Why Things Are So Easy

[RustyNaps]

NOTICE: This post is not about "end game" or "high level play", it's just about a simple fix DE could do to greatly improve difficulty without spinning players on their heads with more "Arua" based enemies or "Super Ultra Major Overhaul" Updates. I've put this notice up here now because before I had faith in 99.9% of the community that I wouldn't have to explain a post that's pretty self explanatory. Unfortunately I was wrong. I give cookies to everyone that understood the post before I wrote the notice.

 

NOW!!!

 

Hear me out on this one but I think I may have found a reasonable reason why the game has little to no challenge unless you intentionally gimp yourself.

 

No it's not AI dumbness, it's not lack of enemy abilities like dodging, it's not the forma (it is part of it but that's a balancing issue), and it's not even our clunky mod system. No, none of these are the major problem (they are apart of it though).

 

Just hear me out here. Put those pitch forks down and white knights please lower your shields. I've thought about this for weeks now ESPECIALLY on the toilet and have came to a conclusion. The reason why everything's so easy. It's because the AoE's have no collision detection. Thats right. It's that simple. The reason everything is steam rolled or passed by is mainly because anything AoE is a lazily coded "ray splash" that goes through anything and everything. 

 

So why doesn't DE give a few AoE ults, abilities and all AoE weapons collision detection? I mean 70% of the time the enemy is behind cover looking at play boys thinking he's safe when all the sudden an Ogris hits the other side of the wall and boom, that poor grineer or crewman is dead along with 20 others.

 

Adding AoE collision physics to SOME WARFRAME AOE ABILITIES (I want to put A LOT of emphasis on "some". It would not make sense for Rhino's Stomp to be stopped by a crate or Banshee's Sound Quake to be stopped by a wall. Maybe dampened but not a complete "halt") and all AoE weapons (cept Torid I guess) would add so much challenge to this game. You'd have to know when to ult and where to ult to save if for the best moment to get the most kills. And it'd only take DE a day or 2.

 

Well that was my little shpeel. I don't expect any cupcakes for the community on this one so flame if you must.

 

ROUGH VISUAL AID: Some people still don't get it so here's a quick aid of how it basically works for SOME Warframe AoE abilities and MOST AoE weapons alike. Note this isn't changing damage values or nothing. Just the physics.

ROUGH UPCOMING VISUAL AID: Some AoE abilities act differently. The visual aid above is for explosion AoE's like Nova's chain reaction for Mprime (Not the Prime itself, that still goes through walls), Nyx' Absorb, Vaubans Vortex Pull, Hydroids Tempest Barrage and so on. For example, Rhino's Stomp and Banshee's Sound quake are seismic abilities that rock the very ground beneath them; similar to earthquakes. The idea for abilities like these is to still go through cover but now the range of the ability will be significantly reduced because it had to travel UP the cover. A Picture will be here to help soon.

 

 

NOTICE 2.0: For those who are clinically lazy to walk behind a truss to shoot 20 other dudes behind the truss. Look at the big picture. Grineer Napalms will no longer be able to proc you through walls if AoE collision detection is added in.

Edited September 8, 2014 by RustyNaps

[Lukap99]

The current AoE "physics", if you can call them as such, are remnants of Warframe's past. Way back when DE was a lot less ambitious.
So yeah, updating this is necessary.

[Monsterwithin]

Still. bring a valkyr and the game turns right back to easy.

[RustyNaps]

Still. bring a valkyr and the game turns right back to easy.

I know but Valkyr can only attack so many at a time while most frames can just nuke whole maps through any form of cover.

 

This really needs to be changed for the better so we have to think more about the way we use our ults. The only ult I have to think with is Excalibur. For excal, I have to stand on a high place above any other buildings; blind then ult to be the most effective. I wan't more frames to have this level of planning and thinking.

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

THIS POST

 

actually brings a valid argument

[Lukap99]

Still. bring a valkyr and the game turns right back to easy.

 

Valk really is ridiculous.

But still, things need fixin' & tweakin'.

[Noxraconis]

Mag is first don't worried other frame will follow her.

[RustyNaps]

THIS POST

 

actually brings a valid argument

I try my best.

