Incomming Lore Hole

[Llyssa]

So, we have survival. Survival works on the theory that your warframe requires some protection from exposure to space, and is heavily compromised by such.

 

The new archwing has us flying through space. They explain that the archwings grant protection from exposure to space, negating the standard compromise issue.

 

If the Lotus, as she states in her opening blurb, was expecting them to cut off life support, and can, as she states repeatedly through the mission, deliver capsules to assist us... why wouldn't we either a: come with our archwings already equipped, since we're expecting the need for protection, or b: have our archwings delivered once there's actually a need for protection?

 

It doesn't really make a lot of sense why we wouldn't just circumnavigate the whole LS requirement issue by having our handy-dandy archwings with us.

 

In fact, the whole idea of survival mode becomes slightly absurd in that light--it would be much easier to force the enemies to battle stations against tenno strafing the outside of the ship than to keep them busy deploying troops inside of the ship, if all we're doing is providing a protracted distraction to cover Raider Bob.

[BrotherIcarus]

Game play trumps lore. 

 

Also attacking the ships from space would only distract the dedicated crew, the battalions of soldiers on bored would probably be on high alert patrolling the ship thus seeking out the hidden operative. 

[Semshol]

How it works is as follows:

 

We survive till X time, because we cannot arch-wing INSIDE the ship while the other agent is raiding. He might die since no one ever said he is in a warframe.

 

Once everything is clear. WE BURST OUT INTO ARCH-WINGS

 

Huge space battle ensues.

 

No lore holes mate.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Semshol

[noveltyhero]

We don't really know how the game mode will be implemented. All we know is what it is and what it does, maybe when it is implemented it will answer your issue?

 

As for Lotus, it is more likely that she has a limited transmission. The pods are seemingly teleported in, that possibly means that she has stations nearby to do that. The delay can be based on various things:

-Trying to remain hidden whilst not being inactive

-Trying to fend off enemies at the same time

-Requiring lots of energy to teleport the pods in, there may be a delay?

 

Speculations speculations, that is all they are so far :/

[Hueminator]

I think archwings happen when the ship got destroyed.

[Imaru]

Steve (was it Steve?) said in livestream 36 that the archwings would keep us alive. Plot hole patched. 

 

EDIT: Misunderstood OP. A tenno flying around the outside of a ship likely lacks the firepower to suitably distract an entire army from a single tenno within. 

Edited September 8, 2014 by Imaru12

[Rexlars]

No lore holes here at all. 

 

1. I'm sure the Archwing is fairly heavy. Sure, we're space ninja with uber space magic, but I doubt that thing would be easy to run around with on your back inside the ships.

2. The Archwing looks pretty darn big. Not only would you look stupid running around with it on your back, it's not practical.

3. Gameplay beats lore every time. 

4. Also, we're "surviving" because we are causing a distraction for our fellow Tenno while he raids the enemy's ship. We're doing this from inside the ship because (lore wise) it would keep the enemy frantic & divert any possible attention away from the operative Tenno. The enemy is worried about us rather than thinking there is any possibility of a random guy raiding the ship on one side while 1-4 space ninja are on the other side f*ckin sh*t up.

[CY13ERPUNK]

survival as a thematic design has always been stupid

 

its incredibly counter-intuitive

 

i am glad that the planetoid-based version is getting an overhaul

 

now i would like the space-based version to get an overhaul as well

 

say there is a critical malfunction in the ship's core power reactor? and we have to deliver cooling or fuel rods, or power cores to re-charge or whatevs, thus if you run out of time, that represents the reactor going critical and boom

 

just like the current infested one is about toxic air, but it would be nice if we were grabbing air scrubbers and powering the ventilation system instead of the current lifesupport lines, but whatevs

[Samoth95]

Not much can really be said that hasn't been, but here's a thing...

