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Everyone Knows What's Best For Nekros. Me Too.


BrazilianJoe
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With so many Nekros thread, why the hell not? So I'll just chime in too.

 

The consensus is that Nekros is underperforming. He is basically a walking press-3-to-desecrate-carpal-tunnel-inducing-skill-spam.

 

We are not on a consensus on how to fix it though, so this is my take:

 

A necromancer is supposed to be a minion master. Both terrify and desecrate fall in line with the necromancer too. 

Implementation is flawed though, his skills are underachieving/underwhelming to the point of being forgettable, except for Desecrate, which still has problems. 

 

The idea is to create some skill synergy:

Soul Punch raise lesser shadoeswhich last a limited time (unless their lifetime is extended by other skills) one by one.

Terrify works defensively and allows the player to heal raised minions.

Shadows of the Dead allow shadows to last forever and raises greater shadows (Nekros copies) 

Desecrate grants more everything including energy to make the army last potentially forever. 

 

Detailed descriptions:

 

1) Soul punch. Would paralyze (ragdoll?) a single enemy. If the enemy is killed under the influence, it is raised as a shadow for 30 seconds. 4th skill would be a toggle to sustain shadows, shadows can live indefinitely if 4th skill is active. Shadow power is 15/50/75/100% of the killed enemy power and health. Shadow's life does not regenerate, but can be healed with Terrify.

 

2) Terrify. Summons 3 banshee shade spirits per power level, up to 12. THose spirits keep circling the Nekros. If a melee enemy gets less than 10 meters to it, or Nekros is attacked by ranged attack, one Banshee will go after the enemy and terrify it for 2/10/15/20 seconds (duration moddable). An enemy killed while terrified heals 3/6/9/12% of all raised Shadows health, as the Shadows consume the dead minion's fear (power strength moddable). Cannot be recast until all Banshees go away to terrify someone. 

Tactically, Terrify becomes a defensive 'Terrify shield' which goes along the Nekros and can last as long as no enemies come close to it. Very useful to help raising fallen Tenno for example. 

 

3) Desecrate. Kept mostly as is, except: ALWAYS WORKS. Costs 50 energy + 10 energy per desecrated corpse.

 

4) Shadows of The Dead. TOGGLE ABILITY. Upon casting, summons 1 to 4 Nekros Shadows depending on power level. Each Nekros shadow has an upkeep cost of 2 energy per second. Other raised shadows (by power 1) have an upkeep cost of 1 energy per second. Upkeep cost is efficiency moddable. Nekros shadows behave like specters. Power strength mods increase Nekros shadows damage power. 

Nekros shadows are immortal. If killed, instead of falling to the ground in bleed-out they just dispel. After 5 seconds, Nekros loses 25 energy and a new Nekros shadow is created. 

TOGGLE OFF: Toggling off the skill causes every shadow to be dispelled with a blackbang in a radius around it - think a smaller radius version of Excalibur's flash bang, and creating darkness instead of light. 

 

EDIT: previously I suggested desecrate to as 50+25 per corpse, but since people said it would make the skill useless, I am now suggesting 50 + 10 per desecrated corpse.

Edited by BrazilianJoe
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Terrify should slow enemies and shorter range but no enemy cap.

The only gripe I have with him is that he currently has no proper ability to defend himself if someone were to use a spam build. So i kinda just urge to use him.

Edit: You do realize you can spam Desecrate for less energy right than your proposal? Plus you're only gonna miss 1 or 2 enemy corpse's....

Edited by izzatuw
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I kinda like your ideas (even though we are not sure this game features actual magic or "power of science" so banshees may be too much. 

 

 

 

But for the desecrate there's a big NO. 

 

If you are going to make it work like that, make it cost 25 energy + 5 per corpse. Seems less of a punishment.

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50 energy + 25 energy per corpse ...

stopped reading there, thats just ridicilous.

Since nekros has only 150 energy, he can desecrate 4 enemies at max, or with 75% efficiency he can desecrate only 22 enemies with full energy. Means he will always be constantly low on energy, making quick thinking also useless, which means he cant even survive after 30 minutes anymore

No one will ever use this frame anymore and all farming will become twice as hard from now

a big fat -1

Edited by Frostosti
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I kinda like your ideas (even though we are not sure this game features actual magic or "power of science" so banshees may be too much. 