[Semshol]

-OP-

 

Please fight level 70+ enemies.

 

AoE is not going to hurt them.

 

It is only easy if you're deliberately playing easy missions.

 

At level 70+ I'm glad the rhino stomp can stomp some of the insane monstrosities you start to deal with on high-level grineer, all of whom are one shotting.

 

Besides, anyone using their ult for killing...is probably still learning the game...

Edited September 8, 2014 by Semshol

[dragonboss]

Explosions going through walls are why you think Warframe is easy?

 

Try the serious lack of depth in combat beyond how high you can make the numbers go when you damage an enemy. Every faction is essentially in permanent zombie horde mode, just that some shoot at you. Those that cant shoot at you spam things you cant actively defend against using your own personal skill.

 

I'm pretty sure most of my brain turns off when I'm playing warframe, there is little to no descision making other than:

1. A few enemies in front of me: do I shoot, melee or use and ability (all of which are 1 button press)

2. Overwhelmed by enemes; do I run or spam an AoE

 

The AI doesn't help either, they only run at you to be shot in the face and spawn behind you from closed rooms to simulate rudimentary tactics. There are no flanking manoeuvres, or flush out with grenades either(grenades are just thrown occasionally and are semi-hit-scan).

 

AI hardly even matters at this point because power crept boltor prime, molecular prime and valkyr exist.

 

The worst things I can think of in this game are the things that were clearly put in to be a "challenge", instead they're annoying so say the least and artificial difficulty at best. Bleed damage through shields, the new ancients, freaking arc traps and infested ospreys are just atrocious.

 

The hardest action games I've played, Ninja Gaiden Black and NG2, even the Dark Souls series has challenge in spades without having to spam random things like the Ancient hooks and a small flying enemy that sprays poison everywhere and spawns faster than flies with the powers of the flash.

 

I will be very happy when the combat itself changes to require quick thinking and the mental option select you have when playing games like Tekken (on the competitive level) against each thing your enemy throws at you. Maybe when the entire dodging system and movement  is reworked and you can go on super clutch no hits runs, till then my brain is mostly off, or watching something while playing, cause I know it doesn't need my full attention.

Edited September 8, 2014 by dragonboss

[RustyNaps]

Please fight level 70+ enemies.

 

AoE is not going to hurt them.

 

It is only easy if you're deliberately playing easy missions.

 

At level 70+ I'm glad the rhino stomp can stomp some of the insane monstrosities you start to deal with on high-level grineer, all of whom are one shotting.

 

Besides, anyone using their ult for killing...is probably still learning the game...

Ah theres the first guy who either didn't read or understand the post. Glad you came to the party!

 

Oh and buddy FYI I kill T4 Vor with Aklato's for fun. Level 70 is nothing. And please read the post again. I know it's sloppy but I just wanted to jot stuff down. It'll make sense maybe the second time around.

Edited September 8, 2014 by RustyNaps

[RustyNaps]

Explosions going through walls are why you think Warframe is easy?

 

Try the serious lack of depth in combat beyond how high you can make the numbers go when you damage an enemy. Every faction is essentially in permanent zombie horde mode, just that some shoot at you. Those that cant shoot at you spam things you cant actively defend against using your own personal skill.

 

I'm pretty sure most of my brain turns off when I'm playing warframe, there is little to no descision making other than:

1. A few enemies in front of me: do I shoot, melee or use and ability (all of which are 1 button press)

2. Overwhelmed by enemes; do I run or spam an AoE

 

The AI doesn;t help either, they only run at you to be shot in the face and spawn behind you from closed rooms to simulate rudimentary tactics. There are no flanking manoeuvres, or flush out with grenades either(grenades are just thrown occasionally and are semi-hit-scan).

 

AI hardly even matters at this point because power crept boltor prime, molecular prime and valkyr exist.

 

The worst things I can think of in this game are the things that were clearly put in to be a "challenge", instead they're annoying so say the least and artificial difficulty at best. Bleed damage through shields, the new ancients, freaking arc traps and infested ospreys are just atrocious.

 

The hardest action games I've played, Ninja Gaiden Black and NG2, even the Dark Souls series has challenge in spades without having to spam random things like the Ancient hooks and a small flying enemy that sprays poison everywhere and spawns faster than flies with the powers of the flash.

