have been on plenty of runs where the entire team stayed togheter and we had 4 extra Oxygen towers on map edges, and only left because of tough to kill mobs.

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Could someone one correct my lack of understanding here please.

 

* I get a 4 player team with Perma Invisible Loki's. Everyone has Energy Syphon, backup Energy Restores.

* We don't kill a thing, forcing spawns to stay at current level, as newer, higher level mobs can't replace the deaths.

* We all hole up, stay in one tile and just activate the Oxygen when say, below 40%.

* We just shift tile to tile and follow Oxygen towers.

 

Why and how will this fail?

 

I have been on plenty of runs where the entire team stayed togheter and we had 4 extra Oxygen towers on map edges, and only left because of tough to kill mobs.

 

The reason I brought up a team of Lokis was in the off case that we only needed to rely on the capsules Lotus sent us, making any kind of confrontation obsolete as everyone just has to split up and grab the life support tanks when needed.

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