 

 

 

But for the desecrate there's a big NO. 

 

If you are going to make it work like that, make it cost 25 energy + 5 per corpse. Seems less of a punishment.

The cost is just a placeholder. It currently costs 75 per cast but stubborn corpses require 5+ casts, so I think that it would be kind of similar to the current energy cost. Maybe 15 or 10 per desecrated corpse, but anything lower than that I think would be too low. It's a skill which banks on energy efficiency, remember. 

 

I just think we shouldn't nit pick too much on the actual numbers, otherwise we risk missing the overall design. the exact per-corpse energy cost is a big unknown right now, but should be 'balanced'. 

 

Please take a look on the other skills too and how they go together, I tried to make them useful. 

Edited by BrazilianJoe
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50 energy + 25 energy per corpse ...

stopped reading there, thats just ridicilous.

Since nekros has only 150 energy, he can desecrate 4 enemies at max, or with 75% efficiency he can desecrate only 22 enemies with full energy. Means he will always be constantly low on energy, making quick thinking also useless, which means he cant even survive after 30 minutes anymore

No one will ever use this frame anymore and all farming will become twice as hard from now

a big fat -1

I think you might be forgetting there are tons of useful mods that will make that energy cost come down quite a bit, but i might just be on your side of the fence with this though.

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my biggest problem with nekros is that he is a warframe who is actually designed to combat the RNG in this game WITH MORE RNG!

i dont know how to better explain it to people but when you design something that is to give you more loot so you can farm more effectively then you need to sit down and look at your games loot system again. there is no reason to have something that is to combat the loot system with something that will spawn more loot from your loot system to fight its horrible rates.

(insert yo dawg meme here)

Change your loot system to be something better and give nekros an actual skill instead of making him a loot puppet to fight your horrible loot system.

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Just gonna say this, let's not think about scientific soundness or realistic practicality. He's a necromancer. Nothing realistic about it. Just go wild.

 

Also, the OP's desecrate is not good. People are pissed over the fact that an extra energy cost is added to the amount of damage recieved in Absorb; this is a similar case. When you have a survival mission with bugged spawning rates, you're looking at around 18 enemies in cramped spaces for most of the mission. No matter what the added cost is, you press 3 in that group, you might as well have run into a disruptor. So, don't change it, save the 100% chance to get something. We are not making people stop using it; we are allowing other people to use his other abilities to suit a playstyle.

Edited by R34LM
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...

 

Yes, the RNG tables have problems. But Nekros is not a frame built 'just to combat RNG. It gives us an extra roll on RNG with a single of his skills. 

 

This perception of Nekros being 'just a RNG fighter' is precisely the evidence that it needs improving. 

 

I totally agree with you that RNG needs improvement, but refusing to fix Nekros does not achieve that. These are two separate issues. 

 

 

Also, while RNG needs improving and still a pain in several areas, there have been some things moving away from it in the game. Take the Mirage quest, for example, it has 0 RNG to get the pieces. It is one thing, but it shows DE is listening. 

 

Another thing are the power cell carriers from Extraction. They drop power cells 100% of the time. I have already suggested adding a variant of them on survivals, carrying life support instead. 

 

I think we should keep talking to DE about the RNG issues, but I am already derailing my own thread. I am just giving ideas to improve Nekros right now. 

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A proposal I've seen for Nekros several times is to make Desecrate a toggleable or long duration ability, which desecrates nearby corpses while active.  I still believe that's a good idea, since it'd allow Nekros to focus on fighting/survival instead of just spamming Desecrate.

 

 

Terrify should slow enemies and shorter range but no enemy cap.

 

I've also seen this suggestion before, which I think is a great idea.  It makes no sense that Terrify terrifies a certain number of enemies....and then just stops working on all the other enemies in range.  The slow also helps take down enemies that have been terrified (which Nekros' teammates should certainly like).