 

I will be very happy when the combat itself changes to require quick thinking and the mental option select you have when playing games like Tekken (on the competitive level) against each thing your enemy throws at you. Maybe when the entire dodging system and movement  is reworked and you can go on super clutch no hits runs, till then my brain ins mostly off, or watching something while playing, cause I know it doesn't need my full attention.

And theres the other guy who also didn't read or understand but gave very good points to other reasons why the game has a lack of difficulty! I was waiting for you too!

 

In all seriousness though this is just a post to give DE small ideas that would take very little time but make huge steps forward. But yes the AoE's going through everything thing is one of the things that makes this game extremely easy. But at the same time it is also a simple fix that would impact difficulty heavily. And for the better. Recoding AI would take too long and thats not DE's priorities atm.

[Semshol]

Ah theres the first guy who either didn't read or understand the post. Glad you came to the party!

 

I read your first post, but its way too general to be counted as a good balancing method.

 

I want to see something detailed that offers the same for low-level play as for high-level play.

 

If it cannot be viable versus level 70+ enemies, then it is not a fix that is needed.

 

Let's take examples of some abilities:

 

Miasma is a gas, it can most likely fill an area. The only part where I would agree is it not going through a wall, Yet there are few such situations unless you actually mod for range, which leaves less room for other more potent combos.

 

Avalanche is an Avalanche of ice, again, it can probably go past cover. Walls? Maybe not, but same range problem applies.

 

Stomp should go through everything because Rhino is stopping time, you already highlighted this same with Sound-Quake.

 

Tentacles can reach behind cover to grasp enemies and they can spawn on walls and ceilings, but this one already has some collision detection due to the spawning of the tentacles.

 

Vortex is a black hole, I am sure its suction would not be stopped by walls or the floor and in fact it isn't, you can use it like a magnet in void and its really funny to see enemies humping the floor.

 

So how does your entire idea fit into this? You need a more detailed post with all the mechanics worked out for it be proper, this is not an answer.

[RustyNaps]

I read your first post, but its way too general to be counted as a good balancing method.

 

I want to see something detailed that offers the same for low-level play as for high-level play.

 

If it cannot be viable versus level 70+ enemies, then it is not a fix that is needed.

 

Let's take examples of some abilities:

 

Miasma is a gas, it can most likely fill an area. The only part where I would agree is it not going through a wall, Yet there are few such situations unless you actually mod for range, which leaves less room for other more potent combos.

 

Avalanche is an Avalanche of ice, again, it can probably go past cover. Walls? Maybe not, but same range problem applies.

 

Stomp should go through everything because Rhino is stopping time, you already highlighted this same with Sound-Quake.

 

Tentacles can reach behind cover to grasp enemies and they can spawn on walls and ceilings, but this one already has some collision detection due to the spawning of the tentacles.

 

Vortex is a black hole, I am sure its suction would not be stopped by walls or the floor and in fact it isn't, you can use it like a magnet in void and its really funny to see enemies humping the floor.

 

So how does your entire idea fit into this? You need a more detailed post with all the mechanics worked out for it be proper, this is not an answer.

You're still not getting it. My post is not about "end game" or "high level play" it's about a simple fix DE could make to make the game more difficult without doing something that heavily changes or impacts it.

 

No powers will be altered or weapon damage everything is still the same. Now just SOME AoE abilities and MOST AoE weapons obey the laws of physics. Seriously go give it another read. Sorry it's so sloppy.

[Semshol]

You're still not getting it. My post is not about "end game" or "high level play" it's about a simple fix DE could make to make the game more difficult without doing something that heavily changes or impacts it.

 

No powers will be altered or weapon damage everything is still the same. Now just SOME AoE abilities and MOST AoE weapons obey the laws of physics. Seriously go give it another read. Sorry it's so sloppy.

 

I understand that, but the changes that affect any game-play, affects ALL levels, especially high-end which is where most of us find ourselves having mastered various weapons etc.