 

...I'm pretty sure alot of the rooms inside the ships (many, but not all - I'm thinking more of the hallways) would probably not have enough airspace to let a Tenno fly around at high speeds in them without damage to the Archwing or to the ship itself. So we'd be basically lugging around a giant pair of mechanical wings that serve no purpose except to look cool.

[Lunamaniac]

Maybe using our wings indoors is a bad idea.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Survival pods provide oxygen.  Arc wings have oxygen pods built in.

[vaugahn]

Perhaps whatever propulsion system an Arcwing uses doesn't work inside a ship?

[SSI_Kryptix]

Save the lore till U15

[Shehriazad]

In space those wings might not have any weight....but ever thought about how much they actually weigh? Good luck moving through tight tunnels with a ton of metal strapped to your back.


There would be lots of zones where those wings won't allow you to move through in stations etc. Also the wings would need a lot more energy to make you fly (gravity) and thus they might not have enough energy for other systems....well and like I said..lastly the weight.

Those things are made of metal and are constructed to fly you through space, where weight does not matter all that much.

[SSI_Kryptix]

In space those wings might not have any weight....but ever thought about how much they actually weigh? Good luck moving through tight tunnels with a ton of metal strapped to your back.

Its not like you we dont carry heavier stuff. Scindo for all.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

It's all true.  Llyssa, I really appreciate these threads.

 

I believe survival should be some kind of bomb diffuse scenario instead.

[RahuHordika]

Its not like you we dont carry heavier stuff. Scindo for all.

There's the diference between the simple form of an axe and a set of large and complex machinery.

[Shehriazad]

Its not like you we dont carry heavier stuff. Scindo for all.

Have you looked at how massive those wings are?

Their weight would probably be like 10 scindos.

[SilentMobius]

Warframes protect against vacuum, but don't have enough O2 to last for longer than holding your breath. (EG extractions Archwing docking)

Survival represents the environment becoming progressively less O2 rich.

 

Archwing provides O2

 

Simples.

[Suweeka]

Same reason as to why you don't use the Liset as a combat ship: it's impractical and inefficient.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Suweeka

[Llyssa]

For the weight, the wings clearly generate some sort of thrust, it appears to be highly controllable how much thrust they produce, and they clearly produce enough to bear themselves. So talking about their weight is ludicrous--you could likewise say that cars are completely illogical to use in any situation, as they easily weigh 5 tons. That's a logical flaw, though, because the car is not dead weight, but rather moves itself plus the user. So, too, do the wings.

 

As for navigation, we've been shown the wings bend and fold dramatically. It would be remarkably easy, from what we've been shown, to merely have them folded in such a way that they simultaneously do not impede your progress through narrow corridors AND support their own weight. Since they'd already have the tenno carrying part of their weight anyway, they wouldn't need to expend much energy at all--they don't need to make you fly, merely keep themselves from being cumbersome.

 

As far as their propulsion system not working on a ship, that's a curious and plausible notion. Sort of a dismissive hand wave, but would make a bit of sense. If their propulsion cannot work on a ship under any circumstances, then, and ONLY then, would their weight actually matter--but, in that case, the obvious answer would be for us to merely damage the hull in such a way to make them viable. We seem quite capable of that, between broken glass and blowing out walls, so it's still quite questionable logistics.

 

"Gameplay trumps lore" isn't a good answer. It's a right answer, but it doesn't fix the plot hole, just ignores it.

 

The one thing that does come to mind from some of the various responses is perhaps a slight tweak on the rules of survival--that rather than keeping ourselves alive with our LS work, we should be making sure Raider Bob has enough LS to keep going. That would explain things a lot better--why the timer stops when LS runs out(he can't raid anymore! eject! eject! eject!), and why anyone would try that tactic(sending your troops into LS depleted areas to try and kill the angry ninja army doesn't seem inherently wise). It would, perhaps, even make more sense if it was re-labelled as distraction level--as long as we're setting off alarms and yelling in to walkie talkies and blowing up capsules, we are the #1 priority target with all the racket we're making. When the interest level has died down sufficiently that they're searching the rest of the ship, Raider Bob's time is up. The traditional airlock effect at the end wouldn't make sense anymore, but that seems as if it's perhaps negotiable?