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I don't think the Desecrate numbers are right. 50+©25 is utterly rediculous, and given how the battlefield ends up being littered with bodies, that'd take all his energy away in a single cast, making it an unused power, especially for the caster that you want Nekros to be in this thread. However, I DO like the idea of energy per corpse for a successful desecrate, maybe it would be better at 5 per body with no base cost, that seems more reasonable than 50+©25 to me.

 

Also, © means corpses in my mathematical equations above. Always need a variable that makes sense.

EDIT: Well, that c turned into a copyright sign... My bad.

Edited by NoggDog117
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I have updated the number for Desecrate skill cost to not scale as aggressively. 

 

It should still keep a base cost of 75, since it's a level 3 skill, to be balanced with all other level 3 skills in the game. Now it's 60 + 15 per corpse. 

 

Remember that there is Flow to increase max energy, Streamline and other mods which can reduce this cost to 25% of its default. 

 

Caster frames would have heavily energy-oriented builds. 

Edited by BrazilianJoe
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Yes, the RNG tables have problems. But Nekros is not a frame built 'just to combat RNG. It gives us an extra roll on RNG with a single of his skills. 

 

This perception of Nekros being 'just a RNG fighter' is precisely the evidence that it needs improving. 

 

I totally agree with you that RNG needs improvement, but refusing to fix Nekros does not achieve that. These are two separate issues. 

 

 

Also, while RNG needs improving and still a pain in several areas, there have been some things moving away from it in the game. Take the Mirage quest, for example, it has 0 RNG to get the pieces. It is one thing, but it shows DE is listening. 

 

Another thing are the power cell carriers from Extraction. They drop power cells 100% of the time. I have already suggested adding a variant of them on survivals, carrying life support instead. 

 

I think we should keep talking to DE about the RNG issues, but I am already derailing my own thread. I am just giving ideas to improve Nekros right now. 

i didnt mean it as not to fix nekros, im sure there are better ways to make him really awesome, they could take a page from Diablo 2.

but most people know him as the RNG fighter because really he is the number one frame called for when we need to find a mod that was made so rare that its impossible to get it without him.

id really just like to see a brand new skill to replace desecrate instead of just reworking it because i really cant think of anything that can fix it without still making it the crutch we all have to lean on.

i honestly would give him a skill called essence eruption. basically its a reverse effect of corpse explosion but instead of using a corpse you have a live host. almost like what Baal does the the emissary in the intro to D2 LoD.

i would like to see what souls i have stored if i have army of the dead equipped. i would also make power strength affect how tough the enemies are instead of how many enemies you can reanimate.

Terrify should Root CC and stun enemies instead of making them run off at light speed. how long the CC is should be govern by duration if its not already.

Soul punch is interesting but id rather see it become soul tear. you rip the soul out of the enemies draining its essence into yourself. does a small aoe. and you get life and energy from a based upon the damage. he is a necromancer after all.

just my ideas anyways.

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I have proposed a redesigned Terrify with a different structure from 'press 2 for area denial' because:

 

1) it's boring.

2) There are already so many skills like that, it would be too much cookie-cutter. 

 

I got inspiration on Nova's little orbiting balls. It's a  defensive-offensive skill in her case. In Nekro's case, the banshees would heal the shadows when the victim is killed. The banshees when orbiting Nekros don't have a duration, they are a 'Terrify shield', which moves with Nekros.  I see most coments fixated only on the 'scare the enemy' part., but these are all awesome advantages. Having unlimited targets would make it too powerful for a level 2.

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the problem is not that nekros is underperforming per se

 

but the problem is that desecrate is a HORRIBLY BORING AWFUL POWER

 

but since the game is 99% RNG, desecrate is also an incredibly powerful ability

 

this is the problem, so players are pigeonholed into using the most boring/awful power in the game, just to try to get a 2nd chance at drop table rolls

 

its freakin terrible

 

additionally virtually every single one of nekros powers has a pro/con effect for range/duration/power/etc, thus trying to min-max him is very difficult without gimping 2-3 of his powers, and his powers aren't even that great to begin with (besides desecrate's insanity)

 