 

I understand that weapon damage will not change, but changing the AoE physics will hardly change gameplay except to make it more annoying, not more challenging, just more annoying. Why? We'd just switch to pure punch-through weapons and take out enemies through doors and cover. It's not a challenge fix, it's just an unnecessary tweak which is why I am saying, it's not needed.

[thegamer118]

i wonder if new players would want the game to be more difficult, or to see the game become more difficult just because some dudes wants the game to obey laws of physics, especially players that arrived like 3 weeks ago and see the game be more difficult like for no real reason at all except that "it needs to follow the laws of physics so that it gets more challenging"

Edited September 8, 2014 by thegamer118

[RustyNaps]

I understand that weapon damage will not change, but changing the AoE physics will hardly change gameplay except to make it more annoying, not more challenging, just more annoying. Why? We'd just switch to pure punch-through weapons and take out enemies through doors and cover. It's not a challenge fix, it's just an unnecessary tweak which is why I am saying, it's not needed.

Use that goddam brain God/Evolution (who ever you believe in) worked so hard creating/evolving and THINK ABOUT HOW TO TAKE THINGS ON. Cover should act like cover both for you and the enemy. AoE's should obey this as well as bullets do. I don't see a reason why AoE's should be so special. They already take out 50+ enemies in a shot, they need some tactical disadvantages like everything else does.

 

We can argue about your lazyness all day but this is just an idea for DE to prefect a mechanic that's already in place for the AI.

[dragonboss]

And theres the other guy who also didn't read or understand but gave very good points to other reasons why the game has a lack of difficulty! I was waiting for you too!

 

In all seriousness though this is just a post to give DE small ideas that would take very little time but make huge steps forward. But yes the AoE's going through everything thing is one of the things that makes this game extremely easy. But at the same time it is also a simple fix that would impact difficulty heavily. And for the better. Recoding AI would take too long and thats not DE's priorities atm.

I have read what you wrote and I understand, I am merely stating that in my experience with Warframe, AoE's going through walls are a minor contributor to lack of difficulty. As someone has already stated, and I reiterate, punch-through mods exist and will be used to counter this.

I also said AI is not the issue at this point either and whether or not A.I. would take long or not is besides the point.

[RustyNaps]

i wonder if new players would want the game to be more difficult, or to see the game become more difficult just because some dudes wants the game to obey laws of physics

Sigh, I don't think you are thinking of the big picture.

 

Napalms will no longer proc you through walls.

[RustyNaps]

I have read what you wrote and I understand, I am merely stating that in my experience with Warframe, AoE's going through walls are a minor contributor to lack of difficulty. As someone has already stated, and I reiterate, punch-through mods exist and will be used to counter this.

I also said AI is not the issue at this point either and whether or not A.I. would take long or not is besides the point.

Punch through mods only go through 3.1 meters and you have to sacrifice a lot of time to get them and level them and most Crates that enemies use for cover are very thick. I think this would be a well welcomed change. Enemies can survive Ogris shots and you the Tenno will no longer be procc'd through walls by Napalms. Which I'm sure you all love.

[tocorro]

You're still not getting it. My post is not about "end game" or "high level play" it's about a simple fix DE could make to make the game more difficult without doing something that heavily changes or impacts it.

 

No powers will be altered or weapon damage everything is still the same. Now just SOME AoE abilities and MOST AoE weapons obey the laws of physics. Seriously go give it another read. Sorry it's so sloppy.

 

Why do I have a feeling you are talking (aside Ogris, Penta) mainly about molecular prime ?

[thegamer118]

Punch through mods only go through 3.1 meters and you have to sacrifice a lot of time to get them and level them and most Crates that enemies use for cover are very thick. I think this would be a well welcomed change. Enemies can survive Ogris shots and you the Tenno will no longer be procc'd through walls by Napalms. Which I'm sure you all love.

i ve never been procc'd by napalms through walls, i m always moving

[RustyNaps]

i ve never been procc'd by napalms through walls, i m always moving

Go play an Invasion on I think cere's. The amount of Napalms that spawn makes me cry.

[ss4chris]

Game is pretty hard past 100 waves. :O

[thegamer118]

Go play an Invasion on I think cere's. The amount of Napalms that spawn makes me cry.

i never had problems on invasions on ceres