 

Amusingly, that would also allow it to make sense in all circumstances--the questions on infested+survival are easily answered(they're just as distracted as anything else), as would the questions of "but... this is a planet." would be answered(still drawing attention), and the all-important "what kind of idiot sends his troops into a life-support-free environment?"(answer: none, they're hunting down the source of that commotion) and "why are we giving them life support when we could just ignore them and they'd die pretty fast?"(they're not, they'd dropping personal communication devices that we're using to up the taunt level).

 

That would also solve the archwing issue--we don't use them there because we don't need them there.

 

All rather wrapped in a neat package that way, really.

[LukeAura]

For the weight, the wings clearly generate some sort of thrust, it appears to be highly controllable how much thrust they produce, and they clearly produce enough to bear themselves. So talking about their weight is ludicrous--you could likewise say that cars are completely illogical to use in any situation, as they easily weigh 5 tons. That's a logical flaw, though, because the car is not dead weight, but rather moves itself plus the user. So, too, do the wings.

If you look at the scale of Archwing missions they seem to be on much larger terms, I'm not sure even the high amount of control is enough to not have you smashing off walls with them in the more restricted inside levels.

And maybe the cooling system is reliant on the frigidness of space to stop Excalibur from over toasting his perfect buns.  

[Gelkor]

Well... Weight doesn't matter in zero G, and so the archwings having sufficient thrust to bear themselves in zero-g doesn't actually mean anything about their ability to handle in-atmosphere in-gravity.  The space shuttle can fly around in orbit/low G, but as soon as it's in lower orbit/atmosphere it basically falls like a rock with minor aerodynamics.

 

That said, it looks like MOST of the archwings are propulsion and weapons, meaning the part of the wing that is an O2 tank is fairly small, so why can't we just have that part as a back-pack?

Edited September 8, 2014 by Gelkor

[Llyssa]

Well... Weight doesn't matter in zero G, and so the archwings having sufficient thrust to bear themselves in zero-g doesn't actually mean anything about their ability to handle in-atmosphere in-gravity.  The space shuttle can fly around in orbit/low G, but as soon as it's in lower orbit/atmosphere it basically falls like a rock with minor aerodynamics.

 

That said, it looks like MOST of the archwings are propulsion and weapons, meaning the part of the wing that is an O2 tank is fairly small, so why can't we just have that part as a back-pack?

On the first part, thrust is related to mass, not weight. They have the same mass in both zero-g and an atmosphere.

 

As far as shuttles, "orbit" is just falling--the shuttle falls, but is moving so fast that it goes over the horizon before it hits the ground. That's why satellites can stay in orbit for decades--no thrust required, just falling at a very well-calculated trajectory. The shuttle can actually fly quite well, but it doesn't store much fuel, and because of how fast you need to be going to do the "fall over the horizon" thing for orbiting, they purposely allow the atmosphere to bring them down to terminal velocity, using air friction+heat shielding(which requires no thrust), and it's also noteworthy that launching a shuttle is quite expensive because of the fuel style used--so, saving space by not having just-barely-enough fuel onboard makes it much cheaper to launch, and, hence, the reason why they generally piggy-back at the end--it's not that they couldn't fly themselves through the atmosphere, but rather that they only took enough fuel to get them up and maneuver around a tiny bit.

 

However, you're right, it doesn't seem like it would be too hard for us to extract the little LS function of the archwing, even if there was some plausible reason we can't take the whole wing.

 

Which, again, is why I'm rather fond of the idea of survival converting to a "level of distraction" rather than a "level of life support".

[Oranji]

During gamescom they said they were going to replace survival mode supposedly with that extractor thing cuz its just stupid to remove oxygen on an entire planet.

When that happens consider survival as if it never existed so no plot holes. Just my opinion **

Lore in this game is pretty shady anyway.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Oranji