IMHO soul punch should create short lived shadows with a duration

 

terrify shouldn't tgt limit based on power, but have a set # of tgts based on rank

 

SotD shadows should be perma until they are killed, or until nekros uses the power again to summon a new set

 

i think desecrate should be changed to a toggle on ability and it should have an 80% chance to roll the health orb, then a 40% chance on the loot roll

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I think we need to either give every Warframe the potential to use something like Desecrate (via sentinels, gear, etc.) or remove it entirely as it's just too useful to assign to one Warframe.  Farming is at the core of Warframe, and Nekros is the best at farming.  Therefore, you will need a Nekros in all your farming missions to get the most out of them.  That's just a false choice.  Why, in a game with 20 (20+ if you count the primes) Warframes should we be forced into playing one of them every mission we go out farming?

 

And I know, I know, "but you shouldn't ever pick efficiency over fun, just play the game you want to play, if you don't want to play Nekros, don't!"  But honestly, Nekros gives as much fun as he takes in that it'll only take me 1 hour to get the mod I want with him when it would have taken me 2 hours, which is a bit more frustrating.  That's more of a problem with RNG though, and who knows whether I'm just beating a dead horse...

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I don't think adding AoE or instakill to any level 1 is balanced, if you look at the design of other level 1 skills.

(Mirage is not balanced, her level 1 is crazy)

 

And no skill does instakill in this game, it's only damage up to X amount.

 

Terrify could root the enemies in their place instead of sending them scuttling away, I'd be cool with that. It would add a risk to the Nekros player, since staying in place (such as when reviving) risks having that bunch of enemies getting back into action on close quarters. 

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I understand the feeling of some community members that Nekros shouldn't do RNG rerolling at all, and even sympathize with the opinion of moving a desecrate-like power to a sentinel - maybe a less powerful version. 

 

BUT, I am trying to keep closer to the template so that some of it has a better chance of being considered by DE. 

 

Trying to move Desecrate to a sentinel or just plainly removing it is a much taller order. I just don't believe it will ever happen, so I am trying to suggest improvements on the realm of which I believe they can actually happen. 

 

All opinions respected though, let's talk!

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I don't think adding AoE or instakill to any level 1 is balanced, if you look at the design of other level 1 skills.

(Mirage is not balanced, her level 1 is crazy)

 

And no skill does instakill in this game, it's only damage up to X amount.

 

Terrify could root the enemies in their place instead of sending them scuttling away, I'd be cool with that. It would add a risk to the Nekros player, since staying in place (such as when reviving) risks having that bunch of enemies getting back into action on close quarters. 

i didnt design it as a insta kill, it was deigned to drain the enemy of its life force feeding it into nekros. most of the time you are experiencing over kill is doing lower level missions.

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I understand the feeling of some community members that Nekros shouldn't do RNG rerolling at all, and even sympathize with the opinion of moving a desecrate-like power to a sentinel - maybe a less powerful version. 

 

BUT, I am trying to keep closer to the template so that some of it has a better chance of being considered by DE. 

 

Trying to move Desecrate to a sentinel or just plainly removing it is a much taller order. I just don't believe it will ever happen, so I am trying to suggest improvements on the realm of which I believe they can actually happen. 

 

All opinions respected though, let's talk!

the thing is though is, its time to stop being lazy about stuff and start actually cracking down.

desecrate is a horrible crutch, it will be continued to be relied on so long as its in play, kinda like nova back before it was change dramatically. now its in a better place and plays well.

but i dont think there is an option to rework it into playing nice with the game.

im not usually a no hope person, but for this i have to make an exception. but who knows, there have been tons of surprises going on for me this week in my gaming life... maybe DE will take part in it too and do something amazing. but imma stick by my guns for now this time.

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I think that one day Desecrate may no longer spawn mods and other rare drops. But I'm OK with it dropping health, energy and ammo. 

 

This downgrade would warrant reducing Desecrate to level 2 skill though, costing 45 energy + 5 per desecrated corpse. 

 

And upgrading terrify to a level 3 skill would also warrant giving it more power. Unlimited targets, rooting enemies unable to shoot, increase damage taken